Worst part in that nyt article is where he insinuates music journo and dj rosenberg should not question minaj' artistic direction because hes white and shes black.
Worst part in that nyt article is where he insinuates music journo and dj rosenberg should not question minaj' artistic direction because hes white and shes black.
I'm not sure what you read but that's not how the following statement reads to me:
"The idea that art and commerce are at odds is a remnant of an old culture war: dogma presented as forward-thinking but really just protecting an outmoded status quo, leading to the unusual and very modern spectacle of a white man deriding a black woman for insufficiently upholding hip-hop values."
One could quibble about whether this unusual or not (I don't think it is, actually). It may not be particularly modern either - I'm sure one can find examples of this going back a ways. But if the suggestion is that there's something notable about how race plays out, I think that's a fair observation to point out.
the unusual and very modern spectacle of a white man deriding a black woman for insufficiently upholding hip-hop values
I'm sorry but its hard to read this any other way - the implication is pretty blatant.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
rootlesscosmo said:
staxwax said:
you gotta draw the line somewhere. pop isn't rap.
That's debatable. In many respects pop is rap nowadays, and has been for some time, no matter how much people want to treat that old Tribe lyric as one of the 10 Commandments. Of course, that isn't the whole picture - it never is - but still some folks are acting as if rap's domination of the landscape of popular music is a terrible cultural betrayal of blahblahblah, and that the extent to which this does or doesn't bother you is somehow a measure of you as a human being. But does any of this invalidate whatever music you or I or anyone else happen to think is good and/or important? No. So what are the complainers really complaining about? What happened to "my world don't stop"?
wack is wack.
OK, fine. But is anyone really calling Starships a rap record? Seriously? Or is the idea of a pop record made by a rapper that hard for some of them to get to grips with? I mean, I can take or leave Nicki Minaj on the whole. She doesn't offend me though, and besides I don't think I've heard Starships more than twice tops, but this is some bullshit - people getting upset about how something they don't like happens to be popular. It's like getting angry over Justin Bieber.
Effectively, what you have here are people with marginal (i.e., underground) tastes complaining that their tastes are still considered marginal and don't dominate the mainstream and blahblahblah shit is fucked up yo yadayadayada. Because, if that isn't the case, then why do they even give a fuck whether someone like Nicki Minaj does rap, pop, free jazz or black metal? What difference does it make to them? I wonder if, in between arrogating the right to decide what music people should or shouldn't like, it ever occurs to someone like Rosenberg that it's only thanks to the Nicki Minaj's of this world that he's able to assert his supposedly superior taste - "I only like that real shit" - in the first place. Because, if all that "fake shit" got washed away, what would he use as a yardstick then?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
staxwax said:
the unusual and very modern spectacle of a white man deriding a black woman for insufficiently upholding hip-hop values
I'm sorry but its hard to read this any other way - the implication is pretty blatant.
I'd say that "self-appointed (white male) gatekeeper of idiomatically black art form attacks black female practitioner of aforesaid artform for not being 'black' enough" is as close to a Cliffs Notes version of it as we're going to get for the time being. Unless there's a more nuanced way of reading it which has got past me, in which case the floor is yours.
I'd say an established and respected music journalist is free to voice their opinion on an artists output without race cards being pulled, or assertions that a critics personal taste disallows them to voice their opinion on the musical direction of a style or artist. Its a valid opinion.
It has nothing to do with being black or white, mainstream or underground. If you want to inject pop sensibilities into a specific musical genre, you can get called on it by critics. Refusing to perform, pulling the race card or demanding apologies because someone dares critique you is ridiculous.
the unusual and very modern spectacle of a white man deriding a black woman for insufficiently upholding hip-hop values
I'm sorry but its hard to read this any other way - the implication is pretty blatant.
I thought it was a salient point, and succinct. Dude is good enough to tip his cap to the recent Onion-Rabin debate.
Here's the thing: Maybe DJ has a point. But the big summer fest, where the big rap pop act should be playing, is not the venue for that debate.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
white_tea said:
staxwax said:
the unusual and very modern spectacle of a white man deriding a black woman for insufficiently upholding hip-hop values
I'm sorry but its hard to read this any other way - the implication is pretty blatant.
