'Four Women' is an interesting backdrop and/or lens into this and my guess is that reactions would not be as strong were race/politics not such a large part of Simone's life and work.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
It seems a lot of people are now demanding that the same entertainment industry which marginalised and ostracised Simone because of her refusal to compromise ought now to be telling the truth about the way in which they marginalised and ostracised, etc., etc.
I don't associate her with Hollywood or that particular machine. Her obstacles were not unique for that era and bigger than the music or entertainment industry. She also dealt with them in a very personal, unique and direct manner. I can see why people - including Simone's daughter - are taking Saldana as Simone the way they are, why an open letter like that was written. Simone's music and story is very personal for a lot of people - the casting choice stings in a way that, as an example, Beyonce as Etta James didn't.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
No, I agree with all that. But what I can't figure out here is why people seem to be expecting/demanding so much from a Hollywood biopic. Hollywood rarely treats this kind of subject matter with anything resembling honesty, much less integrity, so I wonder why so many people feel an exception should be made for Nina Simone. The real story of Nina Simone is in the music, and since the movie's clearly fucking doomed anyway, it'd be simpler to just ignore it altogether. That's what I did with The Iron Lady. I had absolutely no interest in seeing a Hollywood version of Margaret Thatcher's reign - living through the real thing was quite enough.
I think they should make a movie about trying to find someone to play Nina Simone.
They could intersperse the personal/political politics of choosing an actress with accounts of the personal/political politics of her career and life.
They could intersperse screen tests of actress imitating her singing with actual riveting performances by Nina Simone.
The real story of Nina Simone is in the music, and since the movie's clearly fucking doomed anyway, it'd be simpler to just ignore it altogether.
true, but she lived a fascinating life. from the vanguard of the civil rights movement, to affairs with world leaders to her private battle with bi-polar disorder and her on-stage haughtiness, there is alot of dramatic material there but you just know it's not going to be done with any class or depth. it's going to be some glamourized, pedantic hollywood bullshit.
how the hell do you recreate something like this scene?
can anyone here name any biopic on a musician's life that even comes close to capturing the essence of the artist?
I think they should make a movie about trying to find someone to play Nina Simone.
They could intersperse the personal/political politics of choosing an actress with accounts of the personal/political politics of her career and life.
They could intersperse screen tests of actress imitating her singing with actual riveting performances by Nina Simone.
The Art?
The Personal life?
The Legend/Public perception?
good question, unfortunately i am not exactly sure what i meant. maybe it is all of those things, mabe there is no such thing as an essence or soul to a person or that it is in a state of contant flux...again, i don't what it is i am talking about.
i guess i should have just said that the genre known as "bio-pic" is inherently fucked up. even in documentaries i cringe when they do re-enactments (except for "thin blue line").
I don't want to get into whether Ray was a good movie or not, but I will say that what I watched and what I hear/feel when I listen to him did not connect. I realize that everyone has a different relationship with an artist and her/his art, but there must be a common thread, no matter how thin and/or tenuous that all fans can associate with the musical experience.
Even as someone who isn't a fan of country music and knew nothing about Loretta Lynn before watching CMD, what I saw and later listened to were related. What shaped her music and career that compels fans, draws them in and keeps them was captured on film.
As with so many things, I feel like this doesn't come down to a question of Doing A Thing The Right Way v. Doing A Thing The Wrong Way, but rather Doing A Thing v. Not Doing A Thing. Straight up, a movie about Nina Simone is not going to get made in 2012 without yielding to commercial concerns, whether that means simplifying her story, toning down her rhetoric, depicting her as light-skinded, all of the above, etc.
What it comes down to, then, is at what point The General Populace Knowing About The Real Nina Simone becomes less important than to The General Populace Knowing About Nina Simone At All. And that's a line that each one of us draws within ourself.
I generally have really low expectations for bio films, so I tend toward the opinion that, hey, anything that might make some multiplex patron cop a Nina Simone cd when they otherwise would not is a step in the right direction. I can understand why folks get heated about this kind of thing, though, even if I myself do not.
It may also be worth noting that, since one of Nina Simone's strongest hooks among a not-inconsiderable portion her white listenership is rooted in their romanticization of her capital-B Blackness, the apparent aesthetic concession represented by The Saldana Gambit could easily backfire, resulting in a Nina that is neither substantively black enough for a lot of black folks nor superficially black enough for a lot of white folks.
I'll be surprised if this movie succeeds on any level, actually.
I don't want to get into whether Ray was a good movie or not, but I will say that what I watched and what I hear/feel when I listen to him did not connect. I realize that everyone has a different relationship with an artist and her/his art, but there must be a common thread, no matter how thin and/or tenuous that all fans can associate with the musical experience.
Even as someone who isn't a fan of country music and knew nothing about Loretta Lynn before watching CMD, what I saw and later listened to were related. What shaped her music and career that compels fans, draws them in and keeps them was captured on film.
