just an observation - does anybody else find it odd that, on a message board where generally the focus is on "black music", the vast majority of the records you guys nominate in this thread are made by white people?
is there a (percieved) shorter life span of black music?
just an observation - does anybody else find it odd that, on a message board where generally the focus is on "black music", the vast majority of the records you guys nominate in this thread are made by white people?
is there a (percieved) shorter life span of black music?
Well, if you want the Al Green/Curtis Mayfield angle, that's a given. Also, I think that since rap is a newer genre than, say, gospel or soul or funk or (good lord) jazz, then most folks are only recently saying things like "the Biz is timeless."
Really: I'm sure that if you have a little patience (because this will be a long thread), cats will give out the Greens and Mayfields and Mileses and Coltranes; the constants you seem to be tapping on your computer desk to read.
You're telling me Nick Drake or The Band (yes, a person and group comprised entirely of WHITE MEN) isn't timeless to some folks? It's only one possible answer to the question.
just an observation - does anybody else find it odd that, on a message board where generally the focus is on "black music", the vast majority of the records you guys nominate in this thread are made by white people?
is there a (percieved) shorter life span of black music?
great question. my answer to that would be that American Black Music for the most part was made to reflect the time--it wasn't attempting to be timeless or isolated from what was going on at the time. The music was a medium using the time as a means to communicate to the world. This does not make it irrelevant or less impactful to us 20-30-40 years later, but its intent was for the here and now.
well, after getting into funkadelic as late as i have, i have to say that their proper albums are a timeless sound if i ever heard one...still can't believe this stuff is from the 70s sometimes.
as usual heads around here are way to quick to jump to the defense. if you really think my post was about me biting my nails to see a jpeg of a love supreme you got the wrong idea.
dcast kinda hit the nail on the head. and honestly, I think al green (or the biz, for that matter) sounds super dated. and i love that music can take me to a time i've never been too.
i was just a little surprised that to find a list on a "crate digging, dj and hip hop culture!" board that reads more like "the wires 100 timeless records". not that there's anything wrong with that.
as usual heads around here are way to quick to jump to the defense. if you really think my post was about me biting my nails to see a jpeg of a love supreme you got the wrong idea.
dcast kinda hit the nail on the head. and honestly, I think al green (or the biz, for that matter) sounds super dated. and i love that music can take me to a time i've never been too.
i was just a little surprised that to find a list on a "crate digging, dj and hip hop culture!" board that reads more like "the wires 100 timeless records". not that there's anything wrong with that.
Your initial question was a very valid one. Your further, direct implication that it is racially suspect for a handful of people to list examples of "white music" as "timeless" to them, is spurious and smacks of deflection.
I tend to think the hip-hop albums I slept on are the ones that still sound fresh today particularly,
Fugees The Score, I liked it but not as much as the debut. Slick Rick, Da Art of Storytelling, I didn't sit down with this record until I had a music professor tell me how good he thought the production/album was. Nas, It was Written, I know I'm not the only who came late on this. It still sounds fresh as ever, and kinda brings me to my next point. Trackmasters Production, When it came out I hated the commercial sound, but in hindsight I wish commercial shit still sounded like what they were doing in 97.
Your initial question was a very valid one. Your further, direct implication that it is racially suspect for a handful of people to list examples of "white music" as "timeless" to them, is spurious and smacks of deflection.
if this is truly what i was trying to imply i probably would've articulated it with words rather than a jokey unabomber icon.
Your initial question was a very valid one. Your further, direct implication that it is racially suspect for a handful of people to list examples of "white music" as "timeless" to them, is spurious and smacks of deflection.
if this is truly what i was trying to imply i probably would've articulated it with words rather than a jokey unabomber icon.
Well, this being past us (and in response to your question), I think that certain forms of music lend themselves to "timelessness" due to the fact that the forms themselves change little. I mean, The Beatles' "Getting Better" could have been put out today, if only because the basic instruments, lyrics, and structure are fairly pure, if not stridently typical (although I'm sure a music engineer like my pal Harry would disagree with me on a technical level, but nevertheless...). Hip-hop has never been three chords and out. Neither has jazz. It used to be easier to date pop songs that use Casios and weird psych panning effects, but things are so squishy nowadays.
What was old is new again, and stuff.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
What was old is new again, and stuff.
