Knives (NRR)
barjesus
872 Posts
I need to buy everything necessary to stock a kitchen in a new apartment, and I???m at the point where I buy knives. Does the Strut have an opinion on high quality non-baller cutlery? Let???s say my budget for knives is $100.
Worth buying a set? Get a few better quality things and gradually add to that (which ones)?
Brands you trust?
High-Carbon steel/Carbon Steel/Ceramic?
Thanks, in advance.
Worth buying a set? Get a few better quality things and gradually add to that (which ones)?
Brands you trust?
High-Carbon steel/Carbon Steel/Ceramic?
Thanks, in advance.
Comments
I would buy minimal and add, rather than getting a set.....
same rules as you would apply to a record collection!! buy what you really like, and add however the budget/necessity permits!
$100 wont get you too many good knives, but you should be able to get a chefs knife and a paring knife no problem. That is where I would start.
It's funny because I just bought a cutco knife. They are decent knives. Only sold by high school and college kids. The scam is the kids have to buy knives to use for demonstrations. The good news is those knives then get sold on ebay for less than retail. Also friends and family buy them then put them on ebay because they don't need or want them.
My knife priority:
Paring
Chefs knife (or santoku)
boning
carving
scissors
bread
fillet
its like anything you buy now, you get what you pay for in quality (in most cases), there are a lot of other nice knives out there if you are going to buy something of quality, make sure you get a whetstone for reapplying an edge to your knives and a steal to keep them sharpened.
I agree! It is the only knife I use right now in my kitchen. I own a Global that I used in class last semester. I love it, but am not wanting to wear it out--yet.
I think Gilt has some deals on knives from time to time. That is where I got my Kyocera ceramic knife.
I got this for 100$ and its great, versatile and reduced my prep time considerably
(mine is actually the one elise posted)
I have both of these and they have held up very well, still keeping a nice edge in spite of my amateur sharpening abilities. These two and a serrated knife would be sufficient for the majority of kitchen tasks. Although we have other knives they hardly get any use. Just my opinion, I am not a professional chef but I have worked in kitchens a s a prep cook and I do cook at home quite a bit.
Wustoff Santuko is my shit.
I own a regular Chef's joint and a gang of others (carving/pairing).
DO NOT COP A SET. Cop your blades individiually.
And i recommend a Magnetic Stripe. It takes up less space that those goofy looking blocks.
I also highly recommend a Cleaver. It might seem heavy but once u get your skills up u can do most everything w/ that that u can do w/ any other blade besides carving and super precise paring work/decorative shit.
A serrated is also necessary. One for bread and one for tomatoes.
Ive been hesitant to cop the ultra expensive blade. There's a Japanese Blade spot in the financial district that has all those ultra samurai type shits. Shit is like getting fit for a shoe. Finding the right handle that wont tire your ass out when ur using the knife alot.
Now.....where do I begin? I rarely post here anymore because well, my life has shifted drastically in the past 5 yrs. I love records but have neither the time, space, nor the money for it anymore. The focus has shifted to cooking, and I guess you can say I've become an otaku with knives. Empanadamn told me to post so I did, well plus I couldn't keep quiet on a subject so dear to my heart.
I'm not trying to shit on anyone's answers here, but there is a lot to be said about industry clout, marketing budgets and such. Why do you always hear the same names mentioned in the knife game (Henckels, Wusthof, Shun, Global)? These are not bad knives, the problem lies in their bang for buck value. You can get far better knives for the same or less from smaller makers because the cost of advertising isn't factored into the price. Let me break down each brand......
Henckels - The double dude ones are in the high end line, these include lines such as 4 star, 5 star, twin cuisine, professional s. The blades are all identical, only difference lies in the handles. Single dude ones are not worth the $, avoid at all cost. Granted Henckels have stepped up their game and introduced lines such as the Miyabi, Morimoto (yes iron chef dude) and such taking design/styling cues from Japanese makers. Their J-lines are probably the best knives around with a wide distribution network.
Wusthof - Pretty much in the same boat as Henckels except they lack a Japanese line, thus worst than Henckels imo. Softer steel (hrc 54-56) with bolster, thicker blade, pronounced belly, 22 degree 50/50 bevel, same attributes as Henckels. They do have one knife that lacks a bolster and has a thinner blade called the Le Cordon Bleu version.
Shun - Fancy pants damascas pattern that is all visual, it does not improve performance. They use vg-10 steel (hrc 60), with a 15 degree 50/50 bevel, with a pronounced belly much like German knives. Shun is a brand name created purely for the overseas market, you cannot buy Shun knives in Japan. The parent company Kai does sell knives in Japan but they're not exactly high end, department store stock stuff. Benefit of Shun for home cooks is free sharpening for life if you send the knife back to Kai, you pay postage. Alternatively, buy from William & Sonoma and return when you feel it's dull or damaged, as they have a return policy as liberal as Costco's.
Global - You either love or hate the handles, which are more suited to small hands. Made of cromova 18 steel (hrc 56-58), the geometry is more in line with J knives, less of a belly. One maddening thing about them is sharpening Globals for the first time. They come from the factory with a convex edge, which is impossible to replicate w/o machinery. Therefore sharpening for the first time requires you to rework the knife to a standard V edge. A lot of time grinding to establish that V bevel.
