Freestyles are written?

BigK

I always thought originally a freestyle was off the top of the dome, but I now come to find that it's the other way around...

According to Big Daddy Kane originally they were all written down and it was only later the term came to mean improvised -

HarveyCanal

Welcome to 1994.

hertzhog

Yeah, this is pretty much common knowledge, buddy.

BigK

Nah, you get dudes who swear up and down that freestyling was all originally off the dome

Have you seen the Freestyle documentary? That's pretty much 2 hours of guys saying that originally freestyle was off the dome, so I guess they're all wrong

dearpockets

Now there is some truth to Big Daddy Kane's statement, and during that time it was true to a certain point. The freestyle he is referring to is a freestyle record. A record in that day was a single, so it wouldn't be uncommon to hear a Big Daddy Kane or a Biz Markie say "this is a freestyle record."
You would have to think that in some sense of the word freestyle would have to be made up on the spot or "off the top." So material doesn't make sense written, especially if you don't have that kind of time on your hands.....think of it this way, a band....lets say a rock band, gets together three to four times a week for a period of three hours per meeting. This band plays a song or a riff and it changes from it's original form to suit the band or any particular instrument, at which point you start to improvise or freestyle. In some cases, and I am speaking through experience, sometimes an artist has nothing until the drummer and bassist start playing a part and allows room for the guitarist to jump in.....making for a totally fresh improvised/freestyle part to emerge.
Surely Big Daddy Kane isn't the end all be all to this point....I have been in the studio with many MCs who have indeed freestyled their part and gone back over and edited the part with written material, but this isn't about them it's about Big Daddy Kane, he may not freestyle, but that isn't true...I have heard him and seen him do so a few different times.
I'm not entirely sure why we would want to discredit a freestyle, but for some reason we do......You can tell a freestyle verses a written....from artist to artist. That's why they are artist they have an ability to work within their own range. Some artist don't freestyle and never will.....that's not their thing.....but to be a battle MC you have to freestyle, unless of course you join some league and are allowed a few weeks to study and write about your opponent.
What do you do when all of your written raps have been used and you have nothing else..........?


2:21mins in.

mannybolone

BigK said:

Nah, you get dudes who swear up and down that freestyling was all originally off the dome

Have you seen the Freestyle documentary? That's pretty much 2 hours of guys saying that originally freestyle was off the dome, so I guess they're all wrong

Much as I respect Kane, I don't see how he gets to be arbitrator of all things rap-related. Perhaps, for *him*, freestyle = "free of style" (which makes no intuitive sense, btw) but that would seem to be a real minority opinion as to the definition of the term.

But more importantly: why does it matter here? Even if freestyle evolved as a term...so what?

HarveyCanal

BigK said:

Nah, you get dudes who swear up and down that freestyling was all originally off the dome

Have you seen the Freestyle documentary? That's pretty much 2 hours of guys saying that originally freestyle was off the dome, so I guess they're all wrong

Riddlore of the Good Life Cafe fame was just making this point to me and a few others about a week ago...saying that in LA, back in the 80's they took the term freetsyle to mean off-the-dome, but later realized that they were MISTAKEN in their assumption in that their NYC heroes who originated the practice were off the dome with their freestyles.

mannybolone

HarveyCanal said:

BigK said:

Nah, you get dudes who swear up and down that freestyling was all originally off the dome

Have you seen the Freestyle documentary? That's pretty much 2 hours of guys saying that originally freestyle was off the dome, so I guess they're all wrong

Riddlore of the Good Life Cafe fame was just making this point to me and a few others about a week ago...saying that in LA, back in the 80's they took the term freetsyle to mean off-the-dome, but later realized that they were MISTAKEN in their assumption in that their NYC heroes who originated the practice were off the dome with their freestyles.

In which case, I think what you have is an interesting case of how terminology and nomenclature gets molded as it "moves" from region to region. What I like here is the idea that, in essence, there was a misunderstanding around a term but that misunderstanding went onto become the norm.

BigK

So we have some people who are like, everyone knows this buddy, and we have some people who say Kane is wrong and freestyles are always meant to be off the dome?

