Best soundcard for recording on a budget...

JectWon

I've been recording my drum kit by simply using headphones as a mic through the mic-in on my mixer...I think I've made the most of that and I'm ready to get a little more quality and control out of my recording methods...multiple mic lines, etc...

I've seen some fairly cheap m-audio external soundcards that have multiple line in's but wasn't sure if they are any good. The reviews look decent.

I only have a budget of 100$...I know that is really light and I know in tech you get what you pay for, but coming from my current method, I have a feeling anything will sound like a huge improvement.

Any advice would be apreciated...

Delay

JectWon said:

I only have a budget of 100$

you'll need about 3x that to get anything with multiple inputs. you also need some good mics.

JectWon

Thanks for the input...I've definitely noticed that the multi-input option is more expensive. This looks perfect and although it's twice the price, I might get lucky on a decent used one...I dunno does anyone have any experience with these?

Re: Mics...I figure that is a whole 'nother beast which I'll have to tackle down the road.



edit: sorry for the massive pic...

Delay

JectWon said:

Thanks for the input...I've definitely noticed that the multi-input option is more expensive. This looks perfect and although it's twice the price, I might get lucky on a decent used one...I dunno does anyone have any experience with these?



edit: sorry for the massive pic...

i would definitely go the used route, but look into MOTU stuff. best bang for your buck, and its all compatible with the newer protools

Brian

Pretty sure that doesn't have preamps.

z_illa

JectWon said:

does anyone have any experience with these?

I've used the 44 for probably 12 years, I have 2 1010s in my main rig now. I'm sure their are a ton of haters out there but they do the job for me. My sound quality has much more to do with what I'm smoking than my converters...

No preamps for those mics though.

Brian

Possum Tom said:

MOTU stuff

if the m-audio was suitable for you i/o-wise then this is a good motu equivalent:

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/4pre

ultimately your signal chain works on some weakest link shit so a $100ish interface for recording drums is not going to deliver pristine audio. if you wanna just record yourself jamming out or whatever, i wouldn't bother laying out serious coin but realize that $100 is not going to get you multiple ins with preamps

smoking_robot

you dont really want an "internal soundcard" as much as you want a decent AD/DA converter.

if you have a mac - apogee's duet is nice as an AD/DA but it is $600 which isnt exactly low budget but your AD/DA is one of the most important parts* of your signal chain recording analog bringing it in to digital.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Duet2/

*there's a lot of other really important parts too unfortunately. almost everything is important.

these guys make really amazing botique AD/DA: www.blacklionaudio.com

smoking_robot

JectWon said:

Thanks for the input...I've definitely noticed that the multi-input option is more expensive. This looks perfect and although it's twice the price, I might get lucky on a decent used one...I dunno does anyone have any experience with these?

Re: Mics...I figure that is a whole 'nother beast which I'll have to tackle down the road.



edit: sorry for the massive pic...

these guys make really nice affordable mics: http://www.gauge-usa.com/

as far as drums, get yourself some dynamic mics (shure sm-57's are solid solid affordable dynamic mics)

for room mics, gauge makes a U87 knockoff that has great reviews.

z_illa

smoking_robot said:

*there's a lot of other really important parts too unfortunately. almost everything is important.

Except that none of it is. Ahh the twisted world of audiophiles/engineers. We are a conflicted bunch.

JectWon

Possum Tom said:

i would definitely go the used route, but look into MOTU stuff. best bang for your buck, and its all compatible with the newer protools

Thanks for the advice everyone...

And sorry for the laymen questions, but I'm assuming the pre-amp shit everyone is talking about gives me more volume?

This MOTU 4PRE looks pretty tuff-duty but it's way more than I can swing...

smoking_robot

JectWon said:

Possum Tom said:

i would definitely go the used route, but look into MOTU stuff. best bang for your buck, and its all compatible with the newer protools

Thanks for the advice everyone...

And sorry for the laymen questions, but I'm assuming the pre-amp shit everyone is talking about gives me more volume?

This MOTU 4PRE looks pretty tuff-duty but it's way more than I can swing...

its a little bit more than just volume per se.

also when you're recording, keep an eye on your signal peaks - you dont want your signal coming in where its clipping or peaking -1 dBs say, you want your peaks between -12 and -6. that will give you headroom to EQ/compress etc etc. PM me if you have any other questions

smoking_robot

z_illa said:

smoking_robot said:

*there's a lot of other really important parts too unfortunately. almost everything is important.

