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Jazz Heads: What The Hell Did I Find?

RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
edited August 2010 in Strut Central
Home made ultra-thick gatefold cover wrapped in black construction paper and has two paste-ons. Artist is Paul Collins on piano w/Dave Elliott on bass and Dick Atkinson on drums. They do two Miles Davis cuts (Milestones & Nardis), Thelonious's "Blue Monk" and "Israel" by John Carisi. Disc is an acetate and this may be a one of a kind item?? I'd appreciate any info on the artist or recordings that were done at Hertz Studios.
Thanks in advance.


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  • HorseleechHorseleech 3,830 Posts
    My jazz knowledge is fairly deep and I've never heard of this guy or his bandmates. I have seen demos done up this way, though. Most likely a small number were produced, but who knows how many survive.

    Does it say where they were based?

    Jazz heads tend not to get excited about things like this, but the modern repertoire is a plus (John Carisi has a bit of cred as a compser as well).

    I doubt it would do serious damage on ebay, but if the performances are good and you post sound clips it might do OK.

    EDIT: I just read the liners - the disparaging remarks about the 'inept' rhythm section don't help much.
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Horseleech said:
    My jazz knowledge is fairly deep and I've never heard of this guy or his bandmates. I have seen demos done up this way, though. Most likely a small number were produced, but who knows how many survive.

    Does it say where they were based?

    Jazz heads tend not to get excited about things like this, but the modern repertoire is a plus (John Carisi has a bit of cred as a compser as well).

    I doubt it would do serious damage on ebay, but if the performances are good and you post sound clips it might do OK.

    EDIT: I just read the liners - the disparaging remarks about the 'inept' rhythm section don't help much.

    LOL...the liners were written by the drummer so I assume he's taking a good natured shot at himself.

    I know that the unknown artist / LP does not excite Jazz dudes like it does other genre collectors.

    I would say these takes are mediocre to good but I'm no jazz head, so who knows, they may suck as bad as the liners describe.
  • hcrinkhcrink 8,729 Posts
    Yeah, why is it that jazz dudes don't get all hot and bothered about odd one-off things? I mean, it can be hard to squeeze $30 out of something genuinely cool but little known, and meanwhile you've got some fairly tepid records being sweated because the one good track was comped or whatever.
  • Big_StacksBig_Stacks "I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
    hcrink said:
    Yeah, why is it that jazz dudes don't get all hot and bothered about odd one-off things? I mean, it can be hard to squeeze $30 out of something genuinely cool but little known, and meanwhile you've got some fairly tepid records being sweated because the one good track was comped or whatever.

    Hey Crink,

    My guess would be that jazz heads are probably older, more mature, and more discerning than their younger counterparts who collect from other, more popular genres; however, I could be wrong.

    Peace,

    Big Stacks from Kakalak
  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    Big_Stacks said:
    however, I could be wrong.

    you are

    Mainstream / Bop Jazz fans are primarily interested in known artists - an artist who plays as good as Bill Evans but is totally unknown is of very little interest to them

    in this regard they are similar to crusty Beatles fans, they'd rather just keep buying minor variations of the same record again & again than listen to something new
  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    Soulhawk said:


    in this regard they are similar to crusty Beatles fans, they'd rather just keep buying minor variations of the same record again & again than listen to something new

    Yeah, unlike "real heads," who would rather buy inept cover versions of the same songs again and again rather than listen to something new ;)
  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    yo dog, have you heard this version of 'Put Your Hand in the Hand'???

  • ReynaldoReynaldo 6,054 Posts
    What unknown jazz dude is as good as any of the greats, though?
  • hcrinkhcrink 8,729 Posts
    I mean, yeah, it's not like there are all these unknown dudes out there who are as great as X, Y & Z, but the impression I get is that even if there were crusty deep grove Blue Note dude does not give a fuck. And trendier shit has to have some taste maker stamp of approval attached to it.
  • HorseleechHorseleech 3,830 Posts
    hcrink said:
    I mean, yeah, it's not like there are all these unknown dudes out there who are as great as X, Y & Z, but the impression I get is that even if there were crusty deep grove Blue Note dude does not give a fuck. And trendier shit has to have some taste maker stamp of approval attached to it.

