I haven't heard this, but if they only sampled a grunt, how can the publisher have a case? Don't publishing copyrights cover lyrics and melody only?
Whoever owns the masters would have a good case though, I believe.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
Otis_Funkmeyer said:
I haven't heard this, but if they only sampled a grunt, how can the publisher have a case? Don't publishing copyrights cover lyrics and melody only?
Whoever owns the masters would have a good case though, I believe.
It seems more of a master issue than a publishing one, but it's not for the issuing record company to decide that. In a similar position at my old gig, I'd have at least put in a courtesy call to the publisher to say that we didn't believe the use was substantial enough to warrant a share of the publishing copyright, and give them the option to agree or disagree. In many cases, the publishers would disagree and push for a share, but they own the rights so whaddyagonnado?
In any event, this is pretty careless work by whoever it was (L&B, marketing, whoever) that was assigned to clear this album, especially when you consider who was involved.
Numero group had a post about this on their blog which has since been removed.
From what I can remember
- Numero handles the publishing and getting money for Syl
- Numero was approached by Def Jam to clear that sample for The Joy
- Numero thought it was all over since they released The Joy as a free song, they put their effort into getting it off any money making avenues.
- Numero was surprised it showed up in the deluxe version; hence the law suit
Syl Johnson Vs Kanye West/Jay-Z
August 23, 2011, 2:35 pm
Filed under: Syl Johnson | Tags: Jay-Z, Kanye West, Syl Johnson, Watch The Throne
It???s been almost twenty years since Cypress Hill issued their Black Sunday LP, a great record but not lacking in uncleared samples. One of those was for Syl Johnson???s ???Is It Because I???m Black.??? Two decades and several lawsuits later, Syl Johnson is a veteran of copyright infringement cases, and has done very well for himself clearing samples from his fertile catalog (we???re glad to say we???ve helped him with a few) for use in numerous tracks. He???s been amply paid, as he is quick to boast in his concerts, by acts like Wu-Tang Clan, Kid Rock, and Michael Jackson. Other performers??? have not been so respectful.
Last summer we took a call from Syl wondering if we knew anything about his vocal appearing in Kanye West???s ???The Joy,??? which had been making the rounds on the internet via Kanye???s ???Good Fridays??? series. We approached the sampling house clearing the record (whom we???ve worked with on several projects) about getting it cleared. They weren???t sure what was happening with the track, but it was rumored to be included on a deluxe version of his upcoming album My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. About three weeks before MBDTF was to be released, we got a frantic email requesting the immediate clearance of the track. After a little negotiating, we came to a price and a verbal agreement (one that is completely standard.) Paperwork to confirm all of this was to arrive for counter signature. Weeks passed. Then months. No deluxe version appeared in the market place, and our emails and phone calls to Def Jam???s business affairs department went unanswered. We spent the better part of five months trying to get paid, and finally handed it to our lawyer who recommended not pursuing legal action as the song wasn???t actually being sold. Syl could have filed a more complex suit involving the use of his voice to promote the #1 album, but decided against it. Eventually Kanye was going to want to clear some other part of our catalog, and we???d get Syl his money with leverage. With only a non-binding email to solidify the terms, we began the arduous process of having the song removed from money making channels like You Tube, for which Syl was seeing nothing. We thought the song was dead and moved on. It happens all the time.
Late last night, we received a phone call from Syl???who was nearly in tears???asking if we knew why The Numero Group appeared in the credits to a new Kanye West/Jay Z album called Watch The Throne. We had no idea. The credits mis-identify Numero as the publisher of the sampled song (???Different Strokes???), which of course we are not, and any routine search of the BMI database would show otherwise. Wondering why we weren???t consulted on this new use, and baffled why we appear in the credits, for which we never asked, we contacted the sample clearance house. Even they cannot get a response from their own clients. Island Def Jam seems to think that Syl doesn???t have any fight left in him. We???re betting otherwise.
*May* face a lawsuit. Purely speculation, but wondering, since that initial post was removed, if maybe 'Ye's people got in touch with Sly's people and are going to head this off at the pass before an actual suit gets filed.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
"Now you want to sue me, but fans never boo me, believe I know the times we been broke too, g."
"Kanye West argues, ???It???s time for us to stop and re-define black power.??? Shawn Carter, declares, ???Power to the people, ???when you see me, see you.??? But who exactly are the self-crowned Kings of Hip Hop seeing when they re-define Black Power in their track Murder to Excellence as, ??? black tie, black Maybachs. ??? opulence, decadence. Tuxes next to the president??? ? Even with references to Malcolm X and Fred Hampton, and music samples from Nina Simone and Curtis Mayfield, it appears as though visions of pride and power in their album Watch The Throne is not the sort of ???Black Power??? that activists and culture-makers of yesteryear would recognize."
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
IMO Jay-Z's and Kanye's supposed take on "black power" breeds wannabe idiots who pretend they are moguls in the rap/fashion game as they take half-assed, non-committal stances on political issues just to vanely position themselves as something other than substance-lacking, materialistic nincompoops. These dudes' steez on anything beyond their own hands is merely a self-reflecting mirror. Bitches is what we call these folks down in Texas.
