I believe shoot first, ask questions later is not making anyone or anything more safe. The argument of what if it was you? is faulty. It is not me -it's them, they are supposed to be trained for these situations. This is not a perfect concept, I realize that - these are humans and mistakes are made. We all understand this. But if there is an ideology in place, on the police's side, that encourages such mistakes, then we are all screwed. Shooting dark-skinned men who do not react well to be shouted at or chased by authorities is a sign that things are getting worse, not better, not safer, not saner.
The shoot-to-kill tactic of aimin' for the head versus any other body part is Israeli police policy - who advised the Metropolitan London police force to do the same concernin' suicide bombers...
I wasn't lookin' to get contentious w/ you JP - just that the reasonin' that's applied for the good of the collective whole may eventually impose conduct that's of a rather nasty disposition (given that it's dispensed by humans, who are neither perfect nor completely w/o redemption), moreso than just checkin' documents/etc. - and that everyone who signs on is willin' to suffer any ramifications b/c of that...
Cops have pulled me over to check ID and such. I am totally compliant. WTF should I be rebelling against?
I have a friend who's originally from Toronto now livin' in Brooklyn - when he was livin' in Toronto, he was regularly stopped by the police for issues such as not havin' proper lightin' on his bicycle - black w/ dreads - doesn't drink nor smoke nor do drugs - but pulled over time and time again (in Toronto) - he's resigned to it b/c of his appearance and skin tone - but it doesn't make it right either... Policy is one thing, but the dissemination to foot soldiers is problematic in that it's then contingent on human behavior, regardless of whether they're in a station of office (i.e. police)... Cops aren't necessarily gleanin' recruits from the top 10 % of all Mensa candidates out there...
I still have a hard time understanding why anyone would run from police unless they had something really shifty going on. If this guy was just "scared" then he must have been really stupid. I mean, say I'm in Brazil, a cop stops me... I certainly do not take off. Easiest way to get chopped down. And I've seen cops round up illegal Mexican workers... the runners get taken down one way or the other and others just submit. Whether or not they should be allowed to work here is another argument entirely but it doesn't justify just taking off on a bunch of cops. I've been stopped in other countries and the last thing on my mind was running. I just can't understand that portion of this whole tragic thing.
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to provide an alternate perspective... obviously the Israeli training was in use because suicide bombers did explode a few trains and a bus; and of course I feel terribly about how it went down. But this is not just about shooting random brown people... this is about a circumstance, a series of actions, and a terrible result.
I kind of hate how a lot of these folks are making this so cut-and-dried...
Cops have pulled me over to check ID and such. I am totally compliant. WTF should I be rebelling against?
I have a friend who's originally from Toronto now livin' in Brooklyn - when he was livin' in Toronto, he was regularly stopped by the police for issues such as not havin' proper lightin' on his bicycle - black w/ dreads - doesn't drink nor smoke nor do drugs - but pulled over time and time again (in Toronto) - he's resigned to it b/c of his appearance and skin tone - but it doesn't make it right either... Policy is one thing, but the dissemination to foot soldiers is problematic in that it's then contingent on human behavior, regardless of whether they're in a station of office (i.e. police)... Cops aren't necessarily gleanin' recruits from the top 10 % of all Mensa candidates out there...
Yes, but that's not at all the situation we're discussing.
As I said before, to try and compare the two doesn't do justice to either.
i think we should consider that this man ran for the same reasons the cops shot him in the head seven times - panic and decisions based on survival. if this man was thinking of himself, chances are he never even considered the ramifications of what he was doing in light of the bombings.
I don't think anyone's really disagreeing that a shoot to kill policy is neccessary in a terrorist situation or that the police provide an important role. It's just that this particular incident is so awful it's unacceptable. I question the intelligence the police were working with. This extreme use of force should not be so easily unleashed. Imagine if it had been your brother or son.
I still have a hard time understanding why anyone would run from police unless they had something really shifty going on. If this guy was just "scared" then he must have been really stupid. I mean, say I'm in Brazil, a cop stops me... I certainly do not take off. Easiest way to get chopped down. And I've seen cops round up illegal Mexican workers... the runners get taken down one way or the other and others just submit. Whether or not they should be allowed to work here is another argument entirely but it doesn't justify just taking off on a bunch of cops. I've been stopped in other countries and the last thing on my mind was running. I just can't understand that portion of this whole tragic thing.
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to provide an alternate perspective... obviously the Israeli training was in use because suicide bombers did explode a few trains and a bus; and of course I feel terribly about how it went down. But this is not just about shooting random brown people... this is about a circumstance, a series of actions, and a terrible result.