If given the choice of the 4? I would pass on all and pick Mac, another line with wide distribution in North America. Yes, it's harder to find than those 4 but I feel they provide much more bang for buck.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/macsukn.html
I will never recommend a set, only purchase what is needed. A general home setup should consist of a chef's knife, a petty/paring knife and if you're wonderbread, a bread knife. If I had $100 and less to spend here are the gyuto/chef's knives I would consider purchasing.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojiro-dp-f-8081.html
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/fufkmgy21.html
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/misono3.html (this one's carbon)
Other e-retailers I recommend
http://japanesechefsknife.com/products.html
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/
http://www.toshoknifearts.com/
If cost is a pivotal factor and you're too lazy to search for a specialist brand. Then the Fibrox knives mentioned by several posters are a great option. These are beaters that can take abuse, and if damaged, can be replaced quite cheaply.
Ceramic I suggest you avoid as it's a passing fad. Yes these knives will hold an edge much longer than steel knives. Once dull, they "CANNOT" be sharpened by you. They need to be sent back to the factory to be reground. You will be w/o a knife for weeks, not exactly practical. Also, they're much more fragile than regular knives and will break if dropped. Finally, due to their fragility, they're made in lengths much shorter than conventional knives.
Which leads us to some knife basics........
Hardness - The harder the steel, the more resistant to wear, the sharper an edge it can hold. The drawback is a knife can become too hard which makes the edge extremely chippy/fragile. Your cutting style will affect a knife's kirenaga (edge retention). Most western cooks use a rocking motion, and that is what's taught in school and most general kitchens. It works fine but the constant contact w/ the board will dull your knife much quicker compared to the Asian style of cutting, the push cut. This requires a different technique but will put less wear on your knife, thus prolonging its sharpness. The actual dulling of the edge is rarely due to the product being cut, rather it's the repeated contact with the cutting board. Stay away from marble, glass, ceramic boards, they're the devil. Plastic is so so, but has its place for cutting raw protein. For veg and cooked meats, I recommend getting an end grain cutting board with wood such as maple/cherry/walnut. It should be several inches longer/wider than the entire length of your knife.
Geometry - Thicker softer knives like ze Germans will withstand hacking on bones and such. Japanese knives cannot withstand such abuse, as they're meant to be used to cut through joints. Also they're designed to be thinner with a flatter profile. Thinner blades means less drag resistance when cutting through foods famous for wedging (potatoes, carrots). Flatter profile means more board contact surface, which suits push cutting. Belly profile or German knives suits rocking.
Weight - Do not believe the bs from shopkeeps, a heavy knife is not a better knife. Weighted bolsters don't mean shit, it's a pain in the ass imo. A bolster makes the heel of your knife impossible to sharpen w/o the assistance of a sanding belt/grinding wheel. Might matter less to a home cook, but cutting 50lbs or onions w/ a heavy knife will tire your arm much more than w/ a nimble Japanese number.
Length - People are afraid of long knives. Why? Yes it might be intimidating at first, but once armed with the knowledge, you'll find a longer knife much more useful than a shorter one. First, when slicing something, using one smooth motion will ensure an even flat cut. A long knife allows you to maximize this one smooth motion, rather than sawing back and forth on an item, thus destroying cell structure and altering taste, appearance, etc. For a chef's knife, I suggest a minimum of 210mm (8"). I personally use a 240mm and a 270mm.
Grip - Holding a knife properly ensures maximum control. Most home cooks hold their knives strictly by the handle, lacking stability/control. The most efficient method is with a pinch grip, you basically choke up on the knife. Try it, it really does help w/ controlling the knife. It also makes a long knife seem shorter, hence more reason to buy a longer knife.
Maintenance/care - Do not do not be a lazy fuck, never put your knives in the dishwasher. Never leave the knife sitting in the sink along with dishes soaking in water. The extreme heat + detergent will erode the edge of a knife, dulling it in no time. It doesn't help when the knife is clanging around inside the dishwasher, which can lead to chips or broken tips. Leaving it in a sink w/ dishes, same principle, it'll end up bashing against plates. Plus, try washing a sink full of dirty dishes, reaching in only to feel the sharp edge jabbing into your finger. Don't be stupid! Wash your knife after each use and dry with a towel. Finally place the knife in a knife block or magnetic rack. If you only have drawer space, buy a plastic knife guard. Do not place an unguarded knife inside your drawer, another surefire way of dulling your knife in no time. Finally, always wipe your knife right away if you cut anything acidic, the acid dulls an edge quickly if left unwashed.
