I haven't had occasion in some time, but I hate it when I use "Not gonna be able to do it!" in conversation and people think I'm doing some bullshit Dana Carvey/George Bush impression. One time I was gonaa to say something, but I didn't want to herb myself like this hipster dude I saw on the platform a while back: He was whistling "First Cut Is The Deepest" kinda under his breath, and some well-meaning mom-type said "Oooh, Sheryl Crow! I love that sahhng!"; dude sniffed and said, "Actually, I was whistling the Cat Stevens version."
Yeah thats right it was wreckx-n-effect - so where did the double xx posse are hard as fuck thing come from? I remember some anecdote being attached to that.
Anyway, looking at rap year lists, personally i'd have to say 96/97 is when I really started getting a sinking feeling about the music - a lot of acts were rehashing formulas, suddenly r&b was all up in rap, puff daddy and the lox, master p and them were stinking up the atmosphere, the source started reading like a catalogue of what sucked about rap. And that was just before shit really started going south of the border, it was like going from - 'i cant really cosign this' to - 'man, what the hell is this?'.
Yeah thats right it was wreckx-n-effect - so where did the double xx posse are hard as fuck thing come from? I remember some anecdote being attached to that.
Anyway, looking at rap year lists, personally i'd have to say 96/97 is when I really started getting a sinking feeling about the music - a lot of acts were rehashing formulas, suddenly r&b was all up in rap, puff daddy and the lox, master p and them were stinking up the atmosphere, the source started reading like a catalogue of what sucked about rap. And that was just before shit really started going south of the border, it was like going from - 'i cant really cosign this' to - 'man, what the hell is this?'.
I totally agree with you. IMO, Kieth Murray's second album was the last good LP of the 96/97 era. It was all down hill from there. Thank you Puff, P and even Wu start dropping turds.
Yeah thats right it was wreckx-n-effect - so where did the double xx posse are hard as fuck thing come from? I remember some anecdote being attached to that.
Anyway, looking at rap year lists, personally i'd have to say 96/97 is when I really started getting a sinking feeling about the music - a lot of acts were rehashing formulas, suddenly r&b was all up in rap, puff daddy and the lox, master p and them were stinking up the atmosphere, the source started reading like a catalogue of what sucked about rap. And that was just before shit really started going south of the border, it was like going from - 'i cant really cosign this' to - 'man, what the hell is this?'.
I totally agree with you. IMO, Kieth Murray's second album was the last good LP of the 96/97 era. It was all down hill from there. Thank you Puff, P and even Wu start dropping turds.
I agree with the 95/96 thing...
I think a big problem was a lot of dope groups dropped lackluster follow-up albums en masse.
And that just failed to keep the innovation and creativity going and allowed stuff like Master P and Puff to take over
For me these were disappointing -
Tribe's Beats, Rhymes, and Life
Pharcyde's Labcabin
Snoop's Doggfather
Wu's Wu-Tang Forever
Nas's It Was Written
De La Soul's Stakes is High
Cypress Hill's Temples of Boom
Now none of those are BAD albums, they're all pretty dope, but in every single case, the album before it was incredible (Midnight Marauders, Bizarre Ride, Doggystyle, 36 Chambers, Illmatic, Balloon Mindstate, Black Sunday), so they seem lackluster in comparison
During 92/93/94, the quality was so high, I think everyone expected it to keep going and keep getting more colorful and breaking ground but instead you got a lot of quite restrained, stifled, unconfident albums, and that allowed wack shit to fully take a hold because there wasn't a lot going on with "real" Hip-Hop
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
So glad over here that the torch got passed on to the Organized Noize's, 8ball & MJG's, UGK's, Three 6 Mafia's, Cash Money's of the world. Even No Limit had some stellar releases by the likes of Young Bleed, Fiend, and Soulja Slim. Can't say I was ever into Puffy's stable, but y'all stay trippin' on some dumb ish.
Yeah thats right it was wreckx-n-effect - so where did the double xx posse are hard as fuck thing come from? I remember some anecdote being attached to that.