I kind of hate how a lot of these folks are making this so cut-and-dried...
JP - duly noted, but therein lies part of the issue though - where you don't understand given your perspective, the victim may have been scared witless to be picked up by immigration authorities - he's overstayed his student visa, he's workin' illegally - does he know the full gamut of what's in store for him...
Your level-headed approach isn't goin' to be ubiquitously applicable - the halcyonically-empty fallacy that people subscribe to a lot of the time is that all men (and women are created equal) - uh, wrong - the range of those who are cerebrally better and/or physically stronger is pretty vast and wide - the way you see the road when you drive isn't gonna be the same for every other person... And the decision to stop and be questioned for you may (and in this instance wasn't) not be the call a lot of other folks make...
Hope to make it to your store sometime soon before all the gems get sold
Never sell off all the gems... they keep coming in.
I understand completely that the guy might be scared of getting deported. What I don't understand is this: in what country is it allowed to run from police? Surely not Brazil. I mean, I agree with MissBassie, surely he didn't have a level head on but seriously, I mean you have to have been born under a rock....
I'll take deportation over 7 to the head any day...
The man was held down by several police and then shot in the head 5 times. The police claim that they gave the man a warning but he didn't stop before they tackled him.
Thats not true, he was'nt held down.
My bad. I read an initial report that said the cops had tackled him and shot him. From reports that I now read it appears that the man slipped or was tripped and fell. A cop caught up to him and shot him in the head while he was down.
From the NY Times:
A witness who had been sitting on a Northern Line subway train at Stockwell station said the man had been pursued by plainclothes police officers who fired five shots at close range.
"I was sitting on the train,' Mark Whitby said. "I heard a lot of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down.' I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun. He half tripped. They pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him."
As the man stumbled onto the train, Mr. Whitby told the BBC, "I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox."
"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him," he said. The police officers "couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand."
"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him," Mr Whitby said. Some British reports said the man's heavy clothing may have persuaded police officers that he was carrying a suicide bomb.>>
my comparison b/t Diallo and Menezes revolves the series of events that had to click into place for both events to happen. In Diallo's case, plainsclothes police thought he was acting suspicious, they approached him, he fled, they chased. I've heard some stories that what also precipitated the shooting - besides the wallet - was the fact that one of the officers tripped backwards and his colleagues thought he had been shot. All in all, a tragedy of errors. Same with Menezes, starting with him coming out of the wrong building, being of the wrong color, wearing, apparently, the wrong jacket (though this seems more and more like a red herring) and certainly, coming down to him running from the cops and unfortunately, onto a subway train. I'm just saying - the police have a higher standard to hold up to.
And JP, no offense but maybe the reason why you don't fear cops is because you have nothing to fear from them (cross country drives while hitting the herb aside). I know plenty of folks, not just in the US but across the world, for whom authority figures like the police are extensions of state corruption and repression.
Never sell off all the gems... they keep coming in.
I understand completely that the guy might be scared of getting deported. What I don't understand is this: in what country is it allowed to run from police? Surely not Brazil. I mean, I agree with MissBassie, surely he didn't have a level head on but seriously, I mean you have to have been born under a rock....
I'll take deportation over 7 to the head any day...
Uh yeah. But I'm sure if Menezes knew what his other option was, he would have stopped on a dime. Of course now, people are just going to be even MORE nervous around the police.
And JP, no offense but maybe the reason why you don't fear cops is because you have nothing to fear from them (cross country drives while hitting the herb aside). I know plenty of folks, not just in the US but across the world, for whom authority figures like the police are extensions of state corruption and repression. I can't say that's what Menezes was feeling but fear of police is not remotely the same thing as an admission of guilt.
I have no more or less to fear than you, Oliver - that's not my point... are these people you know who think the police are extensions of state corruption and repression all in college towns like Berkeley? I mean, no offense but I don't get the feeling you're rolling with shooters. Having a theory on how police are an extension of state corruption and repression doesn't give anyone a good reason to run from an arresting officer.
Fear of the police is something that lots of people (including myself, at times) share... that shouldn't lead you to run off in the face of officers with drawn guns, unless you're really can't get caught. I do know a few guys who can't get another felony or carry serious stuff on them and obviously they would try to get away. You're right, that's not me but it also is there decision to run on the wrong side of the law.
And am I wrong or didn't Diallo get shot in or in front of his building's vestibule? I recall the officer falling but I do not recall anything involving a chase.
Actually, can we just take a step back here for a second and just figure out what the debate is?