I've been told that in Kool Moe Dee's book he says the same thing as Kane, that freestyles were always written down as well... Kane and Moe Dee are good enough for me, as I haven't heard anyone else who was around back then suggest that they were originally off the dome

batmon

Everybody wrote down their rhymes/routines when I was younger.
But the better MC's could rock off the head w/out reciting their written shit if pressed to.

HarveyCanal

mannybolone said:

HarveyCanal said:

BigK said:

Nah, you get dudes who swear up and down that freestyling was all originally off the dome

Have you seen the Freestyle documentary? That's pretty much 2 hours of guys saying that originally freestyle was off the dome, so I guess they're all wrong

Riddlore of the Good Life Cafe fame was just making this point to me and a few others about a week ago...saying that in LA, back in the 80's they took the term freetsyle to mean off-the-dome, but later realized that they were MISTAKEN in their assumption in that their NYC heroes who originated the practice were off the dome with their freestyles.

In which case, I think what you have is an interesting case of how terminology and nomenclature gets molded as it "moves" from region to region. What I like here is the idea that, in essence, there was a misunderstanding around a term but that misunderstanding went onto become the norm.

Yep, that's true...but even that "norm" became over-romanticized for at the Good Life, the epicenter of this norm, it was pretty much split 50-50 between off-the-dome freestles and writtens. For instance, Rifleman always came with writtens back then that many went on to assume were off-the-dome. Point being, there are no set rules like so many onlookers want there to be.

That's why Hiero really looked dumb in that Hobo battle whining about how Saafir's rhymes were pre-written while there's were off-the-dome. At the time, they failed to realize that the bottom line was that Saafir's rhymes simply sounded better than theirs. They thought they could cite some hard and fast rule, that really didn't even exist, and fell flat on their faces because of it.

BigK

HarveyCanal said:

they failed to realize that the bottom line was that Saafir's rhymes simply sounded better than theirs.

Word, I think off the dome is a cool skill, but it's almost like the best someone can hope to accomplish with an off the dome freestyle is to sound like the rhyme was written... which ironically results in everyone saying that it couldn't have been off the dome because it's too complex

HarveyCanal

BigK said:

HarveyCanal said:

they failed to realize that the bottom line was that Saafir's rhymes simply sounded better than theirs.

Word, I think off the dome is a cool skill, but it's almost like the best someone can hope to accomplish with an off the dome freestyle is to sound like the rhyme was written... which ironically results in everyone saying that it couldn't have been off the dome because it's too complex

Yet PEACE's off-the-dome's are better than 90% of other rapper's writtens.

Supernatural's though...not so much.

BigK

HarveyCanal said:

BigK said:

HarveyCanal said:

they failed to realize that the bottom line was that Saafir's rhymes simply sounded better than theirs.

Word, I think off the dome is a cool skill, but it's almost like the best someone can hope to accomplish with an off the dome freestyle is to sound like the rhyme was written... which ironically results in everyone saying that it couldn't have been off the dome because it's too complex

Yet PEACE's off-the-dome's are better than 90% of other rapper's writtens.

Supernatural's though...not so much.

Yeah, I think Myka 9's are as well... also I think Snoop did his best tracks off the top (Tha Shiznit), back when he was actually putting some effort in

Supernat is impressive, just I haven't heard anything that sounds good from him

mannybolone

Supernat was a one-trick pony with a very impressive trick for its time. But once you heard him on his third freestyle, you realize that it'd be the same flow, the same "set-up rhymes" and the same degree of pay-off with his punchlines. At the height of the Wake-Up Show, he was incredibly entertaining but it wasn't a skill destined to carry him much further.

plogo

when chuck d gave a talk at my school he said a bunch of rappers from ohio were at one of the early new music seminars doing some complex off the dome type freestyling and that was the first exposure a lot of the new york rappers had to that type of rapping. the idea always kinda intrigued me, but ive haven't come across any other substantiating evidence

ketan

BigK said:

HarveyCanal said:

they failed to realize that the bottom line was that Saafir's rhymes simply sounded better than theirs.