Except that none of it is. Ahh the twisted world of audiophiles/engineers. We are a conflicted bunch.

Hahaha. exactly. it's a constant state of flux unfortunately going back and forth between both sides pretty much all the time.

Delay

JectWon said:

Possum Tom said:

i would definitely go the used route, but look into MOTU stuff. best bang for your buck, and its all compatible with the newer protools

Thanks for the advice everyone...

And sorry for the laymen questions, but I'm assuming the pre-amp shit everyone is talking about gives me more volume?

This MOTU 4PRE looks pretty tuff-duty but it's way more than I can swing...

that's the bare minimum if you ask me

JectWon

smoking_robot said:

its a little bit more than just volume per se.

also when you're recording, keep an eye on your signal peaks - you dont want your signal coming in where its clipping or peaking -1 dBs say, you want your peaks between -12 and -6. that will give you headroom to EQ/compress etc etc. PM me if you have any other questions

Thanks, dude. I really appreciate that. When I'm done with work, I'll send you the specs of what I'm working with and get your thoughts what my next move could potentially be.

Thanks again, everyone for the insight.

djwaxon

Just to echo what everyone else says, you might be better thinking about a realistic budget for everything (mics/audio IO/preamp/desk if required) as to get any sort of non-awful sound these will all need to be considered.

Something to possibly consider rather than seperate pre-amps and audio IO would be a desk with USB connection, such as the Allen & Heath Z series (if i remember correctly) - but you're talking a fair bit over $100 (I think)

Also worth thinking about how you're going to mic up the kit, as this affectes how many of everything is needed.

All probably thoughts for further down the line though.

Snagglepus

djwaxon said:

Also worth thinking about how you're going to mic up the kit, as this affectes how many of everything is needed.

With this (and your budget) in mind, have you thought about just focusing on 2 mic recordings until you're at a point when you can afford to step up to 4 or more channels? I'm pretty sure that Gabe Roth recorded the 1st Sharon Jones record using just 2 mics on the drums (1 on the kick and another pulled back a bit pointed at the snare). My band has had some decent results with a similar setup. And there are tons of 2 channel interfaces in the $100-$200 range that have halfway decent mic pres (certainly a step up from what you're doing now).

Horseleech

Snagglepus said:

djwaxon said:

Also worth thinking about how you're going to mic up the kit, as this affectes how many of everything is needed.

With this (and your budget) in mind, have you thought about just focusing on 2 mic recordings until you're at a point when you can afford to step up to 4 or more channels? I'm pretty sure that Gabe Roth recorded the 1st Sharon Jones record using just 2 mics on the drums (1 on the kick and another pulled back a bit pointed at the snare). My band has had some decent results with a similar setup. And there are tons of 2 channel interfaces in the $100-$200 range that have halfway decent mic pres (certainly a step up from what you're doing now).

Led Zeppelin used the two-mic approach to recording the drums, most notably on 'When The Levee Breaks"

smoking_robot

article by Gabe Roth on his recording techiniques - download both PDFs, a great read IMO.

http://westtownrecording.com/2010/05/shitty-is-pretty-anatomy-of-a-heavy-funk-45-by-gabriel-roth/

part 1 is song construction, part 2 covers recording

4YearGraduate

Horseleech said:

Snagglepus said:

djwaxon said:

Also worth thinking about how you're going to mic up the kit, as this affectes how many of everything is needed.

With this (and your budget) in mind, have you thought about just focusing on 2 mic recordings until you're at a point when you can afford to step up to 4 or more channels? I'm pretty sure that Gabe Roth recorded the 1st Sharon Jones record using just 2 mics on the drums (1 on the kick and another pulled back a bit pointed at the snare). My band has had some decent results with a similar setup. And there are tons of 2 channel interfaces in the $100-$200 range that have halfway decent mic pres (certainly a step up from what you're doing now).

Led Zeppelin used the two-mic approach to recording the drums, most notably on 'When The Levee Breaks"

I think you are referring to the Glyn Johns Method, in which case you the right mics, great preamps and a solid understanding of theory and technique will go a long way.

http://homerecording.about.com/od/recordingtutorials/a/glyn_johns.htm

http://en.wikiaudio.org/Recording_techniques:Drum_kit

Remember, audio moves at a fixed speed so distance from sound source is crucial to minimize phasing. I always use a measruing tape when micng drums.