I thought it was a salient point, and succinct. Dude is good enough to tip his cap to the recent Onion-Rabin debate.
Here's the thing: Maybe DJ has a point. But the big summer fest, where the big rap pop act should be playing, is not the venue for that debate.
Yeah, exactly. Tiresome as Rabin's bellyaching is, at least he isn't trying to act like the Hip-Hop Police.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
DjWillderness said:
nicki went pop and make a wack song. rosenberg called her out on it. he's totally right. i would say the exact same thing.
Who on here actually rode for Nicki before she went pop?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
staxwax said:
Worst part in that nyt article is where he insinuates music journo and dj rosenberg should not question minaj' artistic direction because hes white and shes black.
Worst part in that nyt article is where he insinuates music journo and dj rosenberg should not question minaj' artistic direction because hes white and shes black.
Welcome to [strike]hip-hop 1973-2012.[/strike] the New York Times' take on hip-hop 2012.
fixt
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
staxwax said:
Worst part in that nyt article is where he insinuates music journo and dj rosenberg should not question minaj' artistic direction because hes white and shes black.
Welcome to [strike]hip-hop 1973-2012.[/strike] the New York Times' take on hip-hop 2012.
fixt
It's the other way around, buddy. White faces are allowed today to speak on hip-hop way more than they used to. But nonetheless, I agree that there are limits on what a white, non-artist should be throwing out there at black artists. And I know this first hand because I lived it for many years. So yeah, a black dude saying the same exact thing that Rosenberg said would be taken more seriously. And that's not necessarily how I would personally design it all to be...it's just the way it is.
That's debatable. In many respects pop is rap nowadays, and has been for some time, no matter how much people want to treat that old Tribe lyric as one of the 10 Commandments. Of course, that isn't the whole picture - it never is - but still some folks are acting as if rap's domination of the landscape of popular music is a terrible cultural betrayal of blahblahblah, and that the extent to which this does or doesn't bother you is somehow a measure of you as a human being. But does any of this invalidate whatever music you or I or anyone else happen to think is good and/or important? No. So what are the complainers really complaining about? What happened to "my world don't stop"?
wack is wack.
OK, fine. But is anyone really calling Starships a rap record? Seriously? Or is the idea of a pop record made by a rapper that hard for some of them to get to grips with? I mean, I can take or leave Nicki Minaj on the whole. She doesn't offend me though, and besides I don't think I've heard Starships more than twice tops, but this is some bullshit - people getting upset about how something they don't like happens to be popular. It's like getting angry over Justin Bieber.
Effectively, what you have here are people with marginal (i.e., underground) tastes complaining that their tastes are still considered marginal and don't dominate the mainstream and blahblahblah shit is fucked up yo yadayadayada. Because, if that isn't the case, then why do they even give a fuck whether someone like Nicki Minaj does rap, pop, free jazz or black metal? What difference does it make to them? I wonder if, in between arrogating the right to decide what music people should or shouldn't like, it ever occurs to someone like Rosenberg that it's only thanks to the Nicki Minaj's of this world that he's able to assert his supposedly superior taste - "I only like that real shit" - in the first place. Because, if all that "fake shit" got washed away, what would he use as a yardstick then?
You took my quotes out of context, but it looks like you were merely using them in an attempt to make a larger point, so fair play.
I find both Minaj and Rosenberg buffoonish. I've never (to my knowledge heard) "Starships." I stand by my remark that the quality hip-hop "tent" doesn't expand indefinitely; somewhere a line is drawn. And it doesn't necessarily expand as far as Nicki Minaj -- even if the NYT says it does/should.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
rootlesscosmo said:
DocMcCoy said:
rootlesscosmo said:
staxwax said:
you gotta draw the line somewhere. pop isn't rap.
