i guess france will be like europe's arizona
sarkozy want the FN votes and he will gamble and win
better to talk about this than the bettencourt $$ scandal
it allso takes heat away from the swiss ban on constructing minarets
the thing is this ban and its ''enforcement'' will only galvinise radicals both religious and anti-immigration and continue to exacerbates division/tensions
this might ultimately actually force more women to wear it
continue to exacerbates division/tensions
this might ultimately actually force more women to wear it
How will it force them?
I keep hearing about how this will stigmatize Muslims and increase divisions and tensions...but how so more than wearing a niqab?? What makes a human less approachable - less human actually - than that?
Edit - at least this is cause for discussion, people might actually learn some things they never knew about Islam, etc.
Makes me wonder if head scarves will be de-radicalized and be considered moderate! (And really, they're not that big a deal...how many dudes you know whose head you have never seen for the ball cap/toque? There are dreads, both men and women, who also keep their hair wrapped and wear modest, to-the-ankle and and to-the-wrist clothing)
I have been having this conversation - as I am sure you all have been - for a long time, and the most frustrating aspect of it is the absence of the voice of women who don the kit. I know there are forums, etc. but I want to read/hear them in the news, I want to hear them involved in a discusion/debate, you know?
I have been having this conversation - as I am sure you all have been - for a long time, and the most frustrating aspect of it is the absence of the voice of women who don the kit. I know there are forums, etc. but I want to read/hear them in the news, I want to hear them involved in a discusion/debate, you know?
pari
i agree with this 100%
it's a shame
i've watched a documentary and a couple of newsspecials on this initiative before it was passed
the sentiment from the cit??s (paris innercity) is that a lot of the muslim youth were very moderately religious
in the late 90'searly00s but that after 9/11 and victories for the FN
the social pressure to wear the hijab (not niqab specifically) has grown tremendously in response to racism and segregation from the outside society with youth groups walking around intimidating young girls in the cit??
it has increased the pressure on them to wear it and has exarcebated the twisted cultural pride/defend your rights element of their argumentation
even here in canada we have that historic ruling for sihks to wear the headwrap
but we have kicked out 2 muslim students for wearing a niqab and are having this huge debate for voting with a niqab on
basically most cultural compromise clashes always end up as ill informed shouting matches
with the legal side of thing putting a huge dent into the situation
banning religious symbol is only the beginning some will say,
if i went to their country i would adapt
we are a land built on diversity
will we have to accomodate everyone and then loose our own identity in the process
rinse,repeat...
just having a full society well versed in its own identity (knowing and embracing it)
than carefully understanding others and the tedious aspects involved in comprehendin and judging other others
than finally have everyone on the same page about how we are to respectfully discuss these issues (the cultural townhalls we had in QC were an abomination)
all of that is already an impossible task
but let's all rush to vote one way or another on a super divisive issue
GO!
LOSE YOUR COUNTRY AND BOW DOWN TO ALLAH or
let your patriotic voice be heard once and for all and TKE BACK THIS LAND!
it just seems everytime these debates pop up the core issue is never adressed
and the dessension and dividing gap is widened
I have been having this conversation - as I am sure you all have been - for a long time, and the most frustrating aspect of it is the absence of the voice of women who don the kit. I know there are forums, etc. but I want to read/hear them in the news, I want to hear them involved in a discusion/debate, you know?
Over here in France, I find their relative absence from a debate that's centred on them quite telling. There have been one or two voices, but mostly from defenders of the burka who don't wear it themselves.
I have been having this conversation - as I am sure you all have been - for a long time, and the most frustrating aspect of it is the absence of the voice of women who don the kit. I know there are forums, etc. but I want to read/hear them in the news, I want to hear them involved in a discusion/debate, you know?
pari
i agree with this 100%
it's a shame
i've watched a documentary and a couple of newsspecials on this initiative before it was passed
the sentiment from the cit??s (paris innercity) is that a lot of the muslim youth were very moderately religious
in the late 90'searly00s but that after 9/11 and victories for the FN
the social pressure to wear the hijab (not niqab specifically) has grown tremendously in response to racism and segregation from the outside society with youth groups walking around intimidating young girls in the cit??
it has increased the pressure on them to wear it and has exarcebated the twisted cultural pride/defend your rights element of their argumentation
I do not in any way equate the hijab with the niqab.