Do you think you might have been more receptive to Coal Miner's Daughter precisely because you weren't a fan and knew nothing about her?
I know that I'm generally more open when being exposed to new things and a lot harder to please when watching something that concerns an artist or genre that I'm familiar with.
Coal Miners Daughter was just a better movie than Ray.
Loretta Lynn had already reduced her life story down to a few simple story lines (poorest of the poor, naive, nervous breakdown, loves Doo). Likewise she only recorded one type of music for one audience.
Ray Charles' life and career was longer and more complicated.
I don't want to get into whether Ray was a good movie or not, but I will say that what I watched and what I hear/feel when I listen to him did not connect. I realize that everyone has a different relationship with an artist and her/his art, but there must be a common thread, no matter how thin and/or tenuous that all fans can associate with the musical experience.
Even as someone who isn't a fan of country music and knew nothing about Loretta Lynn before watching CMD, what I saw and later listened to were related. What shaped her music and career that compels fans, draws them in and keeps them was captured on film.
Do you think you might have been more receptive to Coal Miner's Daughter precisely because you weren't a fan and knew nothing about her?
I know that I'm generally more open when being exposed to new things and a lot harder to please when watching something that concerns an artist or genre that I'm familiar with.
Yea, for sure. But I was definitely a fan of The Sex Pistols and Factory Records going into Sid & Nancy and 24HPP and thought those films were well-done.
Admittedly, they live in a different place in my life than Nina Simone does....
I doubt I'll watch the Simone film. Same way I couldn't really bring myself to watch the Ian Curtis film (though I heard it was well-done). I already have my personal relationship with these artists and music, I am not sure I want that input or interpretation to interfere.
I think that he was alive while it was being made might have had something to do with it...not sure how involved he was.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
SIRUS said:
the ian curtis was not as good as 24 hr party people. beautifully shot though.
See, now I felt the opposite, although that probably has a lot to do with my being a teenager in the North West of England when many of the events depicted in those movies took place.
Much as I enjoyed 24 Hour Party People, to me it was more like a Tony Wilson biopic rather than The Factory Records Story (although it was that, too - just to a much lesser extent). I liked Tony Wilson enormously, and I'd have been happy enough to watch something that actually sold itself as a Tony Wilson biopic in any event, so I didn't feel in any way shortchanged by it.
I liked Control because it seemed like a genuine attempt to explore the myth that had emerged in the years since Curtis had died (and had arguably become the James Dean of the Urban Outfitters generation), and Corbijn's intimate knowledge of the subject matter enabled him to do that in a way that would have been beyond any other director. The fact that he framed it as a love story rather than a rock biopic gave it a broader appeal without cheesing it out, and made it more accessible to people like my girl, who knew nothing about Joy Division or Ian Curtis, and not a great deal about New Order either. She loved it, and wanted to hear more of the music right away, which kind of echoes one of the things james was saying about Nina Simone upthread.
I enjoyed 24HPP for the same reasons as Doc. I was expecting it to resemble an Alan Partridge special but when you look at how the real story unfolded, in equal parts inspired and shambolic, there has to be sly humour in there. It was possible to take a shine to Wilson, I had empathy for him and always found that he had a vision for the label; a direction in which he wanted it to be seen and to be taken in, even if the acts were unaware of their role in it or frankly unable to meet his expectations of them. I mean, how far can you carry a team of professional shoplifters?
I've not seen "Control" as I can't take a shine to Curtis. I know the story, but was never Joy Division's biggest fan. They kind of remind me of the worst aspects of The Fall and Echo and The Bunnymen with a touch of Lydon. Shame he went out that way, and all that, but wasn't a band I could identify with, or to be cold, be interested in.
I think, given the complexity of Nina's character, that she may have been hard to take a shine to, too. Not to doubt the integrity of her work, but it's got to be a hard pitch when the bottom line, entertainment accountants are running the studios.
I'll bet that's the composition of most flicks out of Hollywood tho. Like, who was the team behind Ray or that James Brown one from last year? (I still haven't seen either BTW - any good?)
The Don Cheadle "Miles Ahead" project could get no shine in Hollywood until they got a white supporting actor (Ewan McGregor) on board.
The reality (with which we must deal) is : Forget about accuracy with Hollywood. They won't put any product out there without sexing it up.
it's "All publicity is good publicity" that wins out, and if the bottom line is an increased profile or interest in the real artist behind the cinematic charicature, then so be it.
One day folks will cut out the big studios in the same way kids with software and youtube have cut out the major lablels. But until then...
Comments
They could intersperse the personal/political politics of choosing an actress with accounts of the personal/political politics of her career and life.
They could intersperse screen tests of actress imitating her singing with actual riveting performances by Nina Simone.
true, but she lived a fascinating life. from the vanguard of the civil rights movement, to affairs with world leaders to her private battle with bi-polar disorder and her on-stage haughtiness, there is alot of dramatic material there but you just know it's not going to be done with any class or depth. it's going to be some glamourized, pedantic hollywood bullshit.
how the hell do you recreate something like this scene?
can anyone here name any biopic on a musician's life that even comes close to capturing the essence of the artist?
