Divorce-Strut
mannybolone
Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
I deleted the previous thread for obvious reasons.Let's try this again.HYPOTHETICALLY, suppose you're getting a divorce but don't want to/can't hire an attorney to handle your business. And hypothetically, let's say you had kids. And hypothetically, let's say your soon to be ex-wife was kind of trife and you kept a journal about this. What would people's advice be? ---------------------------------If I may, one of my relatives is going through this scenario right now and the best advice I can give is *lock down your finances*. Make sure you know who has what, who put in what, who is entitled to what. If you need to hire a forensic accountant, do that shit.
Comments
It tends to be hard to act like mature adults when emotions are involved.
Tough that kids are involved tho... The stress put on children from divorce is never easy on them.
Other advice. Don't try and argue or fight or complain. It can just be used against you when the time comes. Let a lawyer do that for you.
i would think the ideal thing would be to negotiate an agreement, have it checked by lawyers and then filed in the court and just move on with life like DOR just said.
but if the two parties can't stand each other, can't work out or stick with an agreement for how to deal with the finances and the custody and parenting of the child, things can get contentious, complex and drawn-out. such scenarios very often require a great deal of expertise, skill and experience to navigate. because these matters are so personal and fraught it's often impossible for a person going through one of these situations to be an objective or competent advocate on his or her own behalf (even for lawyers who are practising in this area).
in most common law countries the presumption in family law is usually of an equal split of all jointly held "family assets" (including money in a bank account that has been used for family expenses like paying bills etc...).if there is a family home, that can get tricky. there will have to be an accounting. in the meantime, at the very least one should keep his or her post-separation moneys in a separate account.
when it comes to kids and custody arrangements the cardinal rule in all family law is that the kids' needs come first. they are supposed to experience as little hardship and disruption as possible. in bitter custody battles, one often has to produce expert psychological evidence and have a keen ability to conduct a proper cross-examination.
keeping a journal of events that transpire is always advisable but it may or may not be admissible in court.
from my understanding in many major american (and canadian and british) cities there are pro bono legal clinics that dole out free advice. if one is a student at university with a law faculty there may be a pro bono clinic on campus. they won;t fight on your behalf but will give you an idea about the process, relevant legislation, give one a sense of the possibility of getting legal aid, etc...sometimes, these are simply good places to vent about these problems because everything that is said is typically held in confidence.
also, there is a wealth of information available online (it's trite but simply try typing the words divorce, custody and the name of the state into google) that one can use to educate oneself. also, law libraries that are open to the public. law librarians are some of the the smartest and most helpful people one can imagine.
finally, if one is facing a potential custody battle, it is probably advisable for one to be on his or her best behaviour and totally inconspicuous in every single way, especially in public places (whether they be real or cyber).....
Cosign.
It's worth doing a consult at the very least.
There is a reason people stay paid doing this full time. The system is insane.
and always remember:
no matter what her lawyer says, no matter how official, reasonable, fair/unfair it sounds ALWAYS have your lawyer check it: her lawyer works for her: his job is to provide a satisfactory outcome to HIS client.
And try mediation: lawyer fees can add up fast: after all in a drawn out custody case the only real winners are the ones making money: the lawyers.
This does not mean you should circumvent your lawyers, they are essential to coming to a fair settlemnt, but try to hash out the first few rounds in mediation first: its better for you and will clarify your case for your lawyer.
stay focused on the kids. its not a competition.
THIS.
Liquidate all assets.
I would do this strategically, starting with things that can be sold without her noticing. I would plan ahead very methodically so everything could be done very quickly. All this time, I would put on the show of my lifetime and act like I would do anything to save the relationship even if that would mean to humiliate myself in front of her to absurd degrees. Do everything possible to make her feel safe, trusting and completely unsuspecting. Clean out all bank accounts. Move everything onto offshore accounts. Replace personal belongings like records, art etc with dummies that can be left behind.
Then one day you surprise her with a 2 week dream vacation to the caribbeans.
When she comes back, absolutely everything would be gone without a trace.
I would start a new life somwhere where they don't extradite to the US.
If I ever learned one thing from my parents' sad and pathetic lifes then that would be that I'd much rather die than ever spending one dime on a divorce lawyer.
If you like kids, take them with you, if not, send them along on the 2 week dream vacation.
As I said, this is if I correctly understand the meaning of her being "kind of trife"...
get a lawyer (by any means necessary) and she apparently is not getting one well then you will have a bigger chance of a fair settlement
who knows maybe custody is not that far fetched
Can you practice law in the States without malpractice insurance? That's insane! In Canada, if you're licensed to practice you're insured. Never deal with an uninsured lawyer--that's asking for a world of unhappiness.
In Canada, there are different types of family law lawyers. Some very reasonably advocate collaborative approaches, which save money and pain, and some are hard fighting bulldogs, because that's what their clients think they want. When you hire a lawyer, make sure the lawyer understands your priorities.
If you're a good and lucky family lawyer, there's huge money to make, but what miserable business it is always dealing with broken relationships and petty squabbles. No thank you.
I also think if things haven't gone nuclear yet, meditation is a good place to start. From the original thread, it didn't seem like things had gotten super-duper-ugly yet and if you can avoid the cost of escalation and it seems like a reasonable way to go, then consider it.
The point is that it's also not a bad idea to keep the attorney option in the back pocket and to make sure you keep track of all assets past and present. If you're really paranoid, you could try to agree to shut down any joint accounts except those related to children's expenses.
No offense to Frank - because I like how gully his advice is - but if the opposing partner catches wind that assets are being liquidated? It'd be an obvious sign that you were acting in bad faith and if she had any sense, she'd lawyer up very quickly, then forcing you too as well, and then voila, super-ugly time.