And I would not characterize someone's heightened cultural, religious, whathaveyou pride in the face of demonization and misinformation as twisted.
Intimidation and coercion are not products of pride.
I cannot comment on (new) social pressures - I do not know one woman who started wearing her headscarf post-September 11 or from familial/social pressures post-Septmber 11.
One of the pleasures of living in Toronto - specifically working and living in areas with a large Muslim population - is two worlds meeting. I love the dynamics of two teenage girls sitting across the bus aisle from eachother - one in a gown and head scarf, the other in low-cut top and batty shorts. What do they think of each other, who takes pride in whatever freedom they feel they have over the other, who has more pressure to look a certain way, if they were friends, what would they do...and so on. I love it.
This is really about a widespread fear of Muslim subversion of European culture, not women's rights.
It can be about both.
It is
There must be lots of non-Muslim face covering that I haven't heard about.
I'm guessing there's a lot of shit you haven't heard about.
Do you actually know anything you can share here?
Or are you just another troll who insults strangers in the safety of their own mind?
What u talking about? I'm not trying to personally insult you. It just seems you don't really know what you're talking about, yet you're keen on blindly putting your point of view across anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you've lived in France, or other European countries with large Muslim population. Maybe you're well versed on the subject in general.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know it nowhere near as simple as you seem to think it it is. Bassie posted a pretty enlightened piece on the topic, which said pretty much all I'd want to on the subject and better than I ever could.
Unfortunately it's a very American point of view to naturally assume it's about oppression of a minority. The problem is, it's a uniquely European problem, which most Americans don't actually understand the complexities of.
Unfortunately it's a very American point of view to naturally assume it's about oppression of a minority. The problem is, it's a uniquely European problem, which most Americans don't actually understand the complexities of.
Agreed.
The American point of view is partly informed by our tradition of freedom of religion.
We accept, and protect, religious extremes that other societies would never tolerate.
For example, here in Oregon we have faith healers who deny their children medical care.
in other parts of the country their are religious bigamists.
ln both examples, prosecutors would like to put an end to theses practices, but find it difficult because of freedom of religion.
Doubtful that the outlawing of any religious dress would ever pass of be enforced here.
Unfortunately it's a very American point of view to naturally assume it's about oppression of a minority. The problem is, it's a uniquely European problem, which most Americans don't actually understand the complexities of.
There is a distinctly European phenomenon going on at the moment wherein a number of so called "liberal" states - Belgium, Denmark, Holland, Switzerland, Britain and Sweden to name a few - are all reassessing their attitudes towards immigration and multi culteralism. I think that this would've happened with or without 9-11. People are just waking up to that fact that 100% tolerance is self defeating and that preserving a cherished culture of tolerance paradoxically requires defining the limits very clearly. That's why I don't prescribe to the "slippery slope" theory that says "today the niqab, tomorrow it's party masks and sunglasses that will be banned ". It's the preservation and demarcation of tolerance, not an attack on it, that we're witnessing. Many liberal minded people no longer have a complex about outlawing certain things that they find abhorrent.
Unfortunately it's a very American point of view to naturally assume it's about oppression of a minority. The problem is, it's a uniquely European problem, which most Americans don't actually understand the complexities of.
Agreed.
The American point of view is partly informed by our tradition of freedom of religion.
We accept, and protect, religious extremes that other societies would never tolerate.
For example, here in Oregon we have faith healers who deny their children medical care.
in other parts of the country their are religious bigamists.
ln both examples, prosecutors would like to put an end to theses practices, but find it difficult because of freedom of religion.