To me, I think most people are upset over this because a innocent man got killed by police in a situation that could and should have otherwise been avoided. Most of the people who are shocked by this incident are not saying that Scotland Yard needs to be overhauled or that someone should bomb Parliament. The furthest I've seen anything said is that the "shoot to kill" policy needs to rethinked - and I can't even see why that's all that controversial under the circumstances. Even if they decide to keep it, you would certainly hope some intelligent people sat down and asked, "look, some of our boys fucked up bad. Is this policy still a good one under the circumstances?" Just knowing that conversation took place is a step in a constructive direction, no?
The only thread of thought I find disturbing within this discussion is what seems to be an attempt to EXCUSE the actions on the basis that they are understandable. I agree with the latter - I understand how this happened. But that doesn't excuse it.
And JP, no offense but maybe the reason why you don't fear cops is because you have nothing to fear from them (cross country drives while hitting the herb aside). I know plenty of folks, not just in the US but across the world, for whom authority figures like the police are extensions of state corruption and repression. I can't say that's what Menezes was feeling but fear of police is not remotely the same thing as an admission of guilt.
I have no more or less to fear than you, Oliver - that's not my point... are these people you know who think the police are extensions of state corruption and repression all in college towns like Berkeley? I mean, no offense but I don't get the feeling you're rolling with shooters. Having a theory on how police are an extension of state corruption and repression doesn't give anyone a good reason to run from an arresting officer.
Fear of the police is something that lots of people (including myself, at times) share... that shouldn't lead you to run off in the face of officers with drawn guns, unless you're really can't get caught. I do know a few guys who can't get another felony or carry serious stuff on them and obviously they would try to get away. You're right, that's not me but it also is there decision to run on the wrong side of the law.
And am I wrong or didn't Diallo get shot in or in front of his building's vestibule? I recall the officer falling but I do not recall anything involving a chase.
JP,
On the first point, people I know who fear the cops tend to be immigrants for whom a knock on the door in the home country has very different meanings than it does here. I'm just saying, you're thinking about police in a way that presumes things like basic rule of law, civil rights, etc. Or moreover, that the police, fundamentally, are here to help you. I'm merely suggesting that not everyone has the same experience or assumptions and therefore, their difference in behavior from how you might handle the same situation would be understandably different.
As for Diallo - he wasn't chased down the block but I think he was chased up the steps to his door. The tripping thing would be comedic if not for the tragedy of it.
And am I wrong or didn't Diallo get shot in or in front of his building's vestibule? I recall the officer falling but I do not recall anything involving a chase.
Diallo was shot 43 times, no?
I think a better comparison was the story of Ousmane Zongo, the man from Burkina Faso who was shot running from cops during a bootleg DVD raid in Manhattan a few years back...of course, the NYC circumstances are a lot different since there was no perceived threat of a suicide bomb, but the net result was the same.
***** Ousmane Zongo, an immigrant from Burkina Faso, was shot to death by a police officer May 22 in the Manhattan warehouse where he worked on African art. The cops were carrying out a raid on a bootleg video operation allegedly based in the building where he worked. The man???s family arrived in the city at the end of last month and announced a $150 million wrongful death lawsuit. *****
[quoteI have no more or less to fear than you, Oliver - that's not my point... are these people you know who think the police are extensions of state corruption and repression all in college towns like Berkeley? I mean, no offense but I don't get the feeling you're rolling with shooters. Having a theory on how police are an extension of state corruption and repression doesn't give anyone a good reason to run from an arresting officer. I can give you plenty of stories from my kids who all happen to be black and teenagers who live in Oakland about being beaten and harrased by the OPD for no reason.
In one related story, a senior of mine 2 years ago was hanging out with his friends in front of one of their houses in West Oakland on a weekend. A cop car sped up and slammed on its breaks to the curb in front of them. They all ran. The cops caught my student and a couple others, beat them with billy clubs, then asked for thier ids. They ran a check, found nothing and let them go. I asked my kid, why did you run from the police if you weren't doing anything? His response, what would you do if a cop car suddenly runs up on you? Fear will make you do things.
And am I wrong or didn't Diallo get shot in or in front of his building's vestibule? I recall the officer falling but I do not recall anything involving a chase.
Diallo was shot 43 times, no?
I think a better comparison was the story of Ousmane Zongo, the man from Burkina Faso who was shot running from cops during a bootleg DVD raid in Manhattan a few years back...of course, the NYC circumstances are a lot different since there was no perceived threat of a suicide bomb, but the net result was the same.
***** Ousmane Zongo, an immigrant from Burkina Faso, was shot to death by a police officer May 22 in the Manhattan warehouse where he worked on African art. The cops were carrying out a raid on a bootleg video operation allegedly based in the building where he worked. The man???s family arrived in the city at the end of last month and announced a $150 million wrongful death lawsuit. *****
Diallo was shot 19 times. But the cops fired 41 shots.