Sharpening - Another stupid myth, the steel you have doesn't sharpen your knife, it merely hones/re-aligns your blade. Over time, a softer steel knife (such as Germans) will have their edge roll over after repeated use. The hone helps to roll the edge back into a V formation. Honing does work but eventually a knife will dull to the point where it requires actual sharpening. Meaning abrading metal off the steel to create a new edge. This can only be done by one way, using sharpening stones, I prefer Japanese water stones personally. As an aside, you'll see diamond or ceramic steels/hones that can sharpen your knives. These work differently than regular steels as they're made of material harder than you knives. On softer steel knives, it'll create microscopic abrasions, giving your blade a toothy edge. You can't see it, but the abrasions resemble what a bread knife looks like. Yes your blade will feel sharp, but these little abrasions chip off quickly, thus leaving a dull edge again. It's a short term fix for sharpening for lazy cooks imo. Do not use these on Japanese knives with harder steel, it'll cause your Japanese blades to chip, not a pretty sight. I rather stop myself before I nerd out anymore on waterstone sharpening, as i'm even more fanatical that than buying knives. Unless somebody asks.........
Carbon - There are advantages to both sides, carbon being easier to sharpen, and will get sharper. Drawback is they'll rust if left wet, and will leave odour/colour on food at first (onions/fruit) until you develop a patina. A patina meaning a layer that forms naturally on carbon knives that helps protect the knife from reacting with the food. Depending on what you cut the patina can be blueish purple (meat) or brown.
Stainless - For most intensive purposes, home cooks will prefer stainless. Yes they don't get as sharp as carbon and are generally harder to sharpen, but these differences are trivial if you're just cooking for fam. Keep in mind stainless literally means stains less, it will still stain if you leave shit on it overnight. Don't be lazy, clean your knife and dry it. It'll last you your entire lifetime w/ proper care.
I will not get into the nerdery that is traditional Japanese single bevel knives with wa handles. They're beyond the scope of home users.
The Strut never disappoints! Thanks for the suggestions everybody.
Love my wife, love my Henckel knives.
I agree with the Global point you made. I do have small hands and I like the way the feel is with the handle. Also, sharpening it is a real b*tch.
Ceramic knife is only for home use.
I wish everybody can experience the joy of cutting with a sharp knife once, at least know the concept of "sharp". Factory out of the box edge can be much improved upon.
No matter how great a knife is, it'll get dull. I sharpen my work knives once a week, so for a home cook, they'll get dull after several months.
I use a regular Coarse/Fine Rectangular wetstone w/ Mineral oil.
Do u use oil or water?
So yes, I use a progression of Japanese synthetic waterstones. More important is that I flatten the stones after each usage with a diamond flattening plate. I debur with a wine cork, good cheap remedy.
Similar to this.....
I'll probably grab both when some crazy bandidos mistake my house for a stash spot and kick in the door waving a .44.
we get lots of stuff from companies to test
last year i got my hands on my first ceramic. the fun only last a couple of weeks
they get blunt rapidly and chip fast. dont even think of dropping them.
i stick to my classic sabatier chef's knive and office knive
funny enough this is the knive i use most of the time
Have you ever went over a friends house to eat and the food just ain't no good?
The macaroni's soggy, the peas are mushed, and the chicken tastes like wood
So you try to play it off like you think you can by saying that you're full
And then your friend says, "Mama, he's just being polite, he ain't finished, uh-uh, that's bull!"
So your heart starts pumpin' and you think of a lie and you say that you already ate
And your friend says "Man, there's plenty of food", so he piles some more on your plate
While the stinky foods steamin', your mind starts to dreamin' of the moment that it's time to leave
And then you look at your plate and your chicken's slowly rottin' into something that looks like cheese
Oh so you say "That's it, I gotta leave this place, I don't care what these people think
I'm just sittin' here makin' myself nauseous with this ugly food that stinks"
So you bust out the door while it's still closed, still sick from the food you ate
And then you run to the store for quick relief from a bottle of Kaopectate
And then you call your HERM two weeks later to see how he has been
And he says, "I understand about the food, Baby Bubba, but we're still friends"
How easy is the whetstone method? Or, more accurately, how easy is it to fuck up your blades if you don't really know what you're doing? I'd love to be able to sharpen my knives myself, but I'm wary of ruining them due to total lack of whetstone experience.
Also, thanks for the big-time
and always the same curve
there must be a youtube vid
I'm not going to lie, there is a learning curve. Obviously better if there is someone there guiding you through the process. Also there are a million ways to sharpen, there is no correct way. There are lots of minor variations but for general purposes, it involves grinding the blade on a surface that helps to break down the metal particles of the knife to form a new edge.
Lots of good videos online with proper technique, perhaps even more videos with improper technique. That is the pitfall of relying on videos, you have to know who is doing it right vs wrong.
This image illustrates a knife pre-honing and post honing.
This shows what happens when you're sharpening. A tiny little lip forms with the metal particles pushed off by grinding the stone. Once you feel this lip on the opposing side, is when you realize the knife has been sharpened. This lip, called the burr, needs to be removed to complete the sharpening. I draw my knife through a wine cork to accomplish that.
Basic equipment needed would be a rough and fine stone, and a flattening stone. Flattening your stones ensure even contact surface w/ the knife when sharpening. I often see stones that resemble a skateboard ramp, they're useless for sharpening by that point.
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?pf_id=01.096
Resources you can investigate to learn about sharpening....
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showforum.php?fid/26/
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forumdisplay.php?4-The-Kitchen
Videos that illustrate proper technique....
Jon's store offers some great knives too.