Anyway, looking at rap year lists, personally i'd have to say 96/97 is when I really started getting a sinking feeling about the music - a lot of acts were rehashing formulas, suddenly r&b was all up in rap, puff daddy and the lox, master p and them were stinking up the atmosphere, the source started reading like a catalogue of what sucked about rap. And that was just before shit really started going south of the border, it was like going from - 'i cant really cosign this' to - 'man, what the hell is this?'.
I totally agree with you. IMO, Kieth Murray's second album was the last good LP of the 96/97 era. It was all down hill from there. Thank you Puff, P and even Wu start dropping turds.
I agree with the 95/96 thing...
I think a big problem was a lot of dope groups dropped lackluster follow-up albums en masse.
And that just failed to keep the innovation and creativity going and allowed stuff like Master P and Puff to take over
For me these were disappointing -
Tribe's Beats, Rhymes, and Life
Pharcyde's Labcabin
Snoop's Doggfather
Wu's Wu-Tang Forever
Nas's It Was Written
De La Soul's Stakes is High
Cypress Hill's Temples of Boom
Now none of those are BAD albums, they're all pretty dope, but in every single case, the album before it was incredible (Midnight Marauders, Bizarre Ride, Doggystyle, 36 Chambers, Illmatic, Balloon Mindstate, Black Sunday), so they seem lackluster in comparison
During 92/93/94, the quality was so high, I think everyone expected it to keep going and keep getting more colorful and breaking ground but instead you got a lot of quite restrained, stifled, unconfident albums, and that allowed wack shit to fully take a hold because there wasn't a lot going on with "real" Hip-Hop
Yep. Those Snoop, Wu, Nas, and Cypress albums you mention were pretty much turds to me. And I was all over their early output. Shit was just... tired, uncreative, predictable, a lot of it felt boring to me.
Another thing adding to the malaise as I saw it was Hip Hop being fully absorbed into mainstream culture at this point - and it started catering more to the mainstream than to the 'Hip Hop' audience. The pop influence and sensibility started not just creeping in but taking hold fully, with Puff being the prime example. Hello, Sting.
A lot of acts taking off at this point seemed like novelty rap acts geared towards a pop sensibility, at least not a pure 'hip hop' sensibility any more. The Fugees epitomize this imo.
Same period - also the point where lawyers and the music industry basically killed samples and loops for all but the big major label acts, and the smallest of indies, ushering in the synth era. I mean Biz dropped All Samples Cleared! in 93 and that record was like a requiem for creative sampling. I for one have always hated that synthed out Ruff Ryders sound, the 'Up In Here' DMX vibe.
All of a sudden you would be reaching for leftfield stuff like Dj Shadow - and other such acts, a lot of which were already bemoaning the direction of the music.
I think this High And Mighty (who were basically a self admitted throw-back act) tune from 97 really captures the 'east coast / true school' disillusionment a lot of heads felt at that time.
Meanwhile the Pen and pixel acts which had always seemed like some bizarre joke were now getting serious consideration as valid acts. Shit felt like a caricature of a cliche - same old beats, generic content, lyrics and posing. I mean Master P's ' making crack like this' ? Really?
The 'southern/midcoast/throwback west-coast' sound still feels like it was a step back or a step away from the direction the music shoulda coulda woulda taken.
All this being said here it is, 2010, and a lot of great music is still coming out.
Yeah thats right it was wreckx-n-effect - so where did the double xx posse are hard as fuck thing come from? I remember some anecdote being attached to that.
Anyway, looking at rap year lists, personally i'd have to say 96/97 is when I really started getting a sinking feeling about the music - a lot of acts were rehashing formulas, suddenly r&b was all up in rap, puff daddy and the lox, master p and them were stinking up the atmosphere, the source started reading like a catalogue of what sucked about rap. And that was just before shit really started going south of the border, it was like going from - 'i cant really cosign this' to - 'man, what the hell is this?'.
I totally agree with you. IMO, Kieth Murray's second album was the last good LP of the 96/97 era. It was all down hill from there. Thank you Puff, P and even Wu start dropping turds.
I agree with the 95/96 thing...