The only thread of thought I find disturbing within this discussion is what seems to be an attempt to EXCUSE the actions on the basis that they are understandable. I agree with the latter - I understand how this happened. But that doesn't excuse it.
From reading this story, I don't think the onus is on the police.
For me, this is no different than hearing about a guy who decided to cross the street against a red light & got run over. If dude would have obeyed, he'd still be breathing right now.
He took a chance & got whacked.
This doesn't mean that I'm not sorry it happened. It's a crying shame this dude didn't have the good sense to stop and put his arms in the air.
And am I wrong or didn't Diallo get shot in or in front of his building's vestibule? I recall the officer falling but I do not recall anything involving a chase.
Diallo was shot 43 times, no?
I think a better comparison was the story of Ousmane Zongo, the man from Burkina Faso who was shot running from cops during a bootleg DVD raid in Manhattan a few years back...of course, the NYC circumstances are a lot different since there was no perceived threat of a suicide bomb, but the net result was the same.
***** Ousmane Zongo, an immigrant from Burkina Faso, was shot to death by a police officer May 22 in the Manhattan warehouse where he worked on African art. The cops were carrying out a raid on a bootleg video operation allegedly based in the building where he worked. The man???s family arrived in the city at the end of last month and announced a $150 million wrongful death lawsuit. *****
Diallo was shot 19 times. But the cops fired 41 shots.
ah. to be clear--the Diallo situation is certainly relevant, i just thought that maybe we were getting wires crossed over the story/circumstances.
The only thread of thought I find disturbing within this discussion is what seems to be an attempt to EXCUSE the actions on the basis that they are understandable. I agree with the latter - I understand how this happened. But that doesn't excuse it.
From reading this story, I don't think the onus is on the police.
For me, this is no different than hearing about a guy who decided to cross the street against a red light & got run over. If dude would have obeyed, he'd still be breathing right now.
He took a chance & got whacked.
This doesn't mean that I'm not sorry it happened. It's a crying shame this dude didn't have the good sense to stop and put his arms in the air.
h
Uh Haz, sorry but that would only make sense if, in your example, the cops told him to stop and then he ran across the street, and then the cops RAN HIM DOWN in a patrol car.
Just curoius from those who are trying to justify this - would you say the same thing about Diallo? I mean, shouldn't a black man in New York know better than to wave his wallet around? Wasn't he just asking NYPD to pump 41 shots through his frame?
This is exactly what I was talking about. I can not critisize the London police. They are trying to stop suicide bombers. There have been 4 suicide bombings and 4 attempted suicide bombings in London. They have choosen a shoot to kill approach to dealing with sucide bombings. That may or may not be a smart approach, but as a citizen of Portland Or USA I will leave that decision up to Londoners.
In Portland OR USA people are not only stopped for driving Black, they are shot dead. I am far more concerned by my local police deparments undefensible policy than Londons defensible one.
It appears to me that London is taking this shooting far more seriously is and will investigate it more thouroughly than any Portland police shooting ever has been.
The only thread of thought I find disturbing within this discussion is what seems to be an attempt to EXCUSE the actions on the basis that they are understandable. I agree with the latter - I understand how this happened. But that doesn't excuse it.
From reading this story, I don't think the onus is on the police.
For me, this is no different than hearing about a guy who decided to cross the street against a red light & got run over. If dude would have obeyed, he'd still be breathing right now.
He took a chance & got whacked.
This doesn't mean that I'm not sorry it happened. It's a crying shame this dude didn't have the good sense to stop and put his arms in the air.
h
Uh Haz, sorry but that would only make sense if, in your example, the cops told him to stop and then he ran across the street, and then the cops RAN HIM DOWN in a patrol car.
What I meant was that if you take a chance with some things, you stand to stand to get hurt. But I think the difference from my POV & others is that I don't fear police - I don't understand why someone would not stop & listen to a police officer. It just seems crazy to me to run from an armed law official.
Oliver, this thread is getting ridiculous because we are delving into such hypothetical territory but I still say, you can't compare this London situation with Diallo, with migrant workers scared of immigration, with 13 year olds in Oakland or whatever else.
That said, you are practicing some supreme moral relativism - ie, if someone thinks in their country the police knock on the door to torture you, therefore an acceptible response is to jump out the window and run down the block? Just because that's the way the police in, say, Nigeria operate doesn't mean that's what to do here. If people would rather risk death than deportation, then that's the choice they've made and I feel terrible for the situation. But then they have risked it. I mean, I'm not arguing that cops are fucked up on all sorts of occasions to all sorts of people. But when will people realize that the last thing to do is run or fight? How many people have to die. We know what the police do. We know what they are ordered to do, and how they carry out those policies. Does this justify excessive use of force? Of course not. But if you're running, the presumption is you're guilty. Police are authorized to stop a guilty suspect from fleeing using necessary force - ie, shooting someone in the leg or tazing or whatever.