Doubtful that the outlawing of any religious dress would ever pass of be enforced here.
As a nation forged by people escaping opression and then fighting it again on their own soil, it's understandable that this might run deep in the american psyche. I think that American's are much warier of authority than Europeans making it harder, for good and for bad, to legislate against this or that custom or group and against gun ownership.
Unfortunately it's a very American point of view to naturally assume it's about oppression of a minority. The problem is, it's a uniquely European problem, which most Americans don't actually understand the complexities of.
There is a distinctly European phenomenon going on at the moment wherein a number of so called "liberal" states - Belgium, Denmark, Holland, Switzerland, Britain and Sweden to name a few - are all reassessing their attitudes towards immigration and multi culteralism. I think that this would've happened with or without 9-11. People are just waking up to that fact that 100% tolerance is self defeating and that preserving a cherished culture of tolerance paradoxically requires defining the limits very clearly. That's why I don't prescribe to the "slippery slope" theory that says "today the niqab, tomorrow it's party masks and sunglasses that will be banned ". It's the preservation and demarcation of tolerance, not an attack on it, that we're witnessing. Many liberal minded people no longer have a complex about outlawing certain things that they find abhorrent.
I can't help but wonder that eventually it will reach a point where there is a wave of nationalism throughouht Europe and all these immigrants - and I don't mean to be crass or insensitive but it is somewhat of a historical fact - all these immigrants don't end up in an oven somewhere.
Unfortunately it's a very American point of view to naturally assume it's about oppression of a minority. The problem is, it's a uniquely European problem, which most Americans don't actually understand the complexities of.
There is a distinctly European phenomenon going on at the moment wherein a number of so called "liberal" states - Belgium, Denmark, Holland, Switzerland, Britain and Sweden to name a few - are all reassessing their attitudes towards immigration and multi culteralism. I think that this would've happened with or without 9-11. People are just waking up to that fact that 100% tolerance is self defeating and that preserving a cherished culture of tolerance paradoxically requires defining the limits very clearly. That's why I don't prescribe to the "slippery slope" theory that says "today the niqab, tomorrow it's party masks and sunglasses that will be banned ". It's the preservation and demarcation of tolerance, not an attack on it, that we're witnessing. Many liberal minded people no longer have a complex about outlawing certain things that they find abhorrent.
I can't help but wonder that eventually it will reach a point where there is a wave of nationalism throughouht Europe and all these immigrants - and I don't mean to be crass or insensitive but it is somewhat of a historical fact - all these immigrants don't end up in an oven somewhere.
I think that sensible legislation that tries to respond to peoples' concerns will contain the dangerous impulses that could otherwise lead to this. What scares me more than anything is a culture of political correctness that stifles open and mature debate on these issues and creates a pressure-cooker effect of resentment and frustration that will one day explode. In france 25% of the population voted for the FN. You can't ignore the views of a quarter of the population however misguided or wrong they are - you have to bring them back into the middle ground. No politician tried to do this in the Weimar republic.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know it nowhere near as simple as you seem to think it it is. Bassie posted a pretty enlightened piece on the topic, which said pretty much all I'd want to on the subject and better than I ever could.
And she did it while sharing knowledge and without resorting to petty insults, you could learn something from her.
Okem said:
Unfortunately it's a very American point of view to naturally assume it's about oppression of a minority. The problem is, it's a uniquely European problem, which most Americans don't actually understand the complexities of.
If you're still referring to my post, I never said it was about the oppression of a minority, I said it was about the preservation of an existing culture in it's homeland.
Rightly or wrongly, many Europeans are worried about the future of their culture as they know it. Some of them are your typical right-wing hate mongers who are drumming up ill will against foreigners, but many of them are simply people who love their culture and are freaking out when they read that their country might have Sharia law in 50 years or less if Muslim immigration and birth rates continue at the present rate.
Personally, I don't think this will happen. Historically, birth rates decline over time and immigration slows, but if you don't think this fear is real then you haven't been paying attention.