I think a big problem was a lot of dope groups dropped lackluster follow-up albums en masse.
And that just failed to keep the innovation and creativity going and allowed stuff like Master P and Puff to take over
For me these were disappointing -
Tribe's Beats, Rhymes, and Life
Pharcyde's Labcabin
Snoop's Doggfather
Wu's Wu-Tang Forever
Nas's It Was Written
De La Soul's Stakes is High
Cypress Hill's Temples of Boom
Now none of those are BAD albums, they're all pretty dope, but in every single case, the album before it was incredible (Midnight Marauders, Bizarre Ride, Doggystyle, 36 Chambers, Illmatic, Balloon Mindstate, Black Sunday), so they seem lackluster in comparison
During 92/93/94, the quality was so high, I think everyone expected it to keep going and keep getting more colorful and breaking ground but instead you got a lot of quite restrained, stifled, unconfident albums, and that allowed wack shit to fully take a hold because there wasn't a lot going on with "real" Hip-Hop
Yep. Those Snoop, Wu, and Cypress albums you mention were pretty much turds to me. And I was all over their early output. Shit was just... tired, uncreative, predictable, a lot of it felt boring to me.
Another thing adding to the malaise as I saw it was Hip Hop being fully absorbed into mainstream culture at this point - and it started catering more to the mainstream than to the 'Hip Hop' audience. The pop influence and sensibility started not just creeping in but taking hold fully, with Puff being the prime example. A lot of acts taking off at this point seemed like novelty rap acts geared towards a pop sensibility, at least not a pure 'hip hop' sensibility any more. The Fugees epitomize this imo.
Same period - also the point where lawyers and the music industry basically killed samples and loops for all but the major labels, ushering in the synth era. I mean biz dropped All Samples Cleared! in 93 and that record was like a requiem for creative sampling. I for one always hated that synthed out Ruff Ryders sound, the 'Up In Here' DMX vibe.
All of a sudden if you were reaching for leftfield stuff like Dj Shadow - and other such acts, a lot of which were already bemoaning the direction of the music.
I think this High And Mighty (who were basically a self admitted throw-back act) tune from 97 really captures the 'east coast / true school' disillusionment a lot of heads felt at that time.
Meanwhile the Pen and pixel acts which had always seemed like some bizarre joke were now getting serious consideration as valid acts. Shit felt like a caricature of a cliche - same old beats, generic content, lyrics and posing. I mean Master P's ' making crack like this' ? really? The 'southern-midcoast-throwback west-coast' sound still feels like it was a step back or a step away from the direction the music shoulda coulda woulda taken.
All this being said here it is, 2010, and a lot of great music is still coming out.
So glad over here that the torch got passed on to the Organized Noize's, 8ball & MJG's, UGK's, Three 6 Mafia's, Cash Money's of the world. Even No Limit had some stellar releases by the likes of Young Bleed, Fiend, and Soulja Slim. Can't say I was ever into Puffy's stable, but y'all stay trippin' on some dumb ish.
Harv it's pointless to try and talk to these "hip hop is dead" type dudes about rap. they're stuck in the fucking daisy age with the riggity riggaty rap...
Meanwhile the Pen and pixel acts which had always seemed like some bizarre joke were now getting serious consideration as valid acts.
This is also where things changed a lot... I think it wasn't so much Master P, but with Puff
Because Puffy was associated with Biggie and because Biggie was dope in most people's eyes, it was like everyone sorta collectively gave Puff a pass instead of laughing him out of town ala Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer. Then because people were giving Puffy a pass, then they gave Mase a pass and all types of stuff was given a pass, where a few years earlier the same shit wouldn't be considered "proper" Hip-Hop.
That's why today instead of Lil Wayne being some harmless fun pop act, there's kids claiming he's the best MC. I don't mind pop stuff or simple stuff, but it sucks when dudes are making serious top 5 lists with people who are at an adequate skill level at best.