And once again, this is a COMPLETELY different set of circumstances. You can't possibly compare it to cops shooting unarmed people with no probable cause other than a cop slipping, a held wallet, etc. The cops in this circumstance were looking for a person to prevent a massive slaughter. Not some guy who might (possibly) be up to no good on an otherwise-regular day. It doesn't excuse what they did - it seems the cops in the UK are less experienced with firearms and crises like this. But it does, to a certain extent, explain it.
Look man - I respect the fact that you are one of the least IRrational folks around here. And I'm not remotely trying to say that you're hitting the pipe with your argument. And yes, there is some moral relativism in full effect but that's all around this conversation (not just you and me, but everybody).
So fine, let's put aside the Diallo comparison and just talk about what's at stake here.
Are the London police's actions UNDERSTANDABLE given the current climate? Yes. Are they DEFENSIBLE? In my opinion, no.
What bothers me is the thinking that Haz is was putting out: that by running, Menelez was practically wearing a sign on his back that said, "shoot me." I can't abide by that kind of thinking especially in the ABSENCE OF OTHER EVIDENCE that would have supported the conclusion that dude was running in order to bomb a train.
This wasn't an accident in the sense that he ran, tripped, and hit the third rail (though that would be tragic as well). There was a decision made to unload a clip into his skull - it wasn't like the gun "accidentally" went off. I just can't see how running from the cops - in whatever the situation (again, absent any other actual evidence) can equal = license to be killed.
Look man - I respect the fact that you are one of the least IRrational folks around here. And I'm not remotely trying to say that you're hitting the pipe with your argument. And yes, there is some moral relativism in full effect but that's all around this conversation (not just you and me, but everybody).
So fine, let's put aside the Diallo comparison and just talk about what's at stake here.
Are the London police's actions UNDERSTANDABLE given the current climate? Yes. Are they DEFENSIBLE? In my opinion, no.
What bothers me is the thinking that Haz is was putting out: that by running, Menelez was practically wearing a sign on his back that said, "shoot me." I can't abide by that kind of thinking especially in the ABSENCE OF OTHER EVIDENCE that would have supported the conclusion that dude was running in order to bomb a train.
This wasn't an accident in the sense that he ran, tripped, and hit the third rail (though that would be tragic as well). There was a decision made to unload a clip into his skull - it wasn't like the gun "accidentally" went off. I just can't see how running from the cops - in whatever the situation (again, absent any other actual evidence) can equal = license to be killed.
This seems perfectly reasonable to me - running from the cops does not give them the right to shoot you. Even if you are wearing an impractical coat. The London police need to seriously look into their methodology since a similar situation will probably happen again.
I just can't see how running from the cops - in whatever the situation (again, absent any other actual evidence) can equal = license to be killed.
I can't pretend that I know anything about the law. I've always been under the impression, though, that a police officer can shoot you/kill you if you disobey them. That's why I've always tried to comply with the police if there's ever been a problem.
>Just curoius from those who are trying to justify this - would you say the same thing about Diallo? I mean, shouldn't a black man in New York know better than to wave his wallet around? Wasn't he just asking NYPD to pump 41 shots through his frame
Thats a retarded comparison.
Is it? What's the difference? Diallo was a victim of a SERIES of unfortunate decisions, misconceptions and mistakes. Don't forget - the police in that shooting were cleared of all charges, the end belief being that Diallo contributed enough to his own death that the police had no legal liability to have taken greater steps to have prevented his death. I see the same kind of manuevering in action here.
The glibness to which people on this board treat the London shooting is striking. To chalk this up to a "tragedy of war" sounds like typical spin-speak to me, it avoids the issue. And to justify a "shoot to kill" policy by explaining that it's "for the safety of the masses" is the same logic that creates concentration camps and justifies dumb shit like the Patriot Act.
I think Vitamin has the better prespective than you today O-D.
In the USA police routinely shot people because "they feared for their life and had to make a split second decision". Any police officer who claims this is automaticly cleared of the killing. This gives USA police officers a liscence to kill. Happens in Portland at least once a year, despite the fact that the victoms are almost never armed, and Portland police officers are almost never shot at.
In London they are dealing with 8 subway bombings, over 50 people dead, many more hospitolized, plus 4 known sucide bombers on the loose.