Whether this is the driving force behind the current legislation in France is a matter of opinion, and I stated mine.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know it nowhere near as simple as you seem to think it it is. Bassie posted a pretty enlightened piece on the topic, which said pretty much all I'd want to on the subject and better than I ever could.
And she did it while sharing knowledge and without resorting to petty insults, you could learn something from her.
Now who's being petty.
Horseleech said:
Okem said:
Unfortunately it's a very American point of view to naturally assume it's about oppression of a minority. The problem is, it's a uniquely European problem, which most Americans don't actually understand the complexities of.
If you're still referring to my post, I never said it was about the oppression of a minority, I said it was about the preservation of an existing culture in it's homeland.
Rightly or wrongly, many Europeans are worried about the future of their culture as they know it. Some of them are your typical right-wing hate mongers who are drumming up ill will against foreigners, but many of them are simply people who love their culture and are freaking out when they read that their country might have Sharia law in 50 years or less if Muslim immigration and birth rates continue at the present rate.
Personally, I don't think this will happen. Historically, birth rates decline over time and immigration slows, but if you don't think this fear is real then you haven't been paying attention.
Whether this is the driving force behind the current legislation in France is a matter of opinion, and I stated mine.
You still sound like you read some article or watched some documentary and now think you understand it all.
First off, there's not really such thing as 'Europeans' or 'Europe' in this context. The situation in France is not comparable to say Ireland, or Romania, or Finland.
The French ban all sorts of, what they see as, polluting foreign influences. They don't like American chain stores, or the Americanization and homogenization of their culture either, so they made a bunch of laws to try and stop that shit too.
Personally I've never met a European who seriously fears Sharia law taking over. (but admittedly I don't hang out with racist idiots.)
Have you ever actually spent time here and talked with the people about such things? Or are you just repeating opinions of others, whilst claiming others are ignorant of the situation.
I'm not sure how "the driving force behind the current legislation in France" can possibly be a matter of opinion? As other have already said, which you just seemed to ignore, there are many factors to it, and they have ALL contributed to the French's decision. Some good some bad. This is a fact. You have just chosen to believe one is more true than the others.
im Muslim and in my experience, the women I meet who wear niqab, do so out of strictly a religious, usually a neo-"Salafi" conviction. Family rarely plays a part. In fact, most people who comment on the veil do not understand the complexities and the nuances of these issues. For example, a man with a full beard in living a Muslim country or a woman with a niqab is usually looked at as a fringe political entity, and with suspicion. My point is, women with niqabs, agree with their choice or not, very rarely fit the "subjugated" stereotype. Some of the proudest champions of the face-veils, for example, are recent women converts, especially in the African American community.
Another issue is simple legality. Unless the authorities demand on the spot identification, the forceful removal of someone's attire, no matter how much it covers, is without merit. You can't ban something just because it irritates your sensibilities.
And the whole thing of "you come here, you become like us" is fine, except that in the case with France and many European states, the immigrants are often children of the previously colonized, who were subjugated to work for the Empire, so lets not get too sensitive here, nahmsayin?
Comments
I know you know you know
sarkozy want the FN votes and he will gamble and win
better to talk about this than the bettencourt $$ scandal
it allso takes heat away from the swiss ban on constructing minarets
the thing is this ban and its ''enforcement'' will only galvinise radicals both religious and anti-immigration and continue to exacerbates division/tensions
this might ultimately actually force more women to wear it
How will it force them?
I keep hearing about how this will stigmatize Muslims and increase divisions and tensions...but how so more than wearing a niqab?? What makes a human less approachable - less human actually - than that?
Edit - at least this is cause for discussion, people might actually learn some things they never knew about Islam, etc.