Also, it's funny that Shadow had that interlude "Why Hip Hop Sucks in '96"... if you try to tell a kid today that Hip-Hop sucked in '96, they look at you like you're crazy, because there is this revisionist history that makes it seem like that was a great time, because of Jay-Z debuting and 2Pac dropping All Eyez On Me, etc. and they can't understand that there was a real feeling of staleness and disappointment around that time and after it.
batmon said:
BigK said:
"real" Hip-Hop
explain
I mean people putting together the music because they liked dope beats and rhymes, rather than trying to make a hit by any means possible. I think because Hip-Hop got a bit stale around that 95/96 time, it let in a bunch of stuff that might not even be that wack, but was just more formulaic and simplistic to come along and grab everyone's attention and that slowly broadened what was considered "real" Hip-Hop. To begin with stuff like Vanilla Ice and Hammer weren't considered on the same page as say Kane or PE or Tribe, but later all types of stuff was suddenly given a pass.
I agree with the 95/96 thing...
I think a big problem was a lot of dope groups dropped lackluster follow-up albums en masse.
And that just failed to keep the innovation and creativity going and allowed stuff like Master P and Puff to take over
For me these were disappointing -
Tribe's Beats, Rhymes, and Life
Pharcyde's Labcabin
Snoop's Doggfather
Wu's Wu-Tang Forever
Nas's It Was Written
De La Soul's Stakes is High
Cypress Hill's Temples of Boom
Now none of those are BAD albums, they're all pretty dope, but in every single case, the album before it was incredible (Midnight Marauders, Bizarre Ride, Doggystyle, 36 Chambers, Illmatic, Balloon Mindstate, Black Sunday), so they seem lackluster in comparison
During 92/93/94, the quality was so high, I think everyone expected it to keep going and keep getting more colorful and breaking ground but instead you got a lot of quite restrained, stifled, unconfident albums, and that allowed wack shit to fully take a hold because there wasn't a lot going on with "real" Hip-Hop
I know I'm probably alone on this one but "It was Written" was and still is my favorite Nas album. "Illmatic" was definitely dope but it was just too short. "It was Written" had "Shoot Outs", "Nas is Coming" & "I gave you Power". I think it was a good follow up album considering "Illmatic" was a record 18 yrs in the making.
Also, "Stakes is High" was my shit. The production was just insane and I think that Pos & Trugoy were pretty impressive on that album. But then again, this is just one mans opinion.
And "Wu-Tang Forever" just had too much hype around it. They hit so big that nothing could properly follow up "36 Chambers". "Wu Tang Forever" seemed like a strike-while-the-irons-hot type album. It had it's bangers but boy did it have it's turds or should I say "Dog Shit". They could've cut that album in half and had a solid follow up. Concept wise, that album was all over the place and most of it made no sense. IMO.
I know I'm probably alone on this one but "It was Written" was and still is my favorite Nas album. "Illmatic" was definitely dope but it was just too short. "It was Written" had "Shoot Outs", "Nas is Coming" & "I gave you Power". I think it was a good follow up album considering "Illmatic" was a record 18 yrs in the making.
Also, "Stakes is High" was my shit. The production was just insane and I think that Pos & Trugoy were pretty impressive on that album. But then again, this is just one mans opinion.
And "Wu-Tang Forever" just had too much hype around it. They hit so big that nothing could properly follow up "36 Chambers". "Wu Tang Forever" seemed like a strike-while-the-irons-hot type album. It had it's bangers but boy did it have it's turds or should I say "Dog Shit". They could've cut that album in half and had a solid follow up. Concept wise, that album was all over the place and most of it made no sense. IMO.
Word, I don't think any of them are bad albums, they're all reasonably dope, it's just innovation-wise, instead of another leap forward, which was what people were expecting, we got a collective step to the side, just treading water, or a little step back in some cases.
It was like the Hip-Hop universe had been expanding until around 96, then it was like, that's all folks, now just work within these perimeters.
I think it's funny that one of the first posts had "The Predator," included, but that seems like the start of Cube's fall off. I mean, I did a lot of listening to Da Lench Mob and Death Certificate last week, and I haven't listened Predator since... college? And, even then it was for the *occasional* "When Will They Shoot." ("Today was a Good Day," being ubiquitous at parties, and therefore only a 12").
b/w
------ Prefers the Staple Singers, "Today Was a Good Day," remix.