To compare it to Diallo is stretch that just does not add up. NYPD were not dealing with 8 police shootings from men cornered in vestibles. The only part of your comparison argument is that both shootings were regreatable.
The officers in London mistakenly thought that they had a sucide bomber on a crowded train, shooting to kill in that situation is not comparable to concentration camps where whole populations are rounded up.
I agree it is comparable to the patriot act. The idea of congress passing laws to improve law inforcements ability to fight terrorists is a good one. The PARTRIOT ACT is a bad piece of legeslation but parts of it make sense, and other things that would make sense were not included.
I am not glibly defending the London shooting. In fact I am not defending it at all. I am just saying your arguments are weak. I think we should remember that none of the officers have been cleared, the goverment has issued an apology.
As for the "but he ran" argument. He made the wrong decision when he ran. The police made the wrong decision when they shot him. That is why we are talking about this. People made the wrong decisions.
Comments
I believe shoot first, ask questions later is not making anyone or anything more safe. The argument of what if it was you? is faulty. It is not me -it's them, they are supposed to be trained for these situations. This is not a perfect concept, I realize that - these are humans and mistakes are made. We all understand this. But if there is an ideology in place, on the police's side, that encourages such mistakes, then we are all screwed. Shooting dark-skinned men who do not react well to be shouted at or chased by authorities is a sign that things are getting worse, not better, not safer, not saner.
I wasn't lookin' to get contentious w/ you JP - just that the reasonin' that's applied for the good of the collective whole may eventually impose conduct that's of a rather nasty disposition (given that it's dispensed by humans, who are neither perfect nor completely w/o redemption), moreso than just checkin' documents/etc. - and that everyone who signs on is willin' to suffer any ramifications b/c of that...
I have a friend who's originally from Toronto now livin' in Brooklyn - when he was livin' in Toronto, he was regularly stopped by the police for issues such as not havin' proper lightin' on his bicycle - black w/ dreads - doesn't drink nor smoke nor do drugs - but pulled over time and time again (in Toronto) - he's resigned to it b/c of his appearance and skin tone - but it doesn't make it right either... Policy is one thing, but the dissemination to foot soldiers is problematic in that it's then contingent on human behavior, regardless of whether they're in a station of office (i.e. police)... Cops aren't necessarily gleanin' recruits from the top 10 % of all Mensa candidates out there...
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to provide an alternate perspective... obviously the Israeli training was in use because suicide bombers did explode a few trains and a bus; and of course I feel terribly about how it went down. But this is not just about shooting random brown people... this is about a circumstance, a series of actions, and a terrible result.
I kind of hate how a lot of these folks are making this so cut-and-dried...
Yes, but that's not at all the situation we're discussing.
As I said before, to try and compare the two doesn't do justice to either.
i think we should consider that this man ran for the same reasons the cops shot him in the head seven times - panic and decisions based on survival. if this man was thinking of himself, chances are he never even considered the ramifications of what he was doing in light of the bombings.
JP - duly noted, but therein lies part of the issue though - where you don't understand given your perspective, the victim may have been scared witless to be picked up by immigration authorities - he's overstayed his student visa, he's workin' illegally - does he know the full gamut of what's in store for him...
Your level-headed approach isn't goin' to be ubiquitously applicable - the halcyonically-empty fallacy that people subscribe to a lot of the time is that all men (and women are created equal) - uh, wrong - the range of those who are cerebrally better and/or physically stronger is pretty vast and wide - the way you see the road when you drive isn't gonna be the same for every other person... And the decision to stop and be questioned for you may (and in this instance wasn't) not be the call a lot of other folks make...
Hope to make it to your store sometime soon before all the gems get sold
I understand completely that the guy might be scared of getting deported. What I don't understand is this: in what country is it allowed to run from police? Surely not Brazil. I mean, I agree with MissBassie, surely he didn't have a level head on but seriously, I mean you have to have been born under a rock....
I'll take deportation over 7 to the head any day...
My bad. I read an initial report that said the cops had tackled him and shot him. From reports that I now read it appears that the man slipped or was tripped and fell. A cop caught up to him and shot him in the head while he was down.
From the NY Times:
A witness who had been sitting on a Northern Line subway train at Stockwell station said the man had been pursued by plainclothes police officers who fired five shots at close range.
"I was sitting on the train,' Mark Whitby said. "I heard a lot of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down.' I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun. He half tripped. They pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him."
As the man stumbled onto the train, Mr. Whitby told the BBC, "I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox."
"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him," he said. The police officers "couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand."
"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him," Mr Whitby said. Some British reports said the man's heavy clothing may have persuaded police officers that he was carrying a suicide bomb.>>
dude where you from? we're on the internet.