Makes me wonder if head scarves will be de-radicalized and be considered moderate! (And really, they're not that big a deal...how many dudes you know whose head you have never seen for the ball cap/toque? There are dreads, both men and women, who also keep their hair wrapped and wear modest, to-the-ankle and and to-the-wrist clothing)
I have been having this conversation - as I am sure you all have been - for a long time, and the most frustrating aspect of it is the absence of the voice of women who don the kit. I know there are forums, etc. but I want to read/hear them in the news, I want to hear them involved in a discusion/debate, you know?
i agree with this 100%
it's a shame
i've watched a documentary and a couple of newsspecials on this initiative before it was passed
the sentiment from the cit??s (paris innercity) is that a lot of the muslim youth were very moderately religious
in the late 90'searly00s but that after 9/11 and victories for the FN
the social pressure to wear the hijab (not niqab specifically) has grown tremendously in response to racism and segregation from the outside society with youth groups walking around intimidating young girls in the cit??
it has increased the pressure on them to wear it and has exarcebated the twisted cultural pride/defend your rights element of their argumentation
but we have kicked out 2 muslim students for wearing a niqab and are having this huge debate for voting with a niqab on
basically most cultural compromise clashes always end up as ill informed shouting matches
with the legal side of thing putting a huge dent into the situation
banning religious symbol is only the beginning some will say,
if i went to their country i would adapt
we are a land built on diversity
will we have to accomodate everyone and then loose our own identity in the process
rinse,repeat...
just having a full society well versed in its own identity (knowing and embracing it)
than carefully understanding others and the tedious aspects involved in comprehendin and judging other others
than finally have everyone on the same page about how we are to respectfully discuss these issues (the cultural townhalls we had in QC were an abomination)
all of that is already an impossible task
but let's all rush to vote one way or another on a super divisive issue
GO!
LOSE YOUR COUNTRY AND BOW DOWN TO ALLAH or
let your patriotic voice be heard once and for all and TKE BACK THIS LAND!
it just seems everytime these debates pop up the core issue is never adressed
and the dessension and dividing gap is widened
"Ninjas don't kill people. Pat Morita playing ninjas kills people. I'll throw the switch on Pat Morita any day of the week."
Over here in France, I find their relative absence from a debate that's centred on them quite telling. There have been one or two voices, but mostly from defenders of the burka who don't wear it themselves.
There must be lots of non-Muslim face covering that I haven't heard about.
I do not in any way equate the hijab with the niqab.
And I would not characterize someone's heightened cultural, religious, whathaveyou pride in the face of demonization and misinformation as twisted.
Intimidation and coercion are not products of pride.
I cannot comment on (new) social pressures - I do not know one woman who started wearing her headscarf post-September 11 or from familial/social pressures post-Septmber 11.
One of the pleasures of living in Toronto - specifically working and living in areas with a large Muslim population - is two worlds meeting. I love the dynamics of two teenage girls sitting across the bus aisle from eachother - one in a gown and head scarf, the other in low-cut top and batty shorts. What do they think of each other, who takes pride in whatever freedom they feel they have over the other, who has more pressure to look a certain way, if they were friends, what would they do...and so on. I love it.
I'm guessing there's a lot of shit you haven't heard about.
lol - the ferry leaves hourly!
Do you actually know anything you can share here?
Or are you just another troll who insults strangers in the safety of their own mind?
What u talking about? I'm not trying to personally insult you. It just seems you don't really know what you're talking about, yet you're keen on blindly putting your point of view across anyway.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you've lived in France, or other European countries with large Muslim population. Maybe you're well versed on the subject in general.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know it nowhere near as simple as you seem to think it it is. Bassie posted a pretty enlightened piece on the topic, which said pretty much all I'd want to on the subject and better than I ever could.
Unfortunately it's a very American point of view to naturally assume it's about oppression of a minority. The problem is, it's a uniquely European problem, which most Americans don't actually understand the complexities of.
Agreed.
The American point of view is partly informed by our tradition of freedom of religion.
We accept, and protect, religious extremes that other societies would never tolerate.