Word, I think off the dome is a cool skill, but it's almost like the best someone can hope to accomplish with an off the dome freestyle is to sound like the rhyme was written

i mostly agree, but i also disagree...a nice line that's freestyled come with that added element of danger since it was unwritten.

what ever he's doing here, a.g. drops a few ill little quotables here...and if they're unwritten, it's even more impressive to me.

AG Freestyle on Toca Tuesdays from Toca Tuesdays on Vimeo.

BigK

plogo said:

when chuck d gave a talk at my school he said a bunch of rappers from ohio were at one of the early new music seminars doing some complex off the dome type freestyling and that was the first exposure a lot of the new york rappers had to that type of rapping. the idea always kinda intrigued me, but ive haven't come across any other substantiating evidence

Word, that Big Daddy Kane video I posted is the first time I've heard it on record, in an interview really

willie_fugal

what about Drake being asked to rhyme off the dome, and having to resort to pre-written rhymes on his Blackberry (his thumbs were built for it) that he has trouble reciting?

phongone

Whats up with AG's hair, he looks like a cocker spaniel.

phongone

Whats up with AG's hair, he looks like a cocker spaniel.

BigK

willie_fugal said:

what about Drake being asked to rhyme off the dome, and having to resort to pre-written rhymes on his Blackberry (his thumbs were built for it) that he has trouble reciting?

That's original NY freestyle style!

Apart from the being mad wack part, that's not really cool

ketan

phongone said:

Whats up with AG's hair, he looks like a cocker spaniel.

Now that you said that, I'm picturing him with cartoon Snoopy ears.

rootlesscosmo

HarveyCanal said:

That's why Hiero really looked dumb in that Hobo battle whining about how Saafir's rhymes were pre-written while there's were off-the-dome. At the time, they failed to realize that the bottom line was that Saafir's rhymes simply sounded better than theirs. They thought they could cite some hard and fast rule, that really didn't even exist, and fell flat on their faces because of it.

great. so Hiero's off-the-dome freestyles were not as good as Saafir's written freestyless. apples and oranges. no one "won" this battle; they were conducting two separate battles.

hogginthefogg

rootlesscosmo said:

HarveyCanal said:

That's why Hiero really looked dumb in that Hobo battle whining about how Saafir's rhymes were pre-written while there's were off-the-dome. At the time, they failed to realize that the bottom line was that Saafir's rhymes simply sounded better than theirs. They thought they could cite some hard and fast rule, that really didn't even exist, and fell flat on their faces because of it.

great. so Hiero's off-the-dome freestyles were not as good as Saafir's written freestyless. apples and oranges. no one "won" this battle; they were conducting two separate battles.

You sound white like you play Pictionary with Buffy and Brad.

rootlesscosmo

that's rad lets go surfing.

Breez

I think a lot of people refer to stray verses of verses that were written but never placed in a song as a "freestyle". It's a verse that can be said on the spot and are mostly just the emcee saying how hard they are and what they'll do to you, a battle rap. But, a lot of purists, myself included, say a freestyle is not written and is off the dome and will talk, usually, about that emcee's immediate surroundings. But there is a thin line between this type of freestyle and some idiot that can't rhyme saying a bunch of jibber and sounding like a complete fool. Hence "My name is Bob and I'm here to say, I rap like this most ev'ry day...".

DJ_Enki

rootlesscosmo said:

that's rad lets go surfing.

You pencil-necked, piss-colored Gumby, you can't fuck with me!

("Piss-colored Gumby" is one of the best disses of all time.)

Jonny_Paycheck

There is no alternate interpretation to the Hobo Heiro battle. Heiro got served.

rootlesscosmo

well yeah.

but harvey's point was that Hiero was actually freestyling while Saafir was kicking writtens. I think this is sort of generally acknowledged. and that's fine as far as it goes: Saafir was interested in serving Hiero; the Hieros were interested in adhering to some hip-hop rules or something. advantage Hobos.

but leaving aside the lame-ness of hiero's protests, what is really proven in a battle where the two sides are playing by two totally different sets of rules?

Jonny_Paycheck

They weren't playing by two sets of rules. In a battle there is only one rule - serve your opponent. Make them look stupid, hurt their career, hurt their feelings. That's as old as rap itself.