Snagglepus

smoking_robot said:

article by Gabe Roth on his recording techiniques - download both PDFs, a great read IMO.

http://westtownrecording.com/2010/05/shitty-is-pretty-anatomy-of-a-heavy-funk-45-by-gabriel-roth/

part 1 is song construction, part 2 covers recording

Always a fun read.

"Don't use more than two mics on the drums. It's very "professional" looking, but it sounds unnatural."

I'd be very surprised if he still lives by that rule (or for that matter, much of what he says in the article) but it's a great primer for low budget recording.

JectWon

smoking_robot said:

article by Gabe Roth on his recording techiniques - download both PDFs, a great read IMO.

http://westtownrecording.com/2010/05/shitty-is-pretty-anatomy-of-a-heavy-funk-45-by-gabriel-roth/

part 1 is song construction, part 2 covers recording

I actually read that article a while back and love the 'shitty is pretty' approach. It's what motivated me to say 'fuck it I'm using these headphones as a mic'...and it served me well.

And as others have said (given my pathetic budget) I could easily go the 2 line-in pre-amp route and it looks like I'll have to.

I was thinking 4 mics would be nice to have one on the kick drum, one on the snare, one on the high hat and one on the ride....one day.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice, the articles and the education on pre-amp.

JectWon

4YearGraduate said:

http://homerecording.about.com/od/recordingtutorials/a/glyn_johns.htm

http://en.wikiaudio.org/Recording_techniques:Drum_kit

Remember, audio moves at a fixed speed so distance from sound source is crucial to minimize phasing. I always use a measruing tape when micng drums.

Printing this out as I post this very sincere 'thank you'. This shit is awesome.

Part of me is compelled to go the 'head baffle technique' route just so I can be like "I'm on that head baffle technique...that hbt"

4YearGraduate

Lol, I say shit like that all the time in the studio to the chagrin of the people I'm usually working with.
I get all extra hip hop - AHH SHIT WE HOOKIN UP THAT MUTHERFUCKIN PHANTOM POWER NOW BITCH 48 VOLTS ON THAT AZZ. MUTHAFUCKIN GLYN JOHN TIME BITCH! Emo dudes dont have a good sense of humor usually and they think i'm serious because i don't need to put lotion on my legs just to get my jeans on.

BOUT TO SMOKE A DECCA TREE UP IN THIS BITCH

Snagglepus

JectWon said:

And as others have said (given my pathetic budget) I could easily go the 2 line-in pre-amp route and it looks like I'll have to.

In addition to being more affordable, it's probably a great learning tool to work with just 2 mics for a while. As Gabe states in the article (and as Thes alluded to a few posts back), mic placement makes a huge difference and really requires a lot of experimentation. With only 2 mics to work with, any change to either of the mics (that could be position, type of mic, input level, etc) will be much easier to notice. Jumping into using four mics right away means working with a lot more variables at once.

And, of course, you need only listen to a few early Desco/Soul Fire/Daptone releases to know that you can get some damned good drum sounds with only 2 mics.

JectWon

4YearGraduate said:

Lol, I say shit like that all the time in the studio to the chagrin of the people I'm usually working with.
I get all extra hip hop - AHH SHIT WE HOOKIN UP THAT MUTHERFUCKIN PHANTOM POWER NOW BITCH 48 VOLTS ON THAT AZZ. MUTHAFUCKIN GLYN JOHN TIME BITCH! Emo dudes dont have a good sense of humor usually and they think i'm serious because i don't need to put lotion on my legs just to get my jeans on.

BOUT TO SMOKE A DECCA TREE UP IN THIS BITCH

"aye' hipster...you have one cardiod condenser mic out this bitch, and you are going the one mic in front of the kit route n'shit...how high above the floor will you place that bitch!? You don't know do you...'the fuck outta my lab son....and take your beret and suspenders with you"

____

Alright Strut. 1000 thank you's. I asked and ya'll came through in spades. I have reading material, education, brand suggestions and open invitations to continue to ask ppl's about what the fuck I'm doing.