I would actually really like to see that.
Not so much a musician as a scene, I thought 24hr Party People was decent.
Sid & Nancy, too.
And not knowing too much about that world, I loved Coal Miner's Daughter.
The Art?
The Personal life?
The Legend/Public perception?
good question, unfortunately i am not exactly sure what i meant. maybe it is all of those things, mabe there is no such thing as an essence or soul to a person or that it is in a state of contant flux...again, i don't what it is i am talking about.
i guess i should have just said that the genre known as "bio-pic" is inherently fucked up. even in documentaries i cringe when they do re-enactments (except for "thin blue line").
Even as someone who isn't a fan of country music and knew nothing about Loretta Lynn before watching CMD, what I saw and later listened to were related. What shaped her music and career that compels fans, draws them in and keeps them was captured on film.
I'm kinda rambling, huh?
What it comes down to, then, is at what point The General Populace Knowing About The Real Nina Simone becomes less important than to The General Populace Knowing About Nina Simone At All. And that's a line that each one of us draws within ourself.
I generally have really low expectations for bio films, so I tend toward the opinion that, hey, anything that might make some multiplex patron cop a Nina Simone cd when they otherwise would not is a step in the right direction. I can understand why folks get heated about this kind of thing, though, even if I myself do not.
It may also be worth noting that, since one of Nina Simone's strongest hooks among a not-inconsiderable portion her white listenership is rooted in their romanticization of her capital-B Blackness, the apparent aesthetic concession represented by The Saldana Gambit could easily backfire, resulting in a Nina that is neither substantively black enough for a lot of black folks nor superficially black enough for a lot of white folks.
I'll be surprised if this movie succeeds on any level, actually.
I know that I'm generally more open when being exposed to new things and a lot harder to please when watching something that concerns an artist or genre that I'm familiar with.
Loretta Lynn had already reduced her life story down to a few simple story lines (poorest of the poor, naive, nervous breakdown, loves Doo). Likewise she only recorded one type of music for one audience.
Ray Charles' life and career was longer and more complicated.
Yea, for sure. But I was definitely a fan of The Sex Pistols and Factory Records going into Sid & Nancy and 24HPP and thought those films were well-done.
Admittedly, they live in a different place in my life than Nina Simone does....
I doubt I'll watch the Simone film. Same way I couldn't really bring myself to watch the Ian Curtis film (though I heard it was well-done). I already have my personal relationship with these artists and music, I am not sure I want that input or interpretation to interfere.
See, now I felt the opposite, although that probably has a lot to do with my being a teenager in the North West of England when many of the events depicted in those movies took place.
Much as I enjoyed 24 Hour Party People, to me it was more like a Tony Wilson biopic rather than The Factory Records Story (although it was that, too - just to a much lesser extent). I liked Tony Wilson enormously, and I'd have been happy enough to watch something that actually sold itself as a Tony Wilson biopic in any event, so I didn't feel in any way shortchanged by it.
I liked Control because it seemed like a genuine attempt to explore the myth that had emerged in the years since Curtis had died (and had arguably become the James Dean of the Urban Outfitters generation), and Corbijn's intimate knowledge of the subject matter enabled him to do that in a way that would have been beyond any other director. The fact that he framed it as a love story rather than a rock biopic gave it a broader appeal without cheesing it out, and made it more accessible to people like my girl, who knew nothing about Joy Division or Ian Curtis, and not a great deal about New Order either. She loved it, and wanted to hear more of the music right away, which kind of echoes one of the things james was saying about Nina Simone upthread.
I've not seen "Control" as I can't take a shine to Curtis. I know the story, but was never Joy Division's biggest fan. They kind of remind me of the worst aspects of The Fall and Echo and The Bunnymen with a touch of Lydon. Shame he went out that way, and all that, but wasn't a band I could identify with, or to be cold, be interested in.
I think, given the complexity of Nina's character, that she may have been hard to take a shine to, too. Not to doubt the integrity of her work, but it's got to be a hard pitch when the bottom line, entertainment accountants are running the studios.
Zoe Saldana actually doesn't do a bad job. I still feel that Danai Gurira should have gotten this role.
- Spidey
http://jezebel.com/meet-the-team-behind-nina-1762401564?utm_medium=sharefromsite&utm_source=Jezebel_twitter
I'll bet that's the composition of most flicks out of Hollywood tho. Like, who was the team behind Ray or that James Brown one from last year?
(I still haven't seen either BTW - any good?)
The reality (with which we must deal) is : Forget about accuracy with Hollywood. They won't put any product out there without sexing it up.
it's "All publicity is good publicity" that wins out, and if the bottom line is an increased profile or interest in the real artist behind the cinematic charicature, then so be it.
One day folks will cut out the big studios in the same way kids with software and youtube have cut out the major lablels. But until then...