Another question for lawyers

Grope

My girlfriend and me tried to catch our train home. When we came running towards the platform, the train was standing there. My girlfriend opened the door and she jumped in. The moment I put our bag inside and climbed the ladder, the train took off. The train driver hit the emergency brake, because the doors are supposed to be closed and shut off a few seconds before the start. So THEY forgot to lock them. The door opened upon using the door handle, so we went inside. b, 21We got chucked out by the train driver. The police came and they asekd questions etc. The policemen were pissed, because we didn't really do anything and they said it was a waste of time to write the report. The employee on the platform was really sorry about the situation. He changed our ticket, so that we could take the next train home. He said that it wasn't our fault.b, 21b, 21Fact is that the train driver and the guy on the platfornm forgot to lock the doors. How were we supposed that the train was about to start?b, 21b, 21Well, we got a bill today. They want us to pay A LOT of money, because we caused a delay. b, 21b, 21I tried to call them several times, but noone answers the phone. I'd like to ask them why they think that we caused the delay. We didn't do anything wrong.b, 21b, 21My law question: Was it our fault afterall? Should we get a lwyer? There's no red light or something that says that you can't try to open the door. We really didn't know that the train would start in that moment...b, 21b, 21What to do? THANKS!

sabadabada

If it were me, and I'm not a lawyer, I would write them back in a certified return receipt letter and retaining a copy for myself. Without being confrontational, I would tell them what happened, maybe include a copy of the letter you received from them. Tell them that you don't think you should have to pay, etc. etc. If they persist after that, than maybe I would get a lawyer, but a little self help might be enough to take care of the problem. A lot of times the person writing to you has no idea what's going on. A report just comes across their desk and they do whatever it is they've been told to do with reports like it.b, 21b, 21In retrospect, in the letter, I don;t think I would say anything about what happened except that you dont think you should pay. Because anything you say about the event may be considered an admission.

Grope

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b, 21If it were me, and I'm not a lawyer, I would write them back in a certified return receipt letter and retaining a copy for myself. Without being confrontational, I would tell them what happened, maybe include a copy of the letter you received from them. Tell them that you don't think you should have to pay, etc. etc. If they persist after that, than maybe I would get a lawyer, but a little self help might be enough to take care of the problem. A lot of times the person writing to you has no idea what's going on. A report just comes across their desk and they do whatever it is they've been told to do with reports like it.

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b, 21In retrospect, in the letter, I don;t think I would say anything about what happened except that you dont think you should pay. Because anything you say about the event may be considered an admission.

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21thanks. i think the same. i'm just worried because i have two weeks to pay and i guess the whole thing will take forever if i don't talk to them on the phone. i guess they won't even respond to a letter.b, 21b, 21do i have to pay within two weeks anyway? even if i plan on starting a law suit?

keithvanhorn

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b, 21do i have to pay within two weeks anyway? even if i plan on starting a law suit?

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21no. why would you start a lawsuit?b, 21b, 21i don't know enough about your situation to call this legal advice - but, based on what i think you are saying - i would just ignore their letter. whatever duty the train company is claiming you owe to them is certainly not contractual (unless there is some fine print on your train ticket that talks about being liable for delays caused by exuberance in getting on the train after it starts moving), nor is it likely statutory (obscure train laws?), so i'm struggling to figure out what type of cause of action they could bring against you.b, 21b, 21also, there really is no point in hiring a lawyer right now. they have to spend money to sue you, which they likely will not due. this is not a situation where a failure to pay will result in some harm to your credit since the bill is not really a bill - but a punishment.b, 21b, 21b, 21anyway.....do nothing. that is my advice.

sabadabada

I would continue to try and reach them by phone, part of the importance of the letter isnt so much that they respond but that you can show they receive it. I'd still be careful about making an admissions about what happened on the phone and just stick to a basic "if you check your own employees reports and the police reports I think you will find that we didn't do anything wrong." I would also be reluctant to send money, because giving it away is a lot easier than trying to get it back. I also personally wouldnt start the lawsuit, but would wait for them to take it to the next level. They have to serve notice on you so you can respond, and then at that time I would. But under no cicumstances should you just ignore it or throw things in the garbage thinking it will just go away.