For example, here in Oregon we have faith healers who deny their children medical care.
in other parts of the country their are religious bigamists.
ln both examples, prosecutors would like to put an end to theses practices, but find it difficult because of freedom of religion.
Doubtful that the outlawing of any religious dress would ever pass of be enforced here.
There is a distinctly European phenomenon going on at the moment wherein a number of so called "liberal" states - Belgium, Denmark, Holland, Switzerland, Britain and Sweden to name a few - are all reassessing their attitudes towards immigration and multi culteralism. I think that this would've happened with or without 9-11. People are just waking up to that fact that 100% tolerance is self defeating and that preserving a cherished culture of tolerance paradoxically requires defining the limits very clearly. That's why I don't prescribe to the "slippery slope" theory that says "today the niqab, tomorrow it's party masks and sunglasses that will be banned ". It's the preservation and demarcation of tolerance, not an attack on it, that we're witnessing. Many liberal minded people no longer have a complex about outlawing certain things that they find abhorrent.
As a nation forged by people escaping opression and then fighting it again on their own soil, it's understandable that this might run deep in the american psyche. I think that American's are much warier of authority than Europeans making it harder, for good and for bad, to legislate against this or that custom or group and against gun ownership.
I can't help but wonder that eventually it will reach a point where there is a wave of nationalism throughouht Europe and all these immigrants - and I don't mean to be crass or insensitive but it is somewhat of a historical fact - all these immigrants don't end up in an oven somewhere.
I think that sensible legislation that tries to respond to peoples' concerns will contain the dangerous impulses that could otherwise lead to this. What scares me more than anything is a culture of political correctness that stifles open and mature debate on these issues and creates a pressure-cooker effect of resentment and frustration that will one day explode. In france 25% of the population voted for the FN. You can't ignore the views of a quarter of the population however misguided or wrong they are - you have to bring them back into the middle ground. No politician tried to do this in the Weimar republic.
And she did it while sharing knowledge and without resorting to petty insults, you could learn something from her.
If you're still referring to my post, I never said it was about the oppression of a minority, I said it was about the preservation of an existing culture in it's homeland.
Rightly or wrongly, many Europeans are worried about the future of their culture as they know it. Some of them are your typical right-wing hate mongers who are drumming up ill will against foreigners, but many of them are simply people who love their culture and are freaking out when they read that their country might have Sharia law in 50 years or less if Muslim immigration and birth rates continue at the present rate.
Personally, I don't think this will happen. Historically, birth rates decline over time and immigration slows, but if you don't think this fear is real then you haven't been paying attention.
Whether this is the driving force behind the current legislation in France is a matter of opinion, and I stated mine.
Now who's being petty.
You still sound like you read some article or watched some documentary and now think you understand it all.
First off, there's not really such thing as 'Europeans' or 'Europe' in this context. The situation in France is not comparable to say Ireland, or Romania, or Finland.
The French ban all sorts of, what they see as, polluting foreign influences. They don't like American chain stores, or the Americanization and homogenization of their culture either, so they made a bunch of laws to try and stop that shit too.
Personally I've never met a European who seriously fears Sharia law taking over. (but admittedly I don't hang out with racist idiots.)
Have you ever actually spent time here and talked with the people about such things? Or are you just repeating opinions of others, whilst claiming others are ignorant of the situation.
I'm not sure how "the driving force behind the current legislation in France" can possibly be a matter of opinion? As other have already said, which you just seemed to ignore, there are many factors to it, and they have ALL contributed to the French's decision. Some good some bad. This is a fact. You have just chosen to believe one is more true than the others.
Another issue is simple legality. Unless the authorities demand on the spot identification, the forceful removal of someone's attire, no matter how much it covers, is without merit. You can't ban something just because it irritates your sensibilities.
And the whole thing of "you come here, you become like us" is fine, except that in the case with France and many European states, the immigrants are often children of the previously colonized, who were subjugated to work for the Empire, so lets not get too sensitive here, nahmsayin?