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NORTH AFRICA (Revolution-related)

discos_almadiscos_alma discos_alma 2,164 Posts
edited January 2011 in Strut Central
Shit is whylin right now! This is such a watershed moment in this geo-political region, and will no-doubt have reverberations through the rest of the Arab world.

My good friend Selim is from Tunisia and is studying in Berkeley right now. Just partied with him on Friday night and he was beyond stoked! He was definitely apprehensive about this politically fragile time in his country, but excited about the new future it will bring. Dude is all about moving back after school and opening up a business, where previously that was never an avenue worth pursuing for a variety of economic and social reasons.

Here's to hoping for a solid new democratic government that works for the people!

Looking like Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, etc are all getting inspired (and rightly so) by the brave folks in Tunisia.
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  Comments

  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    The whole of Africa is on fire right now.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    I would like to hear Motown and Vitamin's takes on recent happenings in Tunisa and Egypt.

    This could mean big changes in N Africa.
    Not necessarily in the US interests.

    We could potentially see governments in Jordan and Saudi Arabia fall to massive street protests.
    I doubt that is going to happen.
    Haven't heard any news since this morning, but my guess is, Egypt is going to put the breaks on anti-government protests with the kind of force and brutality we have not seen before in Egypt.

    Since I don't really know who the opposition (street protesters) are, there is no way for me to judge if this is a good thing or bad thing.

    One thing is for sure, the imposition of arbitrary boarders in Africa has caused massive suffering.
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    Arbitrary borders around the world have caused massive suffering, not just Africa. More very important things are happening in Africa besides this push for democracy in North Africa.
  • HollafameHollafame 844 Posts
    Not to mention the Sudan north/south split...which is huge.
  • discos_almadiscos_alma discos_alma 2,164 Posts
    The_Non said:
    More very important things are happening in Africa besides this push for democracy in North Africa.

    Oh for sure. What were you thinking of in particular?
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    Sudan partition, Nigeria's upcoming election and extreme tribal/religious based violence, and the rise of African narco-states.
  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,905 Posts
    Any comment from the strutters who said the wikileaks stuff in the end wouldn't amount to anything major???
  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,905 Posts
    Dbl post
  • SnagglepusSnagglepus 1,756 Posts
    Riot police being chased by Egyptian protestors:

  • StoneHandsStoneHands 341 Posts
    Unfortunately, I dont think this project will spill over to other Arab states. Tunisia is quite small, homogenized and relatively well off, compared to say, Egypt. Plus, as bad as Ben Ali's regime was, you did not have a military presence on every street corner and consistent torture and jailing of political opposition and civilian dissenters a la Syria or Egypt, for that matter. But again, stranger things have happened.
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    Hosni Mubarak is a dictator and he's trying to position his son to succeed him. To people in Egypt, besides living under a sometimes brutal dictatorial regime, this is one of the most objectionable parts of today's Egypt. The problems with his removal or "retiring" are many for the West:
    -Muslims have attacked Coptic Christians repeatedly, and the attacks have increased lately.
    -The US has given major military funding and weaponry to the Egyptian gov't. If the Egyptian gov't falls to Islamic fundamentalists, the copious amts of those advanced weapons will be accessible/on sale to terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb.
    -Egypt under "new" leadership might possibly feel it was worthwhile to threaten Israel militarily.
    -Jamaat al-Islamiyya and Egyptian Islamic Jihad are shrewd and militant, and are not above committing violent acts for political gain. They advocate a Sunni Islam theocratic state.
  • StoneHandsStoneHands 341 Posts
    The_Non said:
    Hosni Mubarak is a dictator and he's trying to position his son to succeed him. To people in Egypt, besides living under a sometimes brutal dictatorial regime, this is one of the most objectionable parts of today's Egypt. The problems with his removal or "retiring" are many for the West:
    -Muslims have attacked Coptic Christians repeatedly, and the attacks have increased lately.
    -The US has given major military funding and weaponry to the Egyptian gov't. If the Egyptian gov't falls to Islamic fundamentalists, the copious amts of those advanced weapons will be accessible/on sale to terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb.
    -Egypt under "new" leadership might possibly feel it was worthwhile to threaten Israel militarily.
    -Jamaat al-Islamiyya and Egyptian Islamic Jihad are shrewd and militant, and are not above committing violent acts for political gain. They advocate a Sunni Islam theocratic state.