I didn't know the Syleena Johnson singing on "All falls down" is Syl's daughter. That makes this even more perplexing. Kanye may have been under the impression it was cleared, but still...
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
Yeah, in my experience, very few artists at that level get directly involved in the clearances. Although in Kanye's case, I wouldn't rule it out.
"Kanye West argues, ???It???s time for us to stop and re-define black power.??? Shawn Carter, declares, ???Power to the people, ???when you see me, see you.??? But who exactly are the self-crowned Kings of Hip Hop seeing when they re-define Black Power in their track Murder to Excellence as, ??? black tie, black Maybachs. ??? opulence, decadence. Tuxes next to the president??? ? Even with references to Malcolm X and Fred Hampton, and music samples from Nina Simone and Curtis Mayfield, it appears as though visions of pride and power in their album Watch The Throne is not the sort of ???Black Power??? that activists and culture-makers of yesteryear would recognize."
Jesus. They're ENTERTAINERS. Ridiculously wealthy ones at that. Anyone dumb enough to look at these dudes and expect/hope for them to lead a revolution or even (re)define any cultural movement needs to stop complaining and start making sure their kids know the difference between a movement and a "movement." Yes I've heard these dudes rap about Black Power over their years, but their overall theme of "hustling" and "every man for himself" has been much louder and much more clearer than any pseudo-activist stances they've made. That should be obvious to anybody save maybe some younger listeners.
"Kanye West argues, ???It???s time for us to stop and re-define black power.??? Shawn Carter, declares, ???Power to the people, ???when you see me, see you.??? But who exactly are the self-crowned Kings of Hip Hop seeing when they re-define Black Power in their track Murder to Excellence as, ??? black tie, black Maybachs. ??? opulence, decadence. Tuxes next to the president??? ? Even with references to Malcolm X and Fred Hampton, and music samples from Nina Simone and Curtis Mayfield, it appears as though visions of pride and power in their album Watch The Throne is not the sort of ???Black Power??? that activists and culture-makers of yesteryear would recognize."
Jesus. They're ENTERTAINERS. Ridiculously wealthy ones at that. Anyone dumb enough to look at these dudes and expect/hope for them to lead a revolution or even (re)define any cultural movement needs to stop complaining and start making sure their kids know the difference between a movement and a "movement." Yes I've heard these dudes rap about Black Power over their years, but their overall theme of "hustling" and "every man for himself" has been much louder and much more clearer than any pseudo-activist stances they've made. That should be obvious to anybody save maybe some younger listeners.
Please don't jump down everyone's throat everytime something you like is found to be problematic and/or unprincipled.
Everyone has different expectations from their artists.
I would suggest owning the fact that you like what you do. This type of reaction is so unecessary.
Muhammad. If you hate talking about music, why are you on this Board? People have been DISCUSSING, analysing and theorizing about pop culture, entertainment, music, musicians, content and quality from time. You want to take it at face value, that's up to you. Others want to look at it a little deeper and from a different angle, there's nothing wrong with that.
Please don't jump down everyone's throat everytime something you like is found to be problematic and/or unprincipled.
Everyone has different expectations from their artists.
I would suggest owning the fact that you like what you do. This type of reaction is so unecessary.
Muhammad. If you hate talking about music, why are you on this Board? People have been DISCUSSING, analysing and theorizing about pop culture, entertainment, music, musicians, content and quality from time. You want to take it at face value, that's up to you. Others want to look at it a little deeper and from a different angle, there's nothing wrong with that.
I wasn't talking to YOU. (Unless you wrote that article.) I was referring to the article at hand and the people - mostly non-Strutters - who are always complaining about these two dudes and their high dollar raps.
And you're right, there's nothing wrong with in-depth discussions on here. After all, that's what the core of the board is. I just get bugged when folks are so damn negative with it. Lighten up a little, folks!
Actually, Bassie, if you did write that or if you posted it because it's in line with your feelings and beliefs, then I apologize if my response came off as dramatic and harsh. I thought you were just posting that since it's related to the discussion and I in no way meant to disrespect you. Sorry.
I wouldn't call it a big one but the deal is that Numero Group has been a cool label so far. I really enjoy their releases and they way they go about their business.
I went back and listened to "The Joy" a little while ago and "Different Strokes" figures prominently.
There's really no two ways about this shit... it's 2011. Clear the sample or don't use it. Or youtube/whitelabel it. Don't put it on your gaudy ass, goldleaf covered blockbuster summer album where you rap about your gazillions of dollars.
Beatnicholas
1,005 Posts
Comments
Whoever owns the masters would have a good case though, I believe.
It seems more of a master issue than a publishing one, but it's not for the issuing record company to decide that. In a similar position at my old gig, I'd have at least put in a courtesy call to the publisher to say that we didn't believe the use was substantial enough to warrant a share of the publishing copyright, and give them the option to agree or disagree. In many cases, the publishers would disagree and push for a share, but they own the rights so whaddyagonnado?
