Again, there is already too much blood in the streets, both here and by our hands abroad. Shit, if the collapse merely causes the US military to stop its overseas activities...that would constitute a larger deflation in violence than any unorganized bread riot could ever cover.
Which takes me back to Americans being pussies. We're fine and dandy when we are tearing up neighborhoods in Libya, but if we don't get to have our Starbucks tomorrow, that's what's going to make all hell break lose???
Not that I believe the gold is fake. But we are all headed towards a major downturn with this path the world seems to be on. There are many people who believe that collecting wealth will somehow cushion their blow.
Laughing out loud can be an emotion when dealing with major disappointment or pain.
Most of the greek debt which is on the verge of undoing the EU is insured by the big American banks.
Financial institutions have been selling financial instruments that pay if Greece defaults.
So you can buy insurance that pays you money if Greece defaults.
You can also buy securities backed by Greek debt.
This is exactly what they were doing with mortgages before the current collapse.
The US govt made private ownership of gold illegal and confiscated all supplies back in 1933 at the bottom of the great depression. It's not impossible that that could happen again.
They confiscated all gold?
It was illegal to own gold?
I actually don't know what gives gold its intrinsic value
Fiat.
Some reasons why people desire gold is its beauty (gold has been used as jewelry, decorations and art by many different cultures and civilizations); its uniformity (pure gold is the same in quality, weight, color, no matter where or when it was mined); its durability (gold does not rust, tarnish or age); its fluidity (gold can be combined, divided and easily shape); its quantity (gold is not too rare that it takes too much desired work to obtain but not too common that it takes too little desired work to obtain); its portability (gold is a practical way to carry a large amount of desired work i.e. wealth in a small package); its reputation (gold has a dependable track record of storing and holding desired work i.e. wealth over time). Any of these reasons can be why an individual may desire gold. Also the properties that gold have makes it an ideal medium of exchange. So the answer to the question what gives gold its value is individuals desire for it and the work it takes to obtain it.
The US govt made private ownership of gold illegal and confiscated all supplies back in 1933 at the bottom of the great depression. It's not impossible that that could happen again.
They confiscated all gold?
It was illegal to own gold?
off the top off my head i actually am not sure, world war 2 was what finally broke the great depression, i think the bretton-woods currency system they brought in after WW2 was a new gold standard or semi gold standard. as to when private ownership was allowed again i actually can't say, good question though. When they confiscated, the govt "bought" it back off you, you were required by law to take it in and sell it at the current market rate.
fiat is 100% dependant on the people's faith in that currency as a store of value. Look at what happened in Zimbabwe, people lost faith and it became worthless. The USD is heading that way as Ben Bernanke keeps cranking out more money from thin air (quantitative easing). China and Japan are the two biggest creditor nations to the US, Japan are now totally broke from the earthquakes and China have officially massively reduced their holdings in the USD. it's all over recent financial news.
What I have seen in financial news is that US Bonds are in high demand.
US Bonds are the instrument that is used (not printing money) for quantitative easing.
US Bonds pay a very low interest rates, yet Bernanke is able to sell as many as he wants.
Why can he sell them? Investors think they are safer than gold.
If investors ever believe, as you do, that the US will default on those bonds they will quit buying them.
Now is the best time for the US rack up debt. There is a high demand for US debt. The interest rate we will have to pay on the debt is historically low. And the economy needs money for projects and investments to get people working again.
Our problem is too little, not too much debt.
BTW: Our national debt can be easily lowered by returning to Clinton era tax rates.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Sorry, Dan, but HELL NO! We don't need money for money's sake to stimulate the economy. We need new industry, if anything. You know, going back to actually producing something. A service economy is only spinning its own wheels to nowhere.
Sorry, Dan, but HELL NO! We don't need money for money's sake to stimulate the economy. We need new industry, if anything. You know, going back to actually producing something. A service economy is only spinning its own wheels to nowhere.
how does one kickstart or re-start industry w/o money? The gov't is the only one to get this started because all the corporate money is lining the pockets of CEOs and being used to sustain the operations they moved overseas. Corporate America wont do it, they have had a decade of tax breaks and welfare to do this and they haven't and they won't. Money to fix bridges that are about to collapse, get industry going again, green energy are some of the ways to get things going again, but the gov't has to do it and $ is needed to do so.