And "Wu-Tang Forever" just had too much hype around it. They hit so big that nothing could properly follow up "36 Chambers". "Wu Tang Forever" seemed like a strike-while-the-irons-hot type album. It had it's bangers but boy did it have it's turds or should I say "Dog Shit". They could've cut that album in half and had a solid follow up.
They got too self-indulgent there (rap double albums are never a good idea) and seemed to believe that whatever they put out was gonna work because, goddammit, they're Wu-Tang!
I think it's funny that one of the first posts had "The Predator," included, but that seems like the start of Cube's fall off.
I guess that's true in the sense that it was the first time Cube put out an album that wasn't as good as or better than its predecessor. I remember buying it and thinking, "This isn't as good as Death Certificate," but I enjoyed it (Muggs put in some great production work on that album), and I still think it's a solid album. By the time Lethal Injection rolled around, though, it was clear that Cube was on his way out.
They got too self-indulgent there (rap double albums are never a good idea) and seemed to believe that whatever they put out was gonna work because, goddammit, they???re Wu-Tang!
???Triumph??? was fuckin??? dope, though.
gareth - 05 October 2010 12:02 AM
I think it???s funny that one of the first posts had ???The Predator,??? included, but that seems like the start of Cube???s fall off.
Yeah triumph was good as well as a better tomorrow and hellz wind staff but damn what a let down that album was otherwise.
Also I agree Ice Cube was pretty much over after death certificate. Predator was underwhelming with a few good moments.
Batmon those 2002 tracks are unconvincing imo. In fact the quality of those joints is emblematic re: what were talking about.
Anyway I always found something worthwhile dropping every year right up to the present, but the general excitement about the music - and this is a sentiment i think almost everyone who followed the music since the 80's (70's?) agrees on - made way for mostly disillusionment after the mid nineties -- the generally growing feeling of dissapointment that nothing better, hugely game changing or expansive was really going to come along anymore - with a few pleasant surprises coming along every now and then, although nothing as earth shattering as say tribe, pe, nas or wu at their peak.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
staxwax said:
Anyway I always found something worthwhile dropping every year right up to the present, but the general excitement about the music - and this is a sentiment i think almost everyone who followed the music since the 80's (70's?) agrees on - made way for mostly disillusionment after the mid nineties -- the generally growing feeling of dissapointment that nothing better, hugely game changing or expansive was really going to come along anymore - with a few pleasant surprises coming along every now and then, although nothing as earth shattering as say tribe, pe, nas or wu at their peak.
WRONG! It's so comical to me that you try to speak for everyone with your limited perspective. For instance, Mannie Fresh came up during the golden age, making typical of the day beats for Gregory D, and it wasn't until Mannie went into his own distinct direction that he came up with his wholly innovative and wholly ground-breaking production style. Maybe you yourself don't really like Mannie's production style...but you can't speak for anyone but yourself on that, as I know tons of people who came up on 80's rap who ate up early Cash Money releases with a spoon.
Anyway I always found something worthwhile dropping every year right up to the present, but the general excitement about the music - and this is a sentiment i think almost everyone who followed the music since the 80's (70's?) agrees on - made way for mostly disillusionment after the mid nineties -- the generally growing feeling of dissapointment that nothing better, hugely game changing or expansive was really going to come along anymore - with a few pleasant surprises coming along every now and then, although nothing as earth shattering as say tribe, pe, nas or wu at their peak.
WRONG! It's so comical to me that you try to speak for everyone with your limited perspective. For instance, Mannie Fresh came up during the golden age, making typical of the day beats for Gregory D, and it wasn't until Mannie went into his own distinct direction that he came up with his wholly innovative and wholly ground-breaking production style. Maybe you yourself don't really like Mannie's production style...but you can't speak for anyone but yourself on that, as I know tons of people who came up on 80's rap who ate up early Cash Money releases with a spoon.
Harv--there's no point in engaging these anachronisms. We won this argument years ago.