And JP, no offense but maybe the reason why you don't fear cops is because you have nothing to fear from them (cross country drives while hitting the herb aside). I know plenty of folks, not just in the US but across the world, for whom authority figures like the police are extensions of state corruption and repression.
Uh yeah. But I'm sure if Menezes knew what his other option was, he would have stopped on a dime. Of course now, people are just going to be even MORE nervous around the police.
I have no more or less to fear than you, Oliver - that's not my point... are these people you know who think the police are extensions of state corruption and repression all in college towns like Berkeley? I mean, no offense but I don't get the feeling you're rolling with shooters. Having a theory on how police are an extension of state corruption and repression doesn't give anyone a good reason to run from an arresting officer.
Fear of the police is something that lots of people (including myself, at times) share... that shouldn't lead you to run off in the face of officers with drawn guns, unless you're really can't get caught. I do know a few guys who can't get another felony or carry serious stuff on them and obviously they would try to get away. You're right, that's not me but it also is there decision to run on the wrong side of the law.
And am I wrong or didn't Diallo get shot in or in front of his building's vestibule? I recall the officer falling but I do not recall anything involving a chase.
To me, I think most people are upset over this because a innocent man got killed by police in a situation that could and should have otherwise been avoided. Most of the people who are shocked by this incident are not saying that Scotland Yard needs to be overhauled or that someone should bomb Parliament. The furthest I've seen anything said is that the "shoot to kill" policy needs to rethinked - and I can't even see why that's all that controversial under the circumstances. Even if they decide to keep it, you would certainly hope some intelligent people sat down and asked, "look, some of our boys fucked up bad. Is this policy still a good one under the circumstances?" Just knowing that conversation took place is a step in a constructive direction, no?
The only thread of thought I find disturbing within this discussion is what seems to be an attempt to EXCUSE the actions on the basis that they are understandable. I agree with the latter - I understand how this happened. But that doesn't excuse it.
JP,
On the first point, people I know who fear the cops tend to be immigrants for whom a knock on the door in the home country has very different meanings than it does here. I'm just saying, you're thinking about police in a way that presumes things like basic rule of law, civil rights, etc. Or moreover, that the police, fundamentally, are here to help you. I'm merely suggesting that not everyone has the same experience or assumptions and therefore, their difference in behavior from how you might handle the same situation would be understandably different.
As for Diallo - he wasn't chased down the block but I think he was chased up the steps to his door. The tripping thing would be comedic if not for the tragedy of it.
Diallo was shot 43 times, no?
I think a better comparison was the story of Ousmane Zongo, the man from Burkina Faso who was shot running from cops during a bootleg DVD raid in Manhattan a few years back...of course, the NYC circumstances are a lot different since there was no perceived threat of a suicide bomb, but the net result was the same.
*****
Ousmane Zongo, an immigrant from Burkina Faso, was shot to death by a police officer May 22 in the Manhattan warehouse where he worked on African art. The cops were carrying out a raid on a bootleg video operation allegedly based in the building where he worked. The man???s family arrived in the city at the end of last month and announced a $150 million wrongful death lawsuit.
*****
I can give you plenty of stories from my kids who all happen to be black and teenagers who live in Oakland about being beaten and harrased by the OPD for no reason.
In one related story, a senior of mine 2 years ago was hanging out with his friends in front of one of their houses in West Oakland on a weekend. A cop car sped up and slammed on its breaks to the curb in front of them. They all ran. The cops caught my student and a couple others, beat them with billy clubs, then asked for thier ids. They ran a check, found nothing and let them go. I asked my kid, why did you run from the police if you weren't doing anything? His response, what would you do if a cop car suddenly runs up on you? Fear will make you do things.
Diallo was shot 19 times. But the cops fired 41 shots.
From reading this story, I don't think the onus is on the police.
For me, this is no different than hearing about a guy who decided to cross the street against a red light & got run over. If dude would have obeyed, he'd still be breathing right now.
He took a chance & got whacked.
This doesn't mean that I'm not sorry it happened. It's a crying shame this dude didn't have the good sense to stop and put his arms in the air.
h
ah. to be clear--the Diallo situation is certainly relevant, i just thought that maybe we were getting wires crossed over the story/circumstances.
Uh Haz, sorry but that would only make sense if, in your example, the cops told him to stop and then he ran across the street, and then the cops RAN HIM DOWN in a patrol car.
This is exactly what I was talking about. I can not critisize the London police. They are trying to stop suicide bombers. There have been 4 suicide bombings and 4 attempted suicide bombings in London. They have choosen a shoot to kill approach to dealing with sucide bombings. That may or may not be a smart approach, but as a citizen of Portland Or USA I will leave that decision up to Londoners.