Recent renewed interest in T-bonds is a side effect of an onslaught of dire economic news and the Eurozone falling apart. The US dollar is still the global reserve currency and therefore considered a 'safe haven' when things turn grim. Especially with Europe stealing the limelight. QE2 ends next week and the markets are already tanking hard in preparation for it as the 90 billion a week the fed have pumped into the credit markets have propped up the share markets for the last 9 months or so. None of this is going to solve any long term problems for the US economy though. The US national debt exceeds the GDP of the entire country. This is without factoring in unfunded liabilties such as social security and medicare. There is no serious manufacturing base anymore except for military. There is no way this debt will ever be repaid. Ever.
I'm just sayin', shit is a foul foul mess. No tax increases or cuts to government budgets is gonna sort this shit out. I don't think there is any solution, just a matter of how long it can all be stretched out. But i'm not trying to start any arguments, just calling it how i see it. A serious default and massive shake up is the only thing that will bring in lasting change. America is a proud capable creative nation. People will pull through, just this current ponzi scheme will fall apart at some point and a lot of people will go through hard ship in the process.
Sorry, Dan, but HELL NO! We don't need money for money's sake to stimulate the economy. We need new industry, if anything. You know, going back to actually producing something. A service economy is only spinning its own wheels to nowhere.
Agreed.
New industry requires capitol (money not gold) to get going. That is what I am talking about.
BTW, a lot of people think, that because the largest us industries, like steel, have all but disappeared that we don't make stuff any more. But we do. There are lots of small companies making products. It is a huge part of our economy.
that flat line of stable national debt from 1940 to 1973 was when the USD was backed by gold. The unbacked fiat system kicked in after that and look at the line go vertical in 40 short years.
US Bonds pay a very low interest rates, yet Bernanke is able to sell as many as he wants.
Why can he sell them? Investors think they are safer than gold. the stock market
Dude. Come on. There is not enough gold to invest in. There are not enough stocks to speculate on. That's why we created "financial instruments." These same instruments that you think will save our economy but really just wrecked it. This shit did not start on inauguration day 2001.
Concepts of "growth" will need some attention in the next few years.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
The_Hook_Up said:
HarveyCanal said:
Sorry, Dan, but HELL NO! We don't need money for money's sake to stimulate the economy. We need new industry, if anything. You know, going back to actually producing something. A service economy is only spinning its own wheels to nowhere.
how does one kickstart or re-start industry w/o money? The gov't is the only one to get this started because all the corporate money is lining the pockets of CEOs and being used to sustain the operations they moved overseas. Corporate America wont do it, they have had a decade of tax breaks and welfare to do this and they haven't and they won't. Money to fix bridges that are about to collapse, get industry going again, green energy are some of the ways to get things going again, but the gov't has to do it and $ is needed to do so.
Well then fuck it. If the sheisty ass government has to be involved, then it's not even worth trying. I will begin eating my lawn now.
US Bonds pay a very low interest rates, yet Bernanke is able to sell as many as he wants.
Why can he sell them? Investors think they are safer than gold. the stock market
Dude. Come on. There is not enough gold to invest in. There are not enough stocks to speculate on. That's why we created "financial instruments." These same instruments that you think will save our economy but really just wrecked it. This shit did not start on inauguration day 2001.
Concepts of "growth" will need some attention in the next few years.
If you want to invest in gold, the gold is there, go ahead. Do you need links?
There is no shortage of stocks.
Bonds are simply safer. Because the debt is not as big a problem as you have been lead to think.
I agree though that investors are looking for quick cute ways to make lots of money. And it is all about growth growth growth. And I agree that is a problem.
I agree that investors would rather gamble on stocks, credit default swaps and other risky high yield schemes than invest in business, communities and people.
That is why I think the US Government should needs to make those investments.
If you want to invest in gold, the gold is there, go ahead. Do you need links?
There is no shortage of stocks.