My parents had a fairly large business with around 80 employees. Two houses, a warehouse, nice cars etc. They had a pretty ugly divorce that was also very complicated since they had built up their business together from scratch and with the financial support of their parents. It was a freaking nightmare beyond anything you could imagine and they were in court for literally years. I don't even want to think about what ridiculous amounts of money that must have cost.
In the end, everything was gone. The business was bankrupt, the houses were sold, everybody hated each others guts. My mother now lives in a small apartment, living from less money a month than I make in a week just by selling a few records. My father also lives in a rental apartment that a few years ago got a bit less crowded since his son from his new wife got put in jail for a string of armed bank robberies. He was a pretty smart man with a degree in engineering, a catalogue of industrial patents, the works and his life has turned into shit.
So you better believe that my advice was meant to be 100% serious.
I would never allow myself to end up in a situation where a judge gets to decide what happens with the fruit of my lifelong labor or some lawyers get fat on money that I earned. No way in hell.
The specifics of course would have to be adjusted according to the individual situation and I wouldn't take anything that's not mine. As far as the kids go, you can still provide for them according to your own choosing from wherever you go to.
Don't be afraid of a divorce to "get ugly".
Be aware that it will without a doubt be ugly, most probably the ugliest thing you will ever have to go through and the best way to get out of ugly situations is to act rapidly, surprisingly and without any wrong fear of being too drastic. And F*ck a law if your life's on the line.
And also: I don't see how a divorce can get ugly and lawyers don't come into that.
If you're saying "the soon to be ex-wife was kind of trife"... I can't see how a divorce could be anything else but ugly. I also think it's a pretty silly move to put your cards on the table when dealing with a person that's betraying you. and man, "keeping a journal" sounds a bit weird.
i'm sorry that you had such an upsetting and negative experience. there are certainly bad eggs out there.
nevertheless; a number of people on this board are either attorneys or on their way, and do you really think we are all such horrible people at heart? that we are only motivated by greed and that we derive some sort of macabre pleasure from the suffering of our clients? often it is the parties themselves who are being difficult, vindictive, obstructionist and causing the process to drag on and on.
alternative dispute resolution can be great and cheap but other divorces (esp. with children and extensive assets) can be extremely complex and stressful but what is the alternative? these things have to be hashed out and sometimes that takes time and money and expert counsel.it is trite but when you intertwine your life with that of another, unwinding it sometimes takes time even though there is a natural and understanding desire to have it taken care of neatly and quickly.
many lawyers take their professional obligations to advance the best interests of their clients very seriously. further, many lawyers do work for free or at greatly reduced rates because there is a belief that someone shouldn't be denied a defence or a day in court because he or she is are poor.
the idea that lawyers are vampires running a racket at the expense of the public is a hoary, silly and offensive concept to those of us who believe in rule of law and the protection of rights.
To grab what's yours and get the F*ck out of there.
cool, you're entitled to your opinion. trust between client-attorney is essential for so many reasons. if you don;t know the person, you can always do your own little investigation and find out about the person;s reputation, etc...
when you say you don;t trust the work we do i am a bit unclear although i sense you are trying to say something like "all lawyers do is talk and push paper, they don;t produce anything concrete" which is a common misconception.
and many people do this, we tend to call them deadbeats.
i guess you have to do what is right for you in the end but to me the most important thing we have in civil society is the rule of law, even though it does not always lead to just results.
What do you mean by trife? The behavior of a spouse generally means little to nothing in terms of distribution of the marital estate. It has a lot to do with custody though for obvious reasons.
If your friend doesn't have enough money to hire an attorney, there are attorneys who handle divorce/custody/support/alimony matters pro bono. Tell him to call his state bar association for information. I do pro bono work on custody matters because there is always going to be at least one innocent party; the child.
As to Frank's comments about lawyers, let me just say this: In terms of divorce work, this isn't my main area of concentration, but it can be very rewarding. The matters are obviously personal and the client is always extremely involved at every step of the way. If you do a good job, you feel like his/her hero, especially where kids are involved.
That doesn't make it less weird...
I'm not saying whoever's keeping the journal is weird for doing so but the task itself seems extremely weird.
This would be one more reason for me to seek a solution by thinking outside of the box that is the legal system.
good nachas on you.
yeah, might seem weird, but without getting more into detail, its gonna have to stay weird to you. Its not really a journal... its just daily scrawlings of events.
I believe you.
It's just that on both separate (and non-divorce related) occasions I had to hire a lawyer I was represented so badly that I would have had the same result without a lawyer. In one case I had even openly been lied to, not only about my legal rights but also was told "sorry I couldn't do anything for you, I feel so badly I won't charge you" and later received a hefty bill regardless... These were relatively minor incidents and happened a long time ago but I'd be damned if I ever trust a lawyer again in this lifetime and I'd be willing to go to the most absurd seeming extreme to avoid any situation where I would have to hire one again.
does anyone ever really want to hire a lawyer?
O*****r, please stop playing games and a poast a link to your trifeness blog already
^ This.
My understanding from anecdotal evidence is that unless there is documented evidence of attempted murder (or some other heinous crime) on the part of the child's mother, the court will generally grant her whatever custody and financial arrangements she desires. Who is sympathetic to a single father? There is probably a fancy Latin legal term for "Mother knows best" that explains this precedent.
..reminded me of an interesting statistic, although most likely outdated considering the source - a video from the 80s, I heard in my Engineering class last week: In the U.S., for every person with a BS degree or higher in engineering, there are 30 lawyers. In Japan, it is (was?) the opposite. I assume this was supposed to be taken as "there are not enough engineers" and not "there are too many lawyers", but there you have it.