That's debatable. In many respects pop is rap nowadays, and has been for some time, no matter how much people want to treat that old Tribe lyric as one of the 10 Commandments. Of course, that isn't the whole picture - it never is - but still some folks are acting as if rap's domination of the landscape of popular music is a terrible cultural betrayal of blahblahblah, and that the extent to which this does or doesn't bother you is somehow a measure of you as a human being. But does any of this invalidate whatever music you or I or anyone else happen to think is good and/or important? No. So what are the complainers really complaining about? What happened to "my world don't stop"?
wack is wack.
OK, fine. But is anyone really calling Starships a rap record? Seriously? Or is the idea of a pop record made by a rapper that hard for some of them to get to grips with? I mean, I can take or leave Nicki Minaj on the whole. She doesn't offend me though, and besides I don't think I've heard Starships more than twice tops, but this is some bullshit - people getting upset about how something they don't like happens to be popular. It's like getting angry over Justin Bieber.
Effectively, what you have here are people with marginal (i.e., underground) tastes complaining that their tastes are still considered marginal and don't dominate the mainstream and blahblahblah shit is fucked up yo yadayadayada. Because, if that isn't the case, then why do they even give a fuck whether someone like Nicki Minaj does rap, pop, free jazz or black metal? What difference does it make to them? I wonder if, in between arrogating the right to decide what music people should or shouldn't like, it ever occurs to someone like Rosenberg that it's only thanks to the Nicki Minaj's of this world that he's able to assert his supposedly superior taste - "I only like that real shit" - in the first place. Because, if all that "fake shit" got washed away, what would he use as a yardstick then?
You took my quotes out of context, but it looks like you were merely using them in an attempt to make a larger point, so fair play.
I find both Minaj and Rosenberg buffoonish. I've never (to my knowledge heard) "Starships." I stand by my remark that the quality hip-hop "tent" doesn't expand indefinitely; somewhere a line is drawn. And it doesn't necessarily expand as far as Nicki Minaj -- even if the NYT says it does/should.
I think that's a point worth making, although I'd question how clear or rigid that line actually is. There was an interview with Muggs in Rap Pages during the 90s where he wrong-footed the interviewer by saying, actually he respected Hammer because Hammer came out dancing and never pretended to be anything he wasn't. Ditto when Will Smith was still calling himself The Fresh Prince, I don't recall there being an especially heated debate about how "real" he was, and this was the same time as PE came out, give or take a few months. There was room in the tent for both those acts at one point, and even if people thought JJ & the FP were a little bit corny or tame, nobody was going to lead a crusade against them. That kind of Taliban-ass bullshit is a comparatively recent development.
It ought to be obvious that Nicki's buffoonery is a persona, an exaggerated, cartoon-y, Jessica-Rabbit-meets-Grace-Jones-gone-Manga kind of thing. Her recent musical direction reflects that, and as bassie nicely articulated further back, it's not the full measure of her capabilities in any event. Some of her earlier mixtape stuff wasn't bad. But that's beside the point. Not everyone's going to like that kind of thing, and nor should they feel they ought to (although when they're expressing their dislike, they might want to consider what the language they use says about them). But I get the impression that you and staxwax read that NYT piece as some kind of diktat, and I don't think that's the case at all. Rather it was arguing in favour of the principle that hip-hop should be able to accommodate "multiple ideas and micromovements and polarities." In other words, the kind of plurality that's rooted in the so-called "golden age" values that Rosenberg would have us believe he's a standard-bearer for. Which would be fine, except he's nothing of the sort.
That's debatable. In many respects pop is rap nowadays, and has been for some time, no matter how much people want to treat that old Tribe lyric as one of the 10 Commandments. Of course, that isn't the whole picture - it never is - but still some folks are acting as if rap's domination of the landscape of popular music is a terrible cultural betrayal of blahblahblah, and that the extent to which this does or doesn't bother you is somehow a measure of you as a human being. But does any of this invalidate whatever music you or I or anyone else happen to think is good and/or important? No. So what are the complainers really complaining about? What happened to "my world don't stop"?
wack is wack.
OK, fine. But is anyone really calling Starships a rap record? Seriously? Or is the idea of a pop record made by a rapper that hard for some of them to get to grips with? I mean, I can take or leave Nicki Minaj on the whole. She doesn't offend me though, and besides I don't think I've heard Starships more than twice tops, but this is some bullshit - people getting upset about how something they don't like happens to be popular. It's like getting angry over Justin Bieber.