What the hell is your definition of the word "investment"?!!!
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
LaserWolf said:
HarveyCanal said:
Sorry, Dan, but HELL NO! We don't need money for money's sake to stimulate the economy. We need new industry, if anything. You know, going back to actually producing something. A service economy is only spinning its own wheels to nowhere.
Agreed.
New industry requires capitol (money not gold) to get going. That is what I am talking about.
BTW, a lot of people think, that because the largest us industries, like steel, have all but disappeared that we don't make stuff any more. But we do. There are lots of small companies making products. It is a huge part of our economy.
Yes, and that's what I suggest, the grassroots building of new industries, with as little government or established corporate involvement as possible. But that means it will be a longer process, where you don't get to go from one shop to 1,000 in a month's time because Big Daddy took out a ridiculously large loan on your behalf. Instead, BABY STEPS.
i find it intersting that libya didn't become a big enough problem for military action until they decided to nationalize their oil. very interesting cause if you think about it, there are plenty of other countries with humanitarian crises on their hands(syria, yemen, the congo, somalia, etc.). i think the lesson is: if you have a humanitarian crisis that needs our help, please have your oil ready.
on the currency issue: physical currency is dwarfed by digital currency.
you guys(and the 4 ladies who post here) really should check out this episode "this american life" that covers currency. check out act ii "weekend at bernanke's". it's utterly mindblowing.
do it:
remember when clinton left office and we were left with somewhere close to a 40 billion dollar surplus?
when bush got "elected" they were geeking out about "how are we going to spend this surplus?". and somehow the "conservatives" get the reputation for being great with money. they made their case that the huge issue holding us back was regulation. if we could just get rid of the regulation, we could realize our full potential or whatever. look where we are now after wall st. robbed the country. we're in so deep that republican linguistic strategist frank luntz pejoratively renamed programs like social security, medicare, (and many other social programs) entitlements. have you guys noticed that? think about the ramifications of this. basically everything that's not going to corporate welfare is now an "entitlement" and that is slowly working it's way into the mindset of the country. seems like the only thing regulations were in the way of were corporate dudes hijacking our country.
corporate dudes are all about socialism.... when it comes to their losses.
in response to the the specific question i was referring to..
December 31, 1974 ended the era of private U.S. gold ownership restrictions which had begun in 1933. As of January 1, 1975, U.S. citizens were again free to own gold in any form, including bullion, and in any amount that they can afford, without restrictions or any federal ???reporting??? of those holdings.
Gold is just a commodity dudes. Might as well back our currency in rap 12"s
gold is real money, shit like pork bellies and oil are commodities. gold may be traded as an etf, treated as a finanacial instrument like a commodity, but it's been an effective store of value for most of human history and always been the thing that societies have reverted to when fiat currencies have collapsed numerous times throughout history.
Ron Paul's brand of wingnuttery is every bit as inane and insane as Lyndon LaRouche's brand. Returning to the gold standard at this point would be like basing the world economy on tulip bulbs.
Comments
Google "Double Latte Grande Vente Riots"
That's funny to you?
Not that I believe the gold is fake. But we are all headed towards a major downturn with this path the world seems to be on. There are many people who believe that collecting wealth will somehow cushion their blow.
Laughing out loud can be an emotion when dealing with major disappointment or pain.
I wish Bill Clinton has a way to fix this...
Fiat.
Wow.
Financial institutions have been selling financial instruments that pay if Greece defaults.
So you can buy insurance that pays you money if Greece defaults.
You can also buy securities backed by Greek debt.
This is exactly what they were doing with mortgages before the current collapse.
Idiots. And but we will bail them out.
They confiscated all gold?
It was illegal to own gold?
When did it become legal again to own gold?
That's what gives dead presidents value too.
Also known as fiat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
off the top off my head i actually am not sure, world war 2 was what finally broke the great depression, i think the bretton-woods currency system they brought in after WW2 was a new gold standard or semi gold standard. as to when private ownership was allowed again i actually can't say, good question though. When they confiscated, the govt "bought" it back off you, you were required by law to take it in and sell it at the current market rate.