Exactly. That's kind of what I was getting at when I posted the Heads and Band albums. I played "The Band" for a 22-y-o work colleague not too long back. She'd never heard it, and was amazed when I told her it was almost 40 years old. She thought "Whispering Pines" sounded like The Flaming Lips. As for Talking Heads, it seems that, every time I turn on a rock station or flip to MTV2 or something, I hear something or other that sounds like them. Usually, it sounds like the first two albums, but it can only be a matter of time before we're overrun with bands that use "Remain In Light" as a template. Also, it's worth remembering that RD wasn't strictly calling for examples of "timeless" music. I mean, I happen to think that "Songs For Swingin' Lovers" is timeless, but I wouldn't say it sounds as fresh as when it came out.
How much of this has to do with the fact that rock bands of today are just recycling shit over and over again though? I can play lots of older rock to my sister, younger folks, etc. and they will get it because it's the template their favorite group based their sound on. Whereas, play some Curtis Mayfield for an MTV2 kid and they will not understand it.
I think soul music is constantly evolving, hip-hop is getting there though... kids come into the shop often and geek over the old school stuff, but the flows get super dated very quickly. It's the beats that last, at least with the 80s stuff. Time will tell if we go back to the big jazz samples and stuff, I think it won't happen.
Time will tell if we go back to the big jazz samples and stuff, I hope[/b] it won't happen.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
How much of this has to do with the fact that rock bands of today are just recycling shit over and over again though? I can play lots of older rock to my sister, younger folks, etc. and they will get it because it's the template their favorite group based their sound on. Whereas, play some Curtis Mayfield for an MTV2 kid and they will not understand it.
I think soul music is constantly evolving, hip-hop is getting there though... kids come into the shop often and geek over the old school stuff, but the flows get super dated very quickly. It's the beats that last, at least with the 80s stuff. Time will tell if we go back to the big jazz samples and stuff, I think it won't happen.
My 2.
I agree with you completely on the recycling thing. I'm puzzled when people defend some new rock bands on the grounds that "it sounds new and original to the audience it's aimed at", as if that in itself grants them a free pass. Curtis is a great example of an artist for whom it was all about the song, irrespective of whether he was talking about the times or about perennial topics like love. That gives his music the same sense of timelessness as someone like Sinatra, whereas if I listen to a group like Maximo Park, I just feel a sense of nostalgia for the acts they're biting.
That said, there's a lot of backwards glances being taken in soul music right now. Much as I like Anthony Hamilton for example, I can hear Bill Withers in quite a bit of his stuff, and you can't deny that a lot of these nu-soul cats are trying to get over simply by putting on tan 3/4-length leather coats and po-boy caps, talking about "back in the day" in their lyrics, and acting like they're channelling the spirit of Donny Hathaway. The cats making modern hip-hop/r&b records end up sounding all the more adventurous in comparison, simply because they're not looking back or, if they are, they're not making it their sole purpose (no pun intended).
liquid liquid - optimo young marble giants - colossal youth krafwerk - radioactivity 1 and 2 esg - come away with esg just ice - back to the old school the slits - cut steve reich - music for 18 musicians manuel gottsching - e2e4 talk talk - spirit of eden public enemy - nation of millions king tubby meets rockers uptown boredoms - soul discharge tom tom club - close to the bone remain in light contortions - buy die kreuzen s/t public image ltd - first issue Metal Box sonic youth - confusion is sex Daydream Nation
i don't think it's a black or white thing.. the question was TIMELESS ... castillo hit the nail on the head though.. the majority of black music is incredibly good at focusing on the community and times in which it came.
It's impossible to listen to Marvin's What's Going on and not think of vietnam, riots, the inner city, the death of the 60's all that.
couple that with the fact that your aslo talkign about music that as a whole is based on trad forms like blues and jazz and produced in a very neutral and natural manner and you end up with records that don't really break out in terms of massive stylistic originality.
I would say cat's like Sly and Shuggie made timeless music for sure.. but it's hard to classify the music as being as fresh as the day it was made because the music is so of it's time and place.