    I dont think Egypt will ever become a theocratic state like the Islamic Jihad or the fringe elements in the Brotherhood would like it to. Ironically, I think that has to do with the religious revival, whereby Islam has come to the forefront of political discourse and has, thus been appropriated and "popularized" for the masses, if you will. The religiousity is so spread through all sectors of society, that the "us", believers vs. the infidel state mindstate does not seem to be accepted in the popular Egyptian psyche. The popular reaction to the latest church shooting is an indication of that...
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    The_Non said:
    Hosni Mubarak is a dictator and he's trying to position his son to succeed him. To people in Egypt, besides living under a sometimes brutal dictatorial regime, this is one of the most objectionable parts of today's Egypt. The problems with his removal or "retiring" are many for the West:
    -Muslims have attacked Coptic Christians repeatedly, and the attacks have increased lately.
    -The US has given major military funding and weaponry to the Egyptian gov't. If the Egyptian gov't falls to Islamic fundamentalists, the copious amts of those advanced weapons will be accessible/on sale to terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb.
    -Egypt under "new" leadership might possibly feel it was worthwhile to threaten Israel militarily.
    -Jamaat al-Islamiyya and Egyptian Islamic Jihad are shrewd and militant, and are not above committing violent acts for political gain. They advocate a Sunni Islam theocratic state.

    Good points.

    I was just thinking that we fear governments falling to Islamic fundamentalists (IF), but it has really only happened once.
    The Taliban were the kind of government I think of as IF.
    Their reign of terror has gratefully come to an end.
    We can call Saudi Arabia and Iran IF, but fundamentalism in those countries comes second to ruling with an iron fist.
    Those countries, also, are strongly opposed to (and opposed by) Al Qaeda.

    I'm not sure what my point is, just thinking on the keyboard.
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    StoneHands said:
    The_Non said:
    Hosni Mubarak is a dictator and he's trying to position his son to succeed him. To people in Egypt, besides living under a sometimes brutal dictatorial regime, this is one of the most objectionable parts of today's Egypt. The problems with his removal or "retiring" are many for the West:
    -Muslims have attacked Coptic Christians repeatedly, and the attacks have increased lately.
    -The US has given major military funding and weaponry to the Egyptian gov't. If the Egyptian gov't falls to Islamic fundamentalists, the copious amts of those advanced weapons will be accessible/on sale to terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb.
    -Egypt under "new" leadership might possibly feel it was worthwhile to threaten Israel militarily.
    -Jamaat al-Islamiyya and Egyptian Islamic Jihad are shrewd and militant, and are not above committing violent acts for political gain. They advocate a Sunni Islam theocratic state.

    I dont think Egypt will ever become a theocratic state like the Islamic Jihad or the fringe elements in the Brotherhood would like it to. Ironically, I think that has to do with the religious revival, whereby Islam has come to the forefront of political discourse and has, thus been appropriated and "popularized" for the masses, if you will. The religiousity is so spread through all sectors of society, that the "us", believers vs. the infidel state mindstate does not seem to be accepted in the popular Egyptian psyche. The popular reaction to the latest church shooting is an indication of that...

    I agree with you. I was positing "doomsday scenarios." I didn't hear the public reaction after the shootings, but I know enough about Egypt to expect "popular outrage" and secular disgust as responses. My pt being, if a dictator nobody likes can hold power, a group of zealots that some people like could too, and that would be bad, mmkay.
  • rootlesscosmorootlesscosmo 12,848 Posts
    There will be a President Mubarak in Egypt (the current one or his son) for many, many years yet.
  • pimlicosquirrelpimlicosquirrel 772 Posts
    rootlesscosmo said:
    There will be a President Mubarak in Egypt (the current one or his son) for many, many years yet.