Grope

really? hm... b, 21b, 21maybe i can just ask a lawyer in monday anyway. not for starting a law suit. i would like to know what this will end in. i can't pay the money after all. i'm broke!

sabadabada

Like Keith said, you arent going to pay any money in the end. Its just a question of whether you wait for them to give up, or you take some action to speed up its going away.

Grope

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b, 21Like Keith said, you arent going to pay any money in the end. Its just a question of whether you wait for them to give up, or you take some action to speed up its going away.

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21thanks! img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21

Controller_7

how long was the train delayed? A few minutes?b, 21b, 21What planet was this on?

djdaze

how the F*ck did they find out where you live? I'd burn it and send them the ashes with a straw and tell them to snort it cause they're on drugs anyways coming at you with that stupid shit.

Controller_7

I think KVH said it best, unless there is some sort of fine print regarding delays then I don't see how they can pin this on you. If you had access to the door from the platform and were able to get on the train without any type of manipulation (beyond holding it open), then what's the problem. They fucked up. You paid to use their service and you made an attempt to use it. There should have been a conductor paying attention. If there aren't conductors than the driver should have been looking out the window to see that all was clear before he started rolling. b, 21b, 21I really don't see how this can be your fault. If you stood in front of the train and said "hold up, let me on yo!" then I would understand. b, 21b, 21Maybe they are trying to swing things in their favor considering that they started rolling when a paying customer was not safely on board. b, 21b, 21if it really gets going to something else I think you've got some leverage in your favor. The fact that another employee apologized and issued you a new ticket says a lot.

DjArcadian

Send a response pleading your case. Include a copy of the police report and see if their own internal systems will excuse it. Don't get a lawyer until they actually take you to court. Keeps records of everything and see if you can speak with the train operator and get him to write a statement although that may be hard to do.

ost

Counter sue them.

keithvanhorn

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b, 21Send a response pleading your case.

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21no!

plkbryn

grope is like soulstrut's own palsgraf yo.

sabadabada

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b, 21grope is like soulstrut's own palsgraf yo.

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21i was waiting for the bomb to go off and the scale to fall.

Controller_7

the real question is...b, 21b, 21did you, at any point, say "I win" to them?

keithvanhorn

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b, 21grope is like soulstrut's own palsgraf yo.

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21ha. grope is a torts professor working on a fact pattern for his final.b, 21b, 21the train company a foreseeable plaintiff?

Grope

they know where i live, because the police wrote a report. why they got my address from the police? i have no clue!!!b, 21b, 21b, 21thanks for the replies. most of your humor was lost in translation but anyway, thanks!!!b, 21b, 21i'll call a lawyer on monday and try to ask questions. i'm scared, because i have no money to deal with this at the moment.

sub

how much do they want you to pay? just our of curiosity. the whole thing feels strange as german trains are late all the time anyhow....

Massive

Well, I'm a law student and I'm here again to drop some knowledge and that's about it. I can't offer legal advice because I'm not an attorney yet. b, 21b, 21It seems to me like your fear is they're going to come to your house and take the money from you but you have no money to pay. I understand that you don't have money to pay and you think you did nothing wrong. b, 21b, 21I just want to assure a railroad company or collection agency can't just come into your house and take your real or personal property. All of that nowadays is done judicially and you will have TONS of notice before that nonsense even materializes. It used to happen like during feudal times. Hell, you could even go to jail for not paying a debt. We just don't do that anymore. b, 21b, 21At worst, I imagine if you couldn't pay it would turn into a collection account. b, 21b, 21Yes, they could get a writ of execution and levy on any real and personal property, but that is usually when thousands of dollars are involved. You will be well aware, however, that they are coming after you with a writ because you will have to be 1)formally sued (must give you notice): 2) successfully obtain a judgment against you: 3) prove you have assets and then successfully receive a writ of execution. There may be more requirements in your jurisdiction, but this is how we do it in Texas. Don't be scared because stuff like this is months in the making and like I said usually it has to be worth all the trouble and expense because it takes alot of a lawyer's time and cost $$$ to do writs. I only know because the plaintiff's attorney I work for sometimes takes such remedial measures.b, 21b, 21How much are they asking from you anyhow?b, 21b, 21The best advice is already given: write a formal letter return receipt requested that is essentially a general denial of any wrong doing. Make sure you say:b, 21b, 211. You don't believe you did anything wrong.b, 212. You have a party admission from an employee who said "it's not your fault."b, 213. You have a police report that does not in anyway prove liability or guilt. b, 214. Make sure to include that anything typed in the letter shall not and cannot be construed as an admission of guilt. b, 215. Most importantly: tone. Be polite. Don't be arrogant and aggressive. It will get you no where. b, 21b, 21If you want, I will even help you draft the letter.b, 21b, 21 It's important that you do something now for two reasons. First, remember that silence or an omission of conduct in a civil case can be used against you. It's not the same in criminal cases. In other words, the question the jury is pondering is " would a reasonable person not guilty in such a situation remain silent?" The answer is hell no in case you're wondering. b, 21b, 21Secondly, as we all know, false or erroneous debts are a very difficult and time consuming to remove from your credit report. Take the first step and deal with it now! b, 21b, 21I hope this helps you out and if you need any other help or assitance, pm me. Peace.