Whereas you have a record like Collosal Youth by Young Marble Giants. Man everytime i put that on im just sucked right into it's tiny little world. Everything about it is just one big ?????? how did they come up with this shit? i mean there are some nominal dub influences and more than a hint of euro cabaret but the combination of the two mixed with the wierdo home organ sounds and primitive drum machines is just so unique.
it doesnt scream out made in the 70's... it says these people made this record using whatever means they had available to them and whatever nominal skills they possesed. the record sounds fresh because its so unique, naive and pure.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
i don't think it's a black or white thing.. the question was TIMELESS ... castillo hit the nail on the head though.. the majority of black music is incredibly good at focusing on the community and times in which it came.
It's impossible to listen to Marvin's What's Going on and not think of vietnam, riots, the inner city, the death of the 60's all that.
couple that with the fact that your aslo talkign about music that as a whole is based on trad forms like blues and jazz and produced in a very neutral and natural manner and you end up with records that don't really break out in terms of massive stylistic originality.
I would say cat's like Sly and Shuggie made timeless music for sure.. but it's hard to classify the music as being as fresh as the day it was made because the music is so of it's time and place.
Whereas you have a record like Collosal Youth by Young Marble Giants. Man everytime i put that on im just sucked right into it's tiny little world. Everything about it is just one big ?????? how did they come up with this shit? i mean there are some nominal dub influences and more than a hint of euro cabaret but the combination of the two mixed with the wierdo home organ sounds and primitive drum machines is just so unique.
it doesnt scream out made in the 70's... it says these people made this record using whatever means they had available to them and whatever nominal skills they possesed. the record sounds fresh because its so unique, naive and pure.
I don't think YMG ever made another album, at least not one as remarkable as "Colossal Youth". There were a couple of singles/EPs, but not much else. A big part of the reason it sounds the way it does, I always thought, was geography. YMG came from a somewhat isolated town in Wales, where there was little by way of a local scene and, they being comparative oddballs, that sense of being slighty out of step and out of the way found its way into their music. I saw the YMG's main man, Stuart Moxham, performing solo at a show to celebrate Rough Trade's 20th (maybe 21st) anniversary a few years ago. The guy was all but pleading poverty from the stage, and is clearly a little salty that all the critical acclaim YMG received (and continue to receive) never turned into anything more tangible.
Comments
=
sex
is there a (percieved) shorter life span of black music?
Big Co-Sign on this one for me, Doc.
Well, if you want the Al Green/Curtis Mayfield angle, that's a given. Also, I think that since rap is a newer genre than, say, gospel or soul or funk or (good lord) jazz, then most folks are only recently saying things like "the Biz is timeless."
Really: I'm sure that if you have a little patience (because this will be a long thread), cats will give out the Greens and Mayfields and Mileses and Coltranes; the constants you seem to be tapping on your computer desk to read.
You're telling me Nick Drake or The Band (yes, a person and group comprised entirely of WHITE MEN) isn't timeless to some folks? It's only one possible answer to the question.
right back atch'a.
great question.
my answer to that would be that American Black Music for the most part was made to reflect the time--it wasn't attempting to be timeless or isolated from what was going on at the time. The music was a medium using the time as a means to communicate to the world. This does not make it irrelevant or less impactful to us 20-30-40 years later, but its intent was for the here and now.
surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet (that is if we're talking "sounds like it could be recorded now" as opposed to "timeless"):
First three albums...
dcast kinda hit the nail on the head. and honestly, I think al green (or the biz, for that matter) sounds super dated. and i love that music can take me to a time i've never been too.
i was just a little surprised that to find a list on a "crate digging, dj and hip hop culture!" board that reads more like "the wires 100 timeless records". not that there's anything wrong with that.
Enough for now.
Your initial question was a very valid one. Your further, direct implication that it is racially suspect for a handful of people to list examples of "white music" as "timeless" to them, is spurious and smacks of deflection.
Is all I'm saying.
Fugees The Score, I liked it but not as much as the debut.
Slick Rick, Da Art of Storytelling, I didn't sit down with this record until I had a music professor tell me how good he thought the production/album was.
Nas, It was Written, I know I'm not the only who came late on this. It still sounds fresh as ever, and kinda brings me to my next point.
Trackmasters Production, When it came out I hated the commercial sound, but in hindsight I wish commercial shit still sounded like what they were doing in 97.
I've never heard this either. Which one is Shadow?
I've never heard this either. Which one is Shadow?
One of them is Shadow? I though that was Raj and Guzzo...
if this is truly what i was trying to imply i probably would've articulated it with words rather than a jokey unabomber icon.
Isn't that the dude from TOOL?