WRONG! It's so comical to me that you try to speak for everyone with your limited perspective. For instance, Mannie Fresh came up during the golden age, making typical of the day beats for Gregory D, and it wasn't until Mannie went into his own distinct direction that he came up with his wholly innovative and wholly ground-breaking production style. Maybe you yourself don't really like Mannie's production style...but you can't speak for anyone but yourself on that, as I know tons of people who came up on 80's rap who ate up early Cash Money releases with a spoon.
Don't really understand what you're arguing here - are you saying that past 95/96 Hip-Hop AS A WHOLE was still moving forward in LEAPS and bounds creatively?
There was still dope music coming out, there were still people making innovations on their own, but the golden age is regarded as the golden age because on a mass level many, many groups and MCs and producers were innovating and the whole genre was moving forward in new directions.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
BigK said:
HarveyCanal said:
WRONG! It's so comical to me that you try to speak for everyone with your limited perspective. For instance, Mannie Fresh came up during the golden age, making typical of the day beats for Gregory D, and it wasn't until Mannie went into his own distinct direction that he came up with his wholly innovative and wholly ground-breaking production style. Maybe you yourself don't really like Mannie's production style...but you can't speak for anyone but yourself on that, as I know tons of people who came up on 80's rap who ate up early Cash Money releases with a spoon.
Don't really understand what you're arguing here - are you saying that past 95/96 Hip-Hop AS A WHOLE was still moving forward in LEAPS and bounds creatively?
There was still dope music coming out, there were still people making innovations on their own, but the golden age is regarded as the golden age because on a mass level many, many groups and MCs and producers were innovating and the whole genre was moving forward in new directions.
The golden age was considered the golden age before there was even a new age to be comparing it to. And it wasn't originally meant as a diss to all different forms of hip-hop to come.
Plus, the golden age was much more uniform and formulaic than y'all are portraying it to be. Quoting Too $hort..."I made 7 whole albums with no James Brown, and even though I love his music, I just can't stand the way they used it all up and didn't pay the man."
Point being, even during the golden age...artists such as Too $hort and DJ Quik who didn't strictly stick to the boom-bap blueprint of what rap could be were already laying the groundwork for all the great things that were to come post-golden age.
This stupid distinction that y'all are making that says nothing worthwhile has happened in hip-hop since the mid-90's is crazy ignorant retarded.
Comments
This shout-along chorus will always be great:
I will always have a soft spot for that particular record, but agree that the shout-along chorus/east coast stomp aesthetic has generally aged badly.
p.s. 'suburbian area'
So dope.
B/W
Aren't Double XX Posse known for actually being the most wild, hardcore dudes in the industry?
BONUS BEATS:
Isn't Double XX Posse redundant? Like that is actually XXXX Posse
as I recall that rep came from a beating delivered to the one q-tip over some imagined sleight
Nah Wreckx-N-Effect were the dudes that beat Tip down. XX Posse were on some other shit though.
So yeah, I'm not trying to go out like that guy.
"Actually it's Double XX Posse."
"Wouldn't that be XXXX Posse, then?"
"Excuse me, this is my stop."
"BRAVEHEARTS, BRAVEHEARTS!!!!!!!"
Anyway, looking at rap year lists, personally i'd have to say 96/97 is when I really started getting a sinking feeling about the music - a lot of acts were rehashing formulas, suddenly r&b was all up in rap, puff daddy and the lox, master p and them were stinking up the atmosphere, the source started reading like a catalogue of what sucked about rap. And that was just before shit really started going south of the border, it was like going from - 'i cant really cosign this' to - 'man, what the hell is this?'.
I totally agree with you. IMO, Kieth Murray's second album was the last good LP of the 96/97 era. It was all down hill from there. Thank you Puff, P and even Wu start dropping turds.
I agree with the 95/96 thing...
I think a big problem was a lot of dope groups dropped lackluster follow-up albums en masse.