Effectively, what you have here are people with marginal (i.e., underground) tastes complaining that their tastes are still considered marginal and don't dominate the mainstream and blahblahblah shit is fucked up yo yadayadayada. Because, if that isn't the case, then why do they even give a fuck whether someone like Nicki Minaj does rap, pop, free jazz or black metal? What difference does it make to them? I wonder if, in between arrogating the right to decide what music people should or shouldn't like, it ever occurs to someone like Rosenberg that it's only thanks to the Nicki Minaj's of this world that he's able to assert his supposedly superior taste - "I only like that real shit" - in the first place. Because, if all that "fake shit" got washed away, what would he use as a yardstick then?
You took my quotes out of context, but it looks like you were merely using them in an attempt to make a larger point, so fair play.
I find both Minaj and Rosenberg buffoonish. I've never (to my knowledge heard) "Starships." I stand by my remark that the quality hip-hop "tent" doesn't expand indefinitely; somewhere a line is drawn. And it doesn't necessarily expand as far as Nicki Minaj -- even if the NYT says it does/should.
I think that's a point worth making, although I'd question how clear or rigid that line actually is. There was an interview with Muggs in Rap Pages during the 90s where he wrong-footed the interviewer by saying, actually he respected Hammer because Hammer came out dancing and never pretended to be anything he wasn't. Ditto when Will Smith was still calling himself The Fresh Prince, I don't recall there being an especially heated debate about how "real" he was, and this was the same time as PE came out, give or take a few months. There was room in the tent for both those acts at one point, and even if people thought JJ & the FP were a little bit corny or tame, nobody was going to lead a crusade against them. That kind of Taliban-ass bullshit is a comparatively recent development.
It ought to be obvious that Nicki's buffoonery is a persona, an exaggerated, cartoon-y, Jessica-Rabbit-meets-Grace-Jones-gone-Manga kind of thing. Her recent musical direction reflects that, and as bassie nicely articulated further back, it's not the full measure of her capabilities in any event. Some of her earlier mixtape stuff wasn't bad. But that's beside the point. Not everyone's going to like that kind of thing, and nor should they feel they ought to (although when they're expressing their dislike, they might want to consider what the language they use says about them). But I get the impression that you and staxwax read that NYT piece as some kind of diktat, and I don't think that's the case at all. Rather it was arguing in favour of the principle that hip-hop should be able to accommodate "multiple ideas and micromovements and polarities." In other words, the kind of plurality that's rooted in the so-called "golden age" values that Rosenberg would have us believe he's a standard-bearer for. Which would be fine, except he's nothing of the sort.
I agree that hip-hop should be able to accommodate "multiple ideas and micromovements and polarities."
I was never arguing that Minaj isn't hip-hop (though much of her music may not be.)
I would say she isn't good hip-hop though, nor good music of any genre.
Rosenberg would be hard pressed to argue that she isn't hip-hop either (this allegedly pop song of hers notwithstanding).
When he says "real hip hop," he means "'real' hip hop." It's shorthand for the hip-hop he actually likes, though his dumbass may not himself appreciate this.
I don't get it. So she made a song that he wasnt really feeling...
How come nobody got mad at snoop dogg when he did that katy perry record? Or the upteenth boyband record that he jumped on the remix. Is that cause the game is to be sold, not to be told? Or is that backwards...I cant remember anyone being like "see you later snoop, it was nice having you in hip hop"
Anyways, it was an obvious diss and a silly one. I don't see why its a problem for any artist to make pop records and then turn around and make "hardcore" rap records. Lil wayne's single before last was essentially an acoustic guitar ballad...so what?
Kanye, Drake, Nicki, Wayne and them can go outside the boundaries all they want, but shit isnt Hip Hop and dont front and extend those boundaries because thay can rap.
Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five have an R&B song on the The Message album. That is not HIP HOP.
Kane singing "Im Not afraid " w/ Barry White is NOT Hip Hop.
Bizmarkie singing Benny and The Jets is NOT HIP HOP.