    I think it's both, and one feeds the other. Maybe if there was an underground scene of top flight jazz dudes who only made 100 copy private press records and bounced, then the jazz collecting scene would be different. But the fact is there isn't a deep well of unknown greats who recorded obscure records, in fact I can't think of any.

    I think the main reason these records don't garner much interest is because they are pretty much all second rate, not because jazz collectors are too crusty to give a damn.

    In rock, folk, soul etc there is a place for crudely recorded and played material, but it doesn't really work for jazz, IMO.
  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    depends on the style of jazz obviously - there are a large amount of rare & expensive private dashiki jazz records

    the people that collect that stuff are pretty different than the DEEP GROOVE RVG EAR crowd tho
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Soulhawk said:
    depends on the style of jazz obviously - there are a large amount of rare & expensive private dashiki jazz records


    Agreed.....certainly somewhere there is a recording of a dude and his 12 piece drum set falling down a long flight of stairs that Free Jazz dudes would flip over.
  • HorseleechHorseleech 3,830 Posts
    Soulhawk said:
    depends on the style of jazz obviously - there are a large amount of rare & expensive private dashiki jazz records

    the people that collect that stuff are pretty different than the DEEP GROOVE RVG EAR crowd tho

    Yeah, I'm referring only to straight ahead jazz. In fact some of the best dashiki/free/avant records are privates.
  • tabiratabira 856 Posts
    Horseleech said:
    Maybe if there was an underground scene of top flight jazz dudes who only made 100 copy private press records and bounced, then the jazz collecting scene would be different. But the fact is there isn't a deep well of unknown greats who recorded obscure records, in fact I can't think of any.

    In rock, folk, soul etc there is a place for crudely recorded and played material, but it doesn't really work for jazz, IMO.

    I think you have a point here. Jazz's golden age from the crustys' point of view was over by the mid-late 60s. It seems to me that before fusion took over the main vehicle for self promotion was being a sideman in an established (and recording) band rather than privately recording your own work. Everyone from Parker through to Miles and Coltrane cut their teeth that way. With a few exceptions aside like Sun Ra, I would guess that mainly "groups" only (Ie rock music) cut demo recordings from a position of total obscurity. If I'm wrong let me know with some examples please , I'm curious. Come the 70s you get the fusion and funk "groups" and a mushrooming of private label recordings but by then the crusty's interest in contemporary jazz flavoured music had waned ......

    When was this done?
  • HorseleechHorseleech 3,830 Posts
    tabira said:
    If I'm wrong let me know with some examples please , I'm curious.

    J.R. Monterose comes close, though he has a Blue Note record (one of the few white dudes who does).

    He has a private press Lp, 'In Action' that's pretty good, and his Jaro Lp is a masterpiece, though that's not exactly private. He played high profile gigs with Mingus and others, but seemed to prefer playing in small towns with lesser known sidemen.

    Really, Sun Ra is the only example of a genuine jazz outsider from the 50's - mid 60's I can think of.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    I have some opinions on this... what don't I have opinions on?

    A straight ahead private press guy criminally overlooked would be Johnny Shacklett.


    A straight a head guy who is not "a giant" and is on a major label, who crusty dudes pay money for is Lee Gagnon. I think there might be other non-US players that fall in this category.

    The question is:
    Is jazz more merit based than popular styles?
    Are the best musicians and performances guaranteed acceptance?
    Are the 2nd best left by the wayside?
    If they are does that mean that Brubeck is better than Evans?