In any event, this is pretty careless work by whoever it was (L&B, marketing, whoever) that was assigned to clear this album, especially when you consider who was involved.
true, amended title. seems like numero are helping him though, and I think some people on here work for them.
From what I can remember
- Numero handles the publishing and getting money for Syl
- Numero was approached by Def Jam to clear that sample for The Joy
- Numero thought it was all over since they released The Joy as a free song, they put their effort into getting it off any money making avenues.
- Numero was surprised it showed up in the deluxe version; hence the law suit
Syl Johnson Vs Kanye West/Jay-Z
August 23, 2011, 2:35 pm
Filed under: Syl Johnson | Tags: Jay-Z, Kanye West, Syl Johnson, Watch The Throne
It???s been almost twenty years since Cypress Hill issued their Black Sunday LP, a great record but not lacking in uncleared samples. One of those was for Syl Johnson???s ???Is It Because I???m Black.??? Two decades and several lawsuits later, Syl Johnson is a veteran of copyright infringement cases, and has done very well for himself clearing samples from his fertile catalog (we???re glad to say we???ve helped him with a few) for use in numerous tracks. He???s been amply paid, as he is quick to boast in his concerts, by acts like Wu-Tang Clan, Kid Rock, and Michael Jackson. Other performers??? have not been so respectful.
Last summer we took a call from Syl wondering if we knew anything about his vocal appearing in Kanye West???s ???The Joy,??? which had been making the rounds on the internet via Kanye???s ???Good Fridays??? series. We approached the sampling house clearing the record (whom we???ve worked with on several projects) about getting it cleared. They weren???t sure what was happening with the track, but it was rumored to be included on a deluxe version of his upcoming album My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. About three weeks before MBDTF was to be released, we got a frantic email requesting the immediate clearance of the track. After a little negotiating, we came to a price and a verbal agreement (one that is completely standard.) Paperwork to confirm all of this was to arrive for counter signature. Weeks passed. Then months. No deluxe version appeared in the market place, and our emails and phone calls to Def Jam???s business affairs department went unanswered. We spent the better part of five months trying to get paid, and finally handed it to our lawyer who recommended not pursuing legal action as the song wasn???t actually being sold. Syl could have filed a more complex suit involving the use of his voice to promote the #1 album, but decided against it. Eventually Kanye was going to want to clear some other part of our catalog, and we???d get Syl his money with leverage. With only a non-binding email to solidify the terms, we began the arduous process of having the song removed from money making channels like You Tube, for which Syl was seeing nothing. We thought the song was dead and moved on. It happens all the time.
Late last night, we received a phone call from Syl???who was nearly in tears???asking if we knew why The Numero Group appeared in the credits to a new Kanye West/Jay Z album called Watch The Throne. We had no idea. The credits mis-identify Numero as the publisher of the sampled song (???Different Strokes???), which of course we are not, and any routine search of the BMI database would show otherwise. Wondering why we weren???t consulted on this new use, and baffled why we appear in the credits, for which we never asked, we contacted the sample clearance house. Even they cannot get a response from their own clients. Island Def Jam seems to think that Syl doesn???t have any fight left in him. We???re betting otherwise.
watch-the-throne-as-it-re-defines-black-power - continued
Jesus. They're ENTERTAINERS. Ridiculously wealthy ones at that. Anyone dumb enough to look at these dudes and expect/hope for them to lead a revolution or even (re)define any cultural movement needs to stop complaining and start making sure their kids know the difference between a movement and a "movement." Yes I've heard these dudes rap about Black Power over their years, but their overall theme of "hustling" and "every man for himself" has been much louder and much more clearer than any pseudo-activist stances they've made. That should be obvious to anybody save maybe some younger listeners.
All Black Everything?
Everyone has different expectations from their artists.
I would suggest owning the fact that you like what you do. This type of reaction is so unecessary.
Muhammad. If you hate talking about music, why are you on this Board? People have been DISCUSSING, analysing and theorizing about pop culture, entertainment, music, musicians, content and quality from time. You want to take it at face value, that's up to you. Others want to look at it a little deeper and from a different angle, there's nothing wrong with that.
I wasn't talking to YOU. (Unless you wrote that article.) I was referring to the article at hand and the people - mostly non-Strutters - who are always complaining about these two dudes and their high dollar raps.
And you're right, there's nothing wrong with in-depth discussions on here. After all, that's what the core of the board is. I just get bugged when folks are so damn negative with it. Lighten up a little, folks!
In tears?!!?
His grunts??!?
This is fucking hilarious.
The soft batch.
He can have my grunts. I very rarely use them.
Whats the big deal? This aint no Milli Vanilli shit.
I hope Syl gets paid
There's really no two ways about this shit... it's 2011. Clear the sample or don't use it. Or youtube/whitelabel it. Don't put it on your gaudy ass, goldleaf covered blockbuster summer album where you rap about your gazillions of dollars.
Sheesh.
Except that nobody wants them.
And if millions were being made off of them I have little doubt that you would be grunting a different tune.