This site kicks ass. I will find a way to repay the favor one day.

smoking_robot

JectWon said:

smoking_robot said:

its a little bit more than just volume per se.

also when you're recording, keep an eye on your signal peaks - you dont want your signal coming in where its clipping or peaking -1 dBs say, you want your peaks between -12 and -6. that will give you headroom to EQ/compress etc etc. PM me if you have any other questions

Thanks, dude. I really appreciate that. When I'm done with work, I'll send you the specs of what I'm working with and get your thoughts what my next move could potentially be.

Thanks again, everyone for the insight.

yah man send it over, i'd be glad to give it listen. and i'm sure there's a handful of us on here who can do some engineering post recording magic on it as well. *puts on wizard hat and cape*

JectWon

smoking_robot said:

JectWon said:

smoking_robot said:

its a little bit more than just volume per se.

also when you're recording, keep an eye on your signal peaks - you dont want your signal coming in where its clipping or peaking -1 dBs say, you want your peaks between -12 and -6. that will give you headroom to EQ/compress etc etc. PM me if you have any other questions

Thanks, dude. I really appreciate that. When I'm done with work, I'll send you the specs of what I'm working with and get your thoughts what my next move could potentially be.

Thanks again, everyone for the insight.

yah man send it over, i'd be glad to give it listen. and i'm sure there's a handful of us on here who can do some engineering post recording magic on it as well. *puts on wizard hat and cape*

Haha, thanks man! I actually meant that I could send you the specs of my computer to see what you might think of where to start beefing up my recording shit. The only raw track of what my drums currently sound like is (unfortunately) on myspace. It's the second track "dustyazzbreak..." http://www.myspace.com/bazacoproject Any advice would be appreciated. It's old but my drum recordings still sound about like this...

Lumin

why not get one of these?
http://tascam.com/product/dp-008/
or the 4 track version
http://tascam.com/product/dp-004/

i see guitar center has a used dp004 for $70. you could learn how to mic properly and learn how to multitrack the good old way.

smoking_robot

JectWon said:

smoking_robot said:

JectWon said:

smoking_robot said:

its a little bit more than just volume per se.

also when you're recording, keep an eye on your signal peaks - you dont want your signal coming in where its clipping or peaking -1 dBs say, you want your peaks between -12 and -6. that will give you headroom to EQ/compress etc etc. PM me if you have any other questions

Thanks, dude. I really appreciate that. When I'm done with work, I'll send you the specs of what I'm working with and get your thoughts what my next move could potentially be.

Thanks again, everyone for the insight.

yah man send it over, i'd be glad to give it listen. and i'm sure there's a handful of us on here who can do some engineering post recording magic on it as well. *puts on wizard hat and cape*

Haha, thanks man! I actually meant that I could send you the specs of my computer to see what you might think of where to start beefing up my recording shit. The only raw track of what my drums currently sound like is (unfortunately) on myspace. It's the second track "dustyazzbreak..." http://www.myspace.com/bazacoproject Any advice would be appreciated. It's old but my drum recordings still sound about like this...

the change up at 0.29 is ill. just listened on laptop speakers which isnt a good monitoring system, but you're at least getting a nice distinct sound from the kit, its not super muddy at low volumes coming out of laptop speakers.

as for specs - thats fine too. to be honest, i do all my home demo stuff on some of the worst gear imaginable and since i dont have a drum kit, i dont need to worry much about that. but when i need stuff to be made that is going to be released, i'll re-record everything when i have access to the equipment i need. but even budget home recording has a lower limit - sure you could just use the built in mic on a laptop, but as far as getting really good clear recordings using the drums as an example, you wont be able to capture the feel of the kick necessarily (the low frequency thump) or the sheen of a crash cymbal.

but the majority of music listeners dont even realize what to listen for, so poor quality recordings may not even bother them at all.

i mean, at the end of the day - if you're happy with how it sounds - then you've achieved what you want. to hear the imperfections has taken me a while of devoting myself to listening to music in a completely different fashion than i had grown accustomed to. at times it kind of feels like it hinders your creative process, worrying about sonic integrity, but at other times it allowed me to achieve a lot more creatively as well.

as for listening, i kind of wish we were taught in public schools how to properly listen to music from both a creative standpoint and from a technical standpoint. we probably wouldnt have had to go through this long stretch of "Over-compress and limit EVERYTHING".

/blogrant

StoneHands

I hate recording drums.
Its only after I do, I realize how much I don't know about engineering.