Sorry, my mistake.
Well, this being past us (and in response to your question), I think that certain forms of music lend themselves to "timelessness" due to the fact that the forms themselves change little. I mean, The Beatles' "Getting Better" could have been put out today, if only because the basic instruments, lyrics, and structure are fairly pure, if not stridently typical (although I'm sure a music engineer like my pal Harry would disagree with me on a technical level, but nevertheless...). Hip-hop has never been three chords and out. Neither has jazz. It used to be easier to date pop songs that use Casios and weird psych panning effects, but things are so squishy nowadays.
What was old is new again, and stuff.
Exactly. That's kind of what I was getting at when I posted the Heads and Band albums. I played "The Band" for a 22-y-o work colleague not too long back. She'd never heard it, and was amazed when I told her it was almost 40 years old. She thought "Whispering Pines" sounded like The Flaming Lips. As for Talking Heads, it seems that, every time I turn on a rock station or flip to MTV2 or something, I hear something or other that sounds like them. Usually, it sounds like the first two albums, but it can only be a matter of time before we're overrun with bands that use "Remain In Light" as a template. Also, it's worth remembering that RD wasn't strictly calling for examples of "timeless" music. I mean, I happen to think that "Songs For Swingin' Lovers" is timeless, but I wouldn't say it sounds as fresh as when it came out.
I think soul music is constantly evolving, hip-hop is getting there though... kids come into the shop often and geek over the old school stuff, but the flows get super dated very quickly. It's the beats that last, at least with the 80s stuff. Time will tell if we go back to the big jazz samples and stuff, I think it won't happen.
My 2.
I agree with you completely on the recycling thing. I'm puzzled when people defend some new rock bands on the grounds that "it sounds new and original to the audience it's aimed at", as if that in itself grants them a free pass. Curtis is a great example of an artist for whom it was all about the song, irrespective of whether he was talking about the times or about perennial topics like love. That gives his music the same sense of timelessness as someone like Sinatra, whereas if I listen to a group like Maximo Park, I just feel a sense of nostalgia for the acts they're biting.
That said, there's a lot of backwards glances being taken in soul music right now. Much as I like Anthony Hamilton for example, I can hear Bill Withers in quite a bit of his stuff, and you can't deny that a lot of these nu-soul cats are trying to get over simply by putting on tan 3/4-length leather coats and po-boy caps, talking about "back in the day" in their lyrics, and acting like they're channelling the spirit of Donny Hathaway. The cats making modern hip-hop/r&b records end up sounding all the more adventurous in comparison, simply because they're not looking back or, if they are, they're not making it their sole purpose (no pun intended).
+Buffy Saint Marie - Illuminations
It's impossible to listen to Marvin's What's Going on and not think of vietnam, riots, the inner city, the death of the 60's all that.
couple that with the fact that your aslo talkign about music that as a whole is based on trad forms like blues and jazz and produced in a very neutral and natural manner and you end up with records that don't really break out in terms of massive stylistic originality.
I would say cat's like Sly and Shuggie made timeless music for sure.. but it's hard to classify the music as being as fresh as the day it was made because the music is so of it's time and place.
Whereas you have a record like Collosal Youth by Young Marble Giants. Man everytime i put that on im just sucked right into it's tiny little world. Everything about it is just one big ?????? how did they come up with this shit? i mean there are some nominal dub influences and more than a hint of euro cabaret but the combination of the two mixed with the wierdo home organ sounds and primitive drum machines is just so unique.
it doesnt scream out made in the 70's... it says these people made this record using whatever means they had available to them and whatever nominal skills they possesed. the record sounds fresh because its so unique, naive and pure.
I don't think YMG ever made another album, at least not one as remarkable as "Colossal Youth". There were a couple of singles/EPs, but not much else. A big part of the reason it sounds the way it does, I always thought, was geography. YMG came from a somewhat isolated town in Wales, where there was little by way of a local scene and, they being comparative oddballs, that sense of being slighty out of step and out of the way found its way into their music. I saw the YMG's main man, Stuart Moxham, performing solo at a show to celebrate Rough Trade's 20th (maybe 21st) anniversary a few years ago. The guy was all but pleading poverty from the stage, and is clearly a little salty that all the critical acclaim YMG received (and continue to receive) never turned into anything more tangible.
cosign on the geography element
on that note...