    Opinions?
  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    I've bought and sold a few small press jazz things that got decent return. Usually 70's stuff that will have one known name and some lesser-known players. I guess the discussion is true unknowns, which is different and yes, definitely of lesser value. But stuff like Al Williams Quintet "Sandance" and Kamal & the Brothers (admittedly with Idris Muhammad and James Spaulding, but a tiny press street-level thing) are desired and sell for decent money.
  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    Crink: stop trying to impose your bonercentric values on jazz
  • ReynaldoReynaldo 6,054 Posts
    Horseleech said:
    Soulhawk said:
    depends on the style of jazz obviously - there are a large amount of rare & expensive private dashiki jazz records

    the people that collect that stuff are pretty different than the DEEP GROOVE RVG EAR crowd tho

    Yeah, I'm referring only to straight ahead jazz. In fact some of the best dashiki/free/avant records are privates.
    What about that Frank Cunimondo Trio & Lynn Marino record? It's straight ahead but it's got vocals. It's private. Are crusty jazz dudes buying it?
  • HorseleechHorseleech 3,830 Posts
    Reynaldo said:
    Horseleech said:
    Soulhawk said:
    depends on the style of jazz obviously - there are a large amount of rare & expensive private dashiki jazz records

    the people that collect that stuff are pretty different than the DEEP GROOVE RVG EAR crowd tho

    Yeah, I'm referring only to straight ahead jazz. In fact some of the best dashiki/free/avant records are privates.
    What about that Frank Cunimondo Trio & Lynn Marino record? It's straight ahead but it's got vocals. It's private. Are crusty jazz dudes buying it?

    No, as far as I can tell it's almost strictly beat diggers buying his records.

    Back in the mid 90's I was mostly a jazz dealer and his records weren't sweated at all.

    There's a female vocalist market that is parallel, but separate from the jazz market, it probably sells there also.
  • hcrinkhcrink 8,729 Posts
    I don't even really know what point I was trying to make. I realize the parameters open up a lot more with free/dashiki/etc, but even then, it seems like there isn't enthusiasm for totally off the wall new discoveries at anywhere near the same level as some other genres. People seem to be looking for known little known titles, or unknown titles with involvement by some known dude. I guess there's some exceptions (the PE Hewitt stuff comes to mind), but they seem sorta few & far between. I should make it clear that I'm not a jazz collector AT ALL though, so I could be totally off.
  • JimsterJimster Cruffiton.etsy.com 6,891 Posts
    Reynaldo said:
    What unknown jazz dude is as good as any of the greats, though?

    Serious?

    Loads of 'em. I've gigged with plenty of players who were as good as, if not better, than dudes who had deals or "Names". But for whatever reason, opportunity never came knocking or was turned away at the door by the wife who didn't want her man on the road b/w they prefer the regular income of being a post-man / tax inspector etc.

    Early on I used to ask them why they weren't better known after being blown away by what I'd heard, but the answer seems to be that:

    There are only so many seats on the "Jazz for a living" bus and besides the talent, you have to have the business skills, social networking / bullshitting skills and the willpower to put your music above family and income.

    But yeah, the dudes were just as good as the guys making money now.
  • ReynaldoReynaldo 6,054 Posts
    I should have capitalized Greats. I'm talking Miles, Monk, Coltrane, Ellington, Mingus, etc. You just don't give up that kind of talent for a woman and a day job. You met Mingus the mailman? Trane the tax collector?

    And I'm looking for names, but there are none, 'cause those unkown unknowns weren't that good (Great).
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    I've been collecting only Jazz 10" for the last couple of months and its been a lot of fun. The format perfoms the dual function of keeping me from trying to buy up everything under the sun and was the typical medium for the jazz I'm interested in, late swing and modern. Plus, you ocasionally have people selling them cheap because they don't know what they are. Mostly the Pacific Jazz stuff like Chet Baker and Mulligan, Fantasy stuff, Clef, Riverside, Discovery. There are also a lot of nice reissues out there from Blue Note EMI and the Prestige catalog.
  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Reynaldo said:
    I should have capitalized Greats. I'm talking Miles, Monk, Coltrane, Ellington, Mingus, etc. You just don't give up that kind of talent for a woman and a day job. You met Mingus the mailman? Trane the tax collector?