This morning they continued to ride this beef and Rosenberg said "Real Hip Hop"..... and then played Protect Your Neck.
The curatorial decisions made over their at that station is on some puerile level shit.
Kanye, Drake, Nicki, Wayne and them can go outside the boundaries all they want, but shit isnt Hip Hop and dont front and extend those boundaries because thay can rap.
Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five have an R&B song on the The Message album. That is not HIP HOP.
Kane singing "Im Not afraid " w/ Barry White is NOT Hip Hop.
Bizmarkie singing Benny and The Jets is NOT HIP HOP
I didn't think anyone was claiming that her pop record was hip hop. It's clearly a pop song. I thought the divide was whether she can ever again label herself hip hop, now she's released such a purely pop song.
Is she now just a pop act who raps? Is that what you're saying Kanye & Wayne are too? Drake fair enough but the other two I wouldn't agree on.
Comments
she was never going to pop off in this incarnation.
I'm not sure what you read but that's not how the following statement reads to me:
"The idea that art and commerce are at odds is a remnant of an old culture war: dogma presented as forward-thinking but really just protecting an outmoded status quo, leading to the unusual and very modern spectacle of a white man deriding a black woman for insufficiently upholding hip-hop values."
One could quibble about whether this unusual or not (I don't think it is, actually). It may not be particularly modern either - I'm sure one can find examples of this going back a ways. But if the suggestion is that there's something notable about how race plays out, I think that's a fair observation to point out.
I'm sorry but its hard to read this any other way - the implication is pretty blatant.
That's debatable. In many respects pop is rap nowadays, and has been for some time, no matter how much people want to treat that old Tribe lyric as one of the 10 Commandments. Of course, that isn't the whole picture - it never is - but still some folks are acting as if rap's domination of the landscape of popular music is a terrible cultural betrayal of blahblahblah, and that the extent to which this does or doesn't bother you is somehow a measure of you as a human being. But does any of this invalidate whatever music you or I or anyone else happen to think is good and/or important? No. So what are the complainers really complaining about? What happened to "my world don't stop"?
OK, fine. But is anyone really calling Starships a rap record? Seriously? Or is the idea of a pop record made by a rapper that hard for some of them to get to grips with? I mean, I can take or leave Nicki Minaj on the whole. She doesn't offend me though, and besides I don't think I've heard Starships more than twice tops, but this is some bullshit - people getting upset about how something they don't like happens to be popular. It's like getting angry over Justin Bieber.
Effectively, what you have here are people with marginal (i.e., underground) tastes complaining that their tastes are still considered marginal and don't dominate the mainstream and blahblahblah shit is fucked up yo yadayadayada. Because, if that isn't the case, then why do they even give a fuck whether someone like Nicki Minaj does rap, pop, free jazz or black metal? What difference does it make to them? I wonder if, in between arrogating the right to decide what music people should or shouldn't like, it ever occurs to someone like Rosenberg that it's only thanks to the Nicki Minaj's of this world that he's able to assert his supposedly superior taste - "I only like that real shit" - in the first place. Because, if all that "fake shit" got washed away, what would he use as a yardstick then?
I'd say that "self-appointed (white male) gatekeeper of idiomatically black art form attacks black female practitioner of aforesaid artform for not being 'black' enough" is as close to a Cliffs Notes version of it as we're going to get for the time being. Unless there's a more nuanced way of reading it which has got past me, in which case the floor is yours.
It has nothing to do with being black or white, mainstream or underground. If you want to inject pop sensibilities into a specific musical genre, you can get called on it by critics. Refusing to perform, pulling the race card or demanding apologies because someone dares critique you is ridiculous.
I thought it was a salient point, and succinct. Dude is good enough to tip his cap to the recent Onion-Rabin debate.
Here's the thing: Maybe DJ has a point. But the big summer fest, where the big rap pop act should be playing, is not the venue for that debate.
Yeah, exactly. Tiresome as Rabin's bellyaching is, at least he isn't trying to act like the Hip-Hop Police.
Who on here actually rode for Nicki before she went pop?