And that just failed to keep the innovation and creativity going and allowed stuff like Master P and Puff to take over
For me these were disappointing -
Tribe's Beats, Rhymes, and Life
Pharcyde's Labcabin
Snoop's Doggfather
Wu's Wu-Tang Forever
Nas's It Was Written
De La Soul's Stakes is High
Cypress Hill's Temples of Boom
Now none of those are BAD albums, they're all pretty dope, but in every single case, the album before it was incredible (Midnight Marauders, Bizarre Ride, Doggystyle, 36 Chambers, Illmatic, Balloon Mindstate, Black Sunday), so they seem lackluster in comparison
During 92/93/94, the quality was so high, I think everyone expected it to keep going and keep getting more colorful and breaking ground but instead you got a lot of quite restrained, stifled, unconfident albums, and that allowed wack shit to fully take a hold because there wasn't a lot going on with "real" Hip-Hop
Yep. Those Snoop, Wu, Nas, and Cypress albums you mention were pretty much turds to me. And I was all over their early output. Shit was just... tired, uncreative, predictable, a lot of it felt boring to me.
Another thing adding to the malaise as I saw it was Hip Hop being fully absorbed into mainstream culture at this point - and it started catering more to the mainstream than to the 'Hip Hop' audience. The pop influence and sensibility started not just creeping in but taking hold fully, with Puff being the prime example. Hello, Sting.
A lot of acts taking off at this point seemed like novelty rap acts geared towards a pop sensibility, at least not a pure 'hip hop' sensibility any more. The Fugees epitomize this imo.
Same period - also the point where lawyers and the music industry basically killed samples and loops for all but the big major label acts, and the smallest of indies, ushering in the synth era. I mean Biz dropped All Samples Cleared! in 93 and that record was like a requiem for creative sampling. I for one have always hated that synthed out Ruff Ryders sound, the 'Up In Here' DMX vibe.
All of a sudden you would be reaching for leftfield stuff like Dj Shadow - and other such acts, a lot of which were already bemoaning the direction of the music.
I think this High And Mighty (who were basically a self admitted throw-back act) tune from 97 really captures the 'east coast / true school' disillusionment a lot of heads felt at that time.
Meanwhile the Pen and pixel acts which had always seemed like some bizarre joke were now getting serious consideration as valid acts. Shit felt like a caricature of a cliche - same old beats, generic content, lyrics and posing. I mean Master P's ' making crack like this' ? Really?
The 'southern/midcoast/throwback west-coast' sound still feels like it was a step back or a step away from the direction the music shoulda coulda woulda taken.
All this being said here it is, 2010, and a lot of great music is still coming out.
ugh
explain
Harv it's pointless to try and talk to these "hip hop is dead" type dudes about rap. they're stuck in the fucking daisy age with the riggity riggaty rap...
This is also where things changed a lot... I think it wasn't so much Master P, but with Puff
Because Puffy was associated with Biggie and because Biggie was dope in most people's eyes, it was like everyone sorta collectively gave Puff a pass instead of laughing him out of town ala Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer. Then because people were giving Puffy a pass, then they gave Mase a pass and all types of stuff was given a pass, where a few years earlier the same shit wouldn't be considered "proper" Hip-Hop.
That's why today instead of Lil Wayne being some harmless fun pop act, there's kids claiming he's the best MC. I don't mind pop stuff or simple stuff, but it sucks when dudes are making serious top 5 lists with people who are at an adequate skill level at best.
Also, it's funny that Shadow had that interlude "Why Hip Hop Sucks in '96"... if you try to tell a kid today that Hip-Hop sucked in '96, they look at you like you're crazy, because there is this revisionist history that makes it seem like that was a great time, because of Jay-Z debuting and 2Pac dropping All Eyez On Me, etc. and they can't understand that there was a real feeling of staleness and disappointment around that time and after it.
I mean people putting together the music because they liked dope beats and rhymes, rather than trying to make a hit by any means possible. I think because Hip-Hop got a bit stale around that 95/96 time, it let in a bunch of stuff that might not even be that wack, but was just more formulaic and simplistic to come along and grab everyone's attention and that slowly broadened what was considered "real" Hip-Hop. To begin with stuff like Vanilla Ice and Hammer weren't considered on the same page as say Kane or PE or Tribe, but later all types of stuff was suddenly given a pass.