keithvanhorn

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b, 21Well, I'm a law student and I'm here again to drop some knowledge and that's about it. I can't offer legal advice because I'm not an attorney yet.

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b, 21It seems to me like your fear is they're going to come to your house and take the money from you but you have no money to pay. I understand that you don't have money to pay and you think you did nothing wrong.

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b, 21I just want to assure a railroad company or collection agency can't just come into your house and take your real or personal property. All of that nowadays is done judicially and you will have TONS of notice before that nonsense even materializes. It used to happen like during feudal times. Hell, you could even go to jail for not paying a debt. We just don't do that anymore.

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b, 21At worst, I imagine if you couldn't pay it would turn into a collection account.

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b, 21Yes, they could get a writ of execution and levy on any real and personal property, but that is usually when thousands of dollars are involved. You will be well aware, however, that they are coming after you with a writ because you will have to be 1)formally sued (must give you notice): 2) successfully obtain a judgment against you: 3) prove you have assets and then successfully receive a writ of execution. There may be more requirements in your jurisdiction, but this is how we do it in Texas. Don't be scared because stuff like this is months in the making and like I said usually it has to be worth all the trouble and expense because it takes alot of a lawyer's time and cost $$$ to do writs. I only know because the plaintiff's attorney I work for sometimes takes such remedial measures.

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b, 21How much are they asking from you anyhow?

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b, 21The best advice is already given: write a formal letter return receipt requested that is essentially a general denial of any wrong doing. Make sure you say:

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b, 211. You don't believe you did anything wrong.

b, 212. You have a party admission from an employee who said "it's not your fault."

b, 213. You have a police report that does not in anyway prove liability or guilt.

b, 214. Make sure to include that anything typed in the letter shall not and cannot be construed as an admission of guilt.

b, 215. Most importantly: tone. Be polite. Don't be arrogant and aggressive. It will get you no where.

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b, 21If you want, I will even help you draft the letter.

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b, 21 It's important that you do something now for two reasons. First, remember that silence or an omission of conduct in a civil case can be used against you. It's not the same in criminal cases. In other words, the question the jury is pondering is " would a reasonable person not guilty in such a situation remain silent?" The answer is hell no in case you're wondering.

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b, 21Secondly, as we all know, false or erroneous debts are a very difficult and time consuming to remove from your credit report. Take the first step and deal with it now!

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b, 21I hope this helps you out and if you need any other help or assitance, pm me. Peace.

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21no. 99% of what you wrote is irrelevant and the rest is wrong. he is in germany and even if the law on writs of execution mirrored that of the states, which it likely doesn't, its entirely meaningless for the moment. also - just because someone doesn't have personal property doesn't mean they are immune from the effects of a judgment. try buying a house or car or getting a credit card with an unpaid judgment on your record.b, 21b, 21next - the best advice is my advice, which is to either do nothing or see a lawyer. i don't know where you go to law school, but you never advise a client to write a letter on their own. you are also wrong about the whole concept of silence being used against you. that relates to the jury instructions that are given in civil cases....and that alone. b, 21b, 21if some lunatic writes a letter to me telling me i owe him $5,000 , do you seriously think the law would require me to write a letter back claiming my innocence, so my silence couldn't be used against me???????b, 21b, 21b, 21back to the books, son.

mannybolone

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b, 21back to the books, son.