Welcome to hip-hop 1973-2012.
fixt
It's the other way around, buddy. White faces are allowed today to speak on hip-hop way more than they used to. But nonetheless, I agree that there are limits on what a white, non-artist should be throwing out there at black artists. And I know this first hand because I lived it for many years. So yeah, a black dude saying the same exact thing that Rosenberg said would be taken more seriously. And that's not necessarily how I would personally design it all to be...it's just the way it is.
You took my quotes out of context, but it looks like you were merely using them in an attempt to make a larger point, so fair play.
I find both Minaj and Rosenberg buffoonish. I've never (to my knowledge heard) "Starships." I stand by my remark that the quality hip-hop "tent" doesn't expand indefinitely; somewhere a line is drawn. And it doesn't necessarily expand as far as Nicki Minaj -- even if the NYT says it does/should.
Sorry, I was not clear - when I said same amount of cash, I was referring to a fuckload, not same as what they could make doing the regular shtick.
Nicki Minaj/Flex interview
I think that's a point worth making, although I'd question how clear or rigid that line actually is. There was an interview with Muggs in Rap Pages during the 90s where he wrong-footed the interviewer by saying, actually he respected Hammer because Hammer came out dancing and never pretended to be anything he wasn't. Ditto when Will Smith was still calling himself The Fresh Prince, I don't recall there being an especially heated debate about how "real" he was, and this was the same time as PE came out, give or take a few months. There was room in the tent for both those acts at one point, and even if people thought JJ & the FP were a little bit corny or tame, nobody was going to lead a crusade against them. That kind of Taliban-ass bullshit is a comparatively recent development.
It ought to be obvious that Nicki's buffoonery is a persona, an exaggerated, cartoon-y, Jessica-Rabbit-meets-Grace-Jones-gone-Manga kind of thing. Her recent musical direction reflects that, and as bassie nicely articulated further back, it's not the full measure of her capabilities in any event. Some of her earlier mixtape stuff wasn't bad. But that's beside the point. Not everyone's going to like that kind of thing, and nor should they feel they ought to (although when they're expressing their dislike, they might want to consider what the language they use says about them). But I get the impression that you and staxwax read that NYT piece as some kind of diktat, and I don't think that's the case at all. Rather it was arguing in favour of the principle that hip-hop should be able to accommodate "multiple ideas and micromovements and polarities." In other words, the kind of plurality that's rooted in the so-called "golden age" values that Rosenberg would have us believe he's a standard-bearer for. Which would be fine, except he's nothing of the sort.
Actually, you're right. At least Nicki Minaj's persona is her own creation.
I agree that hip-hop should be able to accommodate "multiple ideas and micromovements and polarities."
I was never arguing that Minaj isn't hip-hop (though much of her music may not be.)
I would say she isn't good hip-hop though, nor good music of any genre.
Rosenberg would be hard pressed to argue that she isn't hip-hop either (this allegedly pop song of hers notwithstanding).
When he says "real hip hop," he means "'real' hip hop." It's shorthand for the hip-hop he actually likes, though his dumbass may not himself appreciate this.
How come nobody got mad at snoop dogg when he did that katy perry record? Or the upteenth boyband record that he jumped on the remix. Is that cause the game is to be sold, not to be told? Or is that backwards...I cant remember anyone being like "see you later snoop, it was nice having you in hip hop"
Anyways, it was an obvious diss and a silly one. I don't see why its a problem for any artist to make pop records and then turn around and make "hardcore" rap records. Lil wayne's single before last was essentially an acoustic guitar ballad...so what?
Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five have an R&B song on the The Message album. That is not HIP HOP.
Kane singing "Im Not afraid " w/ Barry White is NOT Hip Hop.
Bizmarkie singing Benny and The Jets is NOT HIP HOP.
This morning they continued to ride this beef and Rosenberg said "Real Hip Hop"..... and then played Protect Your Neck.
The curatorial decisions made over their at that station is on some puerile level shit.
Is she now just a pop act who raps? Is that what you're saying Kanye & Wayne are too? Drake fair enough but the other two I wouldn't agree on.
this shit right here is so off the chain.
So far it has been working out pretty well for my.