I know I'm probably alone on this one but "It was Written" was and still is my favorite Nas album. "Illmatic" was definitely dope but it was just too short. "It was Written" had "Shoot Outs", "Nas is Coming" & "I gave you Power". I think it was a good follow up album considering "Illmatic" was a record 18 yrs in the making.
Also, "Stakes is High" was my shit. The production was just insane and I think that Pos & Trugoy were pretty impressive on that album. But then again, this is just one mans opinion.
And "Wu-Tang Forever" just had too much hype around it. They hit so big that nothing could properly follow up "36 Chambers". "Wu Tang Forever" seemed like a strike-while-the-irons-hot type album. It had it's bangers but boy did it have it's turds or should I say "Dog Shit". They could've cut that album in half and had a solid follow up. Concept wise, that album was all over the place and most of it made no sense. IMO.
Word, I don't think any of them are bad albums, they're all reasonably dope, it's just innovation-wise, instead of another leap forward, which was what people were expecting, we got a collective step to the side, just treading water, or a little step back in some cases.
It was like the Hip-Hop universe had been expanding until around 96, then it was like, that's all folks, now just work within these perimeters.
b/w
------ Prefers the Staple Singers, "Today Was a Good Day," remix.
They got too self-indulgent there (rap double albums are never a good idea) and seemed to believe that whatever they put out was gonna work because, goddammit, they're Wu-Tang!
"Triumph" was fuckin' dope, though.
I guess that's true in the sense that it was the first time Cube put out an album that wasn't as good as or better than its predecessor. I remember buying it and thinking, "This isn't as good as Death Certificate," but I enjoyed it (Muggs put in some great production work on that album), and I still think it's a solid album. By the time Lethal Injection rolled around, though, it was clear that Cube was on his way out.
Yeah triumph was good as well as a better tomorrow and hellz wind staff but damn what a let down that album was otherwise.
Also I agree Ice Cube was pretty much over after death certificate. Predator was underwhelming with a few good moments.
Batmon those 2002 tracks are unconvincing imo. In fact the quality of those joints is emblematic re: what were talking about.
Anyway I always found something worthwhile dropping every year right up to the present, but the general excitement about the music - and this is a sentiment i think almost everyone who followed the music since the 80's (70's?) agrees on - made way for mostly disillusionment after the mid nineties -- the generally growing feeling of dissapointment that nothing better, hugely game changing or expansive was really going to come along anymore - with a few pleasant surprises coming along every now and then, although nothing as earth shattering as say tribe, pe, nas or wu at their peak.
WRONG! It's so comical to me that you try to speak for everyone with your limited perspective. For instance, Mannie Fresh came up during the golden age, making typical of the day beats for Gregory D, and it wasn't until Mannie went into his own distinct direction that he came up with his wholly innovative and wholly ground-breaking production style. Maybe you yourself don't really like Mannie's production style...but you can't speak for anyone but yourself on that, as I know tons of people who came up on 80's rap who ate up early Cash Money releases with a spoon.
Harv--there's no point in engaging these anachronisms. We won this argument years ago.
Don't really understand what you're arguing here - are you saying that past 95/96 Hip-Hop AS A WHOLE was still moving forward in LEAPS and bounds creatively?
There was still dope music coming out, there were still people making innovations on their own, but the golden age is regarded as the golden age because on a mass level many, many groups and MCs and producers were innovating and the whole genre was moving forward in new directions.
The golden age was considered the golden age before there was even a new age to be comparing it to. And it wasn't originally meant as a diss to all different forms of hip-hop to come.
Plus, the golden age was much more uniform and formulaic than y'all are portraying it to be. Quoting Too $hort..."I made 7 whole albums with no James Brown, and even though I love his music, I just can't stand the way they used it all up and didn't pay the man."
Point being, even during the golden age...artists such as Too $hort and DJ Quik who didn't strictly stick to the boom-bap blueprint of what rap could be were already laying the groundwork for all the great things that were to come post-golden age.
This stupid distinction that y'all are making that says nothing worthwhile has happened in hip-hop since the mid-90's is crazy ignorant retarded.