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I believe you forgot to add: b, 21b, 21 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/walkawaysonfinal.gif" alt="" 21

Terry_Clubbup

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b, 21- the best advice is my advice, which is to either do nothing or see a lawyer

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21BAN

selperfuge

now i've never used the postmoder graemlinb, 21b, 21but somehow i think this: a href="http://i36.tinypic.com/w9y8ev.jpg" target="_blank"1http://i36.tinypic.com/w9y8ev.jpg/a1b, 21b, 21deserves img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/postmodern.gif" alt="" 21img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/postmodern.gif" alt="" 21img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/postmodern.gif" alt="" 21b, 21now what if i submit?

phongone

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b, 21back to the books, son.

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b, 21I believe you forgot to add:

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Ah be nice to dude, he's trying. Nice attempt at applying the IRAC method. I would give dude an A+ if I was his lawyering skills/legal writing professor.

Grope

thanks for your advice. liek i said, i'll ask a lawyer to make sure i handle this properly. b, 21b, 21The cops said that a file will be charged against us. They have to do it. But they were 99.9% sure that it won't be any use for the train company. The policemen didn't understand why we were kicked out of the train. But the train driver has domestic authority. So they couldn't help us straight away. b, 21Since we didn't hear anything from the prosecution yet, I bet that the bill is legally wrong anyway. they need to wait for the judgement, right?

Massive

Well, 100% of what you wrote is wrong. b, 21b, 21It's not meaningless or irrelevant. His comments indicated or at least inferred he was fearful about people trying to take money from him. I'm just giving him a cursory understanding of writs so that he shouldn't have to worry so much about people taking anything from him. How is that irrelevant? How are you're reading comprehension skills?b, 21b, 21Fail.b, 21b, 21Secondly, I never said anyone who doesn't have property is immune from the effects of a judgment. Are you reading the same post?b, 21b, 21And you want to tell me about irrelevancy? Um, ok.b, 21b, 21I specifically said silence can be used against you in civil cases. Criminal is different. You said you disagree, yet I wrote the same thing. b, 21b, 21Third, he's not my client and I wouldn't advise my client to write a letter for himself. I'm trying to give him advise to handle this himself. He obviously feels competent enough to attempt to handle this himself by posting in a forum asking for guidance. b, 21b, 21Doing nothing is for careless losers. Look out for yourself because no one else will.

keithvanhorn

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b, 21Well, 100% of what you wrote is wrong.

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b, 21It's not meaningless or irrelevant. His comments indicated or at least inferred he was fearful about people trying to take money from him. I'm just giving him a cursory understanding of writs so that he shouldn't have to worry so much about people taking anything from him. How is that irrelevant? How are you're reading comprehension skills?

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b, 21Fail.

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b, 21Secondly, I never said anyone who doesn't have property is immune from the effects of a judgment. Are you reading the same post?

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b, 21And you want to tell me about irrelevancy? Um, ok.

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b, 21I specifically said silence can be used against you in civil cases. Criminal is different. You said you disagree, yet I wrote the same thing.

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b, 21Third, he's not my client and I wouldn't advise my client to write a letter for himself. I'm trying to give him advise to handle this himself. He obviously feels competent enough to attempt to handle this himself by posting in a forum asking for guidance.

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b, 21Doing nothing is for careless losers. Look out for yourself because no one else will.

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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21listen dershowitz, you've never tried a civil case before, let alone passed a bar exam or even finished law school - just fall back. you don't know what you are talking about and this last post is making me cringe at the fact that you can't even recognize your own ignorance. b, 21b, 21"Doing nothing is for careless losers". hahaha. okayyyy. call me a few years after you have been a civil litigator and tell me what percentage of intent to sue letters actually result in a response. and i'm not talking about letters sent to dudes like grope, but major corporations. silence can be a strategy.

mannybolone

Take this shit to lawyer-beef.com.b, 21b, 21Legal dick measuring contests = snore.