    And I'm looking for names, but there are none, 'cause those unkown unknowns weren't that good (Great).

    My guess(and it's just a guess) is that there are very talented players who play(ed) Coltrane/Miles style jazz from 1970 forward that just never got the recognition/fame because jazz heads see them as "modern" players who could not possibly be as good as the "masters"

    Kinda like how hard core 50's Rockabilly headz view the Stray Cats.

    So the talent could very well be out there with no true audience to appreciate it?
  • sabadabadasabadabada 5,966 Posts
    Rockadelic said:
    Reynaldo said:
    I should have capitalized Greats. I'm talking Miles, Monk, Coltrane, Ellington, Mingus, etc. You just don't give up that kind of talent for a woman and a day job. You met Mingus the mailman? Trane the tax collector?

    And I'm looking for names, but there are none, 'cause those unkown unknowns weren't that good (Great).

    My guess(and it's just a guess) is that there are very talented players who play(ed) Coltrane/Miles style jazz from 1970 forward that just never got the recognition/fame because jazz heads see them as "modern" players who could not possibly be as good as the "masters"

    Kinda like how hard core 50's Rockabilly headz view the Stray Cats.

    So the talent could very well be out there with no true audience to appreciate it?

    Here you go. You answered your own question.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Stray-Cats-Sexy-17-7-Single-Rockabilly-1983-Rare-NR-/180545774652?pt=Music_on_Vinyl
  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    What I want to know is, is there ONE collector of jazz 45's in the WORLD?

    Could there be a less sought-after genre/format combo?
  • JazzsuckaJazzsucka 720 Posts
    SoulOnIce said:
    What I want to know is, is there ONE collector of jazz 45's in the WORLD?

    Could there be a less sought-after genre/format combo?

    I love jazz 45's. Apparently Jazzman Gerald does as well. Here is his jazz 45 only set from Gilles Peterson's show:

    Jazzman mix
  • fishmongerfunkfishmongerfunk 4,154 Posts
    Reynaldo said:
    You met Mingus the mailman? Trane the tax collector? And I'm looking for names, but there are none, 'cause those unkown unknowns weren't that good (Great).

    that's total bs.

    plenty of supremely talented jazzers led chaotic, haphazard lives, were unlucky, etc...and basically stayed local. i have heard stories about jazzers who were afraid to leave their hometown for too long for fear they wouldn;t be able to get any heroin or whatever else...some of these "unknown greats" get discovered late in life or after they die.

    in any event not everyone measures "success" by how rich or famous a person is.

    to me, lenny breau is the greatest guitar player who ever did it (he was murdered in the early 80's over drugs) but thanks to a handful of dedicated fans, he is starting to get the recognition he deserves.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Reynaldo said:
    I should have capitalized Greats. I'm talking Miles, Monk, Coltrane, Ellington, Mingus, etc. You just don't give up that kind of talent for a woman and a day job. You met Mingus the mailman? Trane the tax collector?

    And I'm looking for names, but there are none, 'cause those unknown unknowns weren't that good (Great).

    I think in general, GREATS are great at not only innovating and composing, but also putting a band together and getting paid.
    Not only do they dedicate their lives to music, but also taking care of business.

    The Jimmy Scott's bio (recommended) details the life of a guy who had the talent but not the band leading/business skills. [BUT he is recognized by jazz hounds and his records fetch dollars.]

    Billy Strayhorn was as talented as your list, but always in the shadow. [He did OK as Ellington's Right Hand Man, never broke out.]

    I am sure there are guys who did not want to do NYC or LA, did not want to do late nights in smokey clubs, who could have been up there. Maybe not with your list, but with the next tier, who made records for Blue Note, Riverside, Prestige, Fantasy...
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