In Portland OR USA people are not only stopped for driving Black, they are shot dead. I am far more concerned by my local police deparments undefensible policy than Londons defensible one.
It appears to me that London is taking this shooting far more seriously is and will investigate it more thouroughly than any Portland police shooting ever has been.
Dan
What I meant was that if you take a chance with some things, you stand to stand to get hurt. But I think the difference from my POV & others is that I don't fear police - I don't understand why someone would not stop & listen to a police officer. It just seems crazy to me to run from an armed law official.
h
That said, you are practicing some supreme moral relativism - ie, if someone thinks in their country the police knock on the door to torture you, therefore an acceptible response is to jump out the window and run down the block? Just because that's the way the police in, say, Nigeria operate doesn't mean that's what to do here. If people would rather risk death than deportation, then that's the choice they've made and I feel terrible for the situation. But then they have risked it. I mean, I'm not arguing that cops are fucked up on all sorts of occasions to all sorts of people. But when will people realize that the last thing to do is run or fight? How many people have to die. We know what the police do. We know what they are ordered to do, and how they carry out those policies. Does this justify excessive use of force? Of course not. But if you're running, the presumption is you're guilty. Police are authorized to stop a guilty suspect from fleeing using necessary force - ie, shooting someone in the leg or tazing or whatever.
And once again, this is a COMPLETELY different set of circumstances. You can't possibly compare it to cops shooting unarmed people with no probable cause other than a cop slipping, a held wallet, etc. The cops in this circumstance were looking for a person to prevent a massive slaughter. Not some guy who might (possibly) be up to no good on an otherwise-regular day. It doesn't excuse what they did - it seems the cops in the UK are less experienced with firearms and crises like this. But it does, to a certain extent, explain it.
Look man - I respect the fact that you are one of the least IRrational folks around here. And I'm not remotely trying to say that you're hitting the pipe with your argument. And yes, there is some moral relativism in full effect but that's all around this conversation (not just you and me, but everybody).
So fine, let's put aside the Diallo comparison and just talk about what's at stake here.
Are the London police's actions UNDERSTANDABLE given the current climate? Yes.
Are they DEFENSIBLE? In my opinion, no.
What bothers me is the thinking that Haz is was putting out: that by running, Menelez was practically wearing a sign on his back that said, "shoot me." I can't abide by that kind of thinking especially in the ABSENCE OF OTHER EVIDENCE that would have supported the conclusion that dude was running in order to bomb a train.
This wasn't an accident in the sense that he ran, tripped, and hit the third rail (though that would be tragic as well). There was a decision made to unload a clip into his skull - it wasn't like the gun "accidentally" went off. I just can't see how running from the cops - in whatever the situation (again, absent any other actual evidence) can equal = license to be killed.
This seems perfectly reasonable to me - running from the cops does not give them the right to shoot you. Even if you are wearing an impractical coat. The London police need to seriously look into their methodology since a similar situation will probably happen again.
I can't pretend that I know anything about the law. I've always been under the impression, though, that a police officer can shoot you/kill you if you disobey them. That's why I've always tried to comply with the police if there's ever been a problem.
h
I think Vitamin has the better prespective than you today O-D.
In the USA police routinely shot people because "they feared for their life and had to make a split second decision". Any police officer who claims this is automaticly cleared of the killing. This gives USA police officers a liscence to kill. Happens in Portland at least once a year, despite the fact that the victoms are almost never armed, and Portland police officers are almost never shot at.
In London they are dealing with 8 subway bombings, over 50 people dead, many more hospitolized, plus 4 known sucide bombers on the loose.
To compare it to Diallo is stretch that just does not add up. NYPD were not dealing with 8 police shootings from men cornered in vestibles. The only part of your comparison argument is that both shootings were regreatable.
The officers in London mistakenly thought that they had a sucide bomber on a crowded train, shooting to kill in that situation is not comparable to concentration camps where whole populations are rounded up.
I agree it is comparable to the patriot act. The idea of congress passing laws to improve law inforcements ability to fight terrorists is a good one. The PARTRIOT ACT is a bad piece of legeslation but parts of it make sense, and other things that would make sense were not included.
I am not glibly defending the London shooting. In fact I am not defending it at all. I am just saying your arguments are weak. I think we should remember that none of the officers have been cleared, the goverment has issued an apology.
As for the "but he ran" argument. He made the wrong decision when he ran. The police made the wrong decision when they shot him. That is why we are talking about this. People made the wrong decisions.
Dan