US Bonds are the instrument that is used (not printing money) for quantitative easing.
US Bonds pay a very low interest rates, yet Bernanke is able to sell as many as he wants.
Why can he sell them? Investors think they are safer than gold.
If investors ever believe, as you do, that the US will default on those bonds they will quit buying them.
Now is the best time for the US rack up debt. There is a high demand for US debt. The interest rate we will have to pay on the debt is historically low. And the economy needs money for projects and investments to get people working again.
Our problem is too little, not too much debt.
BTW: Our national debt can be easily lowered by returning to Clinton era tax rates.
how does one kickstart or re-start industry w/o money? The gov't is the only one to get this started because all the corporate money is lining the pockets of CEOs and being used to sustain the operations they moved overseas. Corporate America wont do it, they have had a decade of tax breaks and welfare to do this and they haven't and they won't. Money to fix bridges that are about to collapse, get industry going again, green energy are some of the ways to get things going again, but the gov't has to do it and $ is needed to do so.
I'm just sayin', shit is a foul foul mess. No tax increases or cuts to government budgets is gonna sort this shit out. I don't think there is any solution, just a matter of how long it can all be stretched out. But i'm not trying to start any arguments, just calling it how i see it. A serious default and massive shake up is the only thing that will bring in lasting change. America is a proud capable creative nation. People will pull through, just this current ponzi scheme will fall apart at some point and a lot of people will go through hard ship in the process.
Agreed.
New industry requires capitol (money not gold) to get going. That is what I am talking about.
BTW, a lot of people think, that because the largest us industries, like steel, have all but disappeared that we don't make stuff any more. But we do. There are lots of small companies making products. It is a huge part of our economy.
Dude. Come on. There is not enough gold to invest in. There are not enough stocks to speculate on. That's why we created "financial instruments." These same instruments that you think will save our economy but really just wrecked it. This shit did not start on inauguration day 2001.
Concepts of "growth" will need some attention in the next few years.
Well then fuck it. If the sheisty ass government has to be involved, then it's not even worth trying. I will begin eating my lawn now.
If you want to invest in gold, the gold is there, go ahead. Do you need links?
There is no shortage of stocks.
Bonds are simply safer. Because the debt is not as big a problem as you have been lead to think.
I agree though that investors are looking for quick cute ways to make lots of money. And it is all about growth growth growth. And I agree that is a problem.
I agree that investors would rather gamble on stocks, credit default swaps and other risky high yield schemes than invest in business, communities and people.
That is why I think the US Government should needs to make those investments.
What the hell is your definition of the word "investment"?!!!
Yes, and that's what I suggest, the grassroots building of new industries, with as little government or established corporate involvement as possible. But that means it will be a longer process, where you don't get to go from one shop to 1,000 in a month's time because Big Daddy took out a ridiculously large loan on your behalf. Instead, BABY STEPS.
on the currency issue: physical currency is dwarfed by digital currency.
you guys(and the 4 ladies who post here) really should check out this episode "this american life" that covers currency. check out act ii "weekend at bernanke's". it's utterly mindblowing.
do it:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money
remember when clinton left office and we were left with somewhere close to a 40 billion dollar surplus?
when bush got "elected" they were geeking out about "how are we going to spend this surplus?". and somehow the "conservatives" get the reputation for being great with money. they made their case that the huge issue holding us back was regulation. if we could just get rid of the regulation, we could realize our full potential or whatever. look where we are now after wall st. robbed the country. we're in so deep that republican linguistic strategist frank luntz pejoratively renamed programs like social security, medicare, (and many other social programs) entitlements. have you guys noticed that? think about the ramifications of this. basically everything that's not going to corporate welfare is now an "entitlement" and that is slowly working it's way into the mindset of the country. seems like the only thing regulations were in the way of were corporate dudes hijacking our country.
corporate dudes are all about socialism.... when it comes to their losses.
Ron Paul's brand of wingnuttery is every bit as inane and insane as Lyndon LaRouche's brand. Returning to the gold standard at this point would be like basing the world economy on tulip bulbs.
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_17/b3678084.htm