    That's what they said about Anwar.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    .
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    The_Non said:
    Arbitrary borders around the world have caused massive suffering, not just Africa.

    Very true.
    European powers drew the boarders in Europe, with a good understanding of European people and history. European powers drew the boarders in Africa with no understanding of African people or history.
    Asian boarders have been drawn by both Western and Eastern powers.
    Native Americans were all but completely annihilated before boarders were drawn.
    Pacific Islands are pawns for Eastern and Western imperialistic interest.

    Boarders divide families and separate people from needed resources.
    They are all arbitrary.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    .
  • HollafameHollafame 844 Posts
    Since this topic strayed somewhat from Africa to Islam...its worth mentioning that Lebanon is about to light up soon too, with Hezbollah taking the reigns.
  • pcmrpcmr 5,591 Posts
    i like the flower revolution type wave that is happening (much like in east europe with ukraine as the lasest success)
    however much like there (central asia)
    it also causes gov to fear copycats protesting in there own country) and big crackdowns
    i really wish the people of algeria can accomplish the same stuff as tunisia
    the lebanon thing is so complex with the syria/iran situation you can't tell what's the best outcome
  • dwyhajlodwyhajlo 420 Posts
    LaserWolf said:
    European powers drew the boarders in Europe, with a good understanding of European people and history.

    Are you sure about that? Even if that is true, it's still lead to no end of grief.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    dwyhajlo said:
    LaserWolf said:
    European powers drew the boarders in Europe, with a good understanding of European people and history.

    Are you sure about that? Even if that is true, it's still lead to no end of grief.

    I recon it's true. Yes, it has lead to lots of grief.
  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    musica said:
    Here's to hoping for a solid new democratic government that works for the people!


    Let me guess, this would be democracy along US lines, right?

    You know, the one where you get to choose between Obama and someone like Palin?

    Yeah, that kind of democracy.

    Just stirring. :smirk:
  • discos_almadiscos_alma discos_alma 2,164 Posts
    skel said:
    musica said:
    Here's to hoping for a solid new democratic government that works for the people!


    Let me guess, this would be democracy along US lines, right?

    You know, the one where you get to choose between Obama and someone like Palin?

    Yeah, that kind of democracy.

    Just stirring. :smirk:

    Asshurt brit-related? (Joking!)

    As my comment suggested, I hope it suits the needs of the people. Tunisians have been waiting for the chance to actually ELECT politicians to positions that matter.

    By the way, it's common knowledge that America prefers dictatorships over working democracies! We have supported them on every continent except Antartica.
  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    I'm a lukewarm anarchist myself.

    At least until I realise that we still need someone to organise rubbish clearance and that.
  • dwyhajlodwyhajlo 420 Posts
    LaserWolf said:
    dwyhajlo said:
    LaserWolf said:
    European powers drew the boarders in Europe, with a good understanding of European people and history.

    Are you sure about that? Even if that is true, it's still lead to no end of grief.

    I recon it's true. Yes, it has lead to lots of grief.

    Well, I respectfully disagree. Exhibit A:
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    dwyhajlo said:
    LaserWolf said:
    dwyhajlo said:
    LaserWolf said:
    European powers drew the boarders in Europe, with a good understanding of European people and history.

    Are you sure about that? Even if that is true, it's still lead to no end of grief.

    I recon it's true. Yes, it has lead to lots of grief.

    Well, I respectfully disagree. Exhibit A:

    I'm not sure what your point is.
    Who do you think drew those boarders?
  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_World_War_I
  • dwyhajlodwyhajlo 420 Posts
    LaserWolf said:
    dwyhajlo said:
    LaserWolf said:
    dwyhajlo said:
    LaserWolf said:
    European powers drew the boarders in Europe, with a good understanding of European people and history.

    Are you sure about that? Even if that is true, it's still lead to no end of grief.

    I recon it's true. Yes, it has lead to lots of grief.

    Well, I respectfully disagree. Exhibit A:

    I'm not sure what your point is.
    Who do you think drew those boarders?

    My point is this: Europeans didn't even show deference to other Europeans when they were drawing borders.
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