b, 21How fast are hitlist plans being drafted in Israel right now?
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b, 21this isnt 1972. they can't go around offing any splinter group that kills a few Jews (*sigh* who's got the time for that really?). they got bigger fish to fry I imagine.
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b, 21anyway whoever did this is prolly in Israel's database already anyway.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I don't know - we're talking about a specific targeting on a Jewish center and killing of a rabbi and his wife. That's seem kind of "big fish" to think about "addressing." Not like I know the mind of Mossad or anything but in general, I just wouldn't want to get onto their radar for any reason.
man I wish the Mossad was half as effective as the mythology surrounding them would have them be.b, 21b, 21(but that's neither here nor there; just ruminating. pretty sure the Mossad could get these guys if they wanted to).
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21 [i]"One of the principal complaints of Indian Muslim groups is the failure to bring to trial any of the Hindu ringleaders responsible for pogroms in Bombay in 1993 and Gujarat in 2002 in which more than 4,000 Muslims died."/i1 b, 21b, 21^^^ yeah this is a greivance that's often mentioned. ^^^^ It is indeed despicable how local law enforcement seems unwilling to address anti-Muslim violence in a serious way.b, 21b, 21insofar as Spelunk's remark is concerned (that Muslims have it bad in India to begin with (and these attacks could make it worse)), this is a fine example of that.b, 21b, 21(but it's offered in the article as an example of why these attacks occured in the first place, and for that it's not a very satisfying one. after all these attacks seemed aimed at Brits, Americans and Jews. to the extent that it disrupts India's economy by targeting its financial center, all the better (from the terrorists' standpoint that is), but that doesn't seem to have been the main aim.)
b, 21sorry to offend members of the Ann Coulter fan club...
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b, 21Ann Coulter's whole deal is that she's doing schtick, like some WWE-type shit. She's the heel wrestler of the political punditry world, and people who don't understand that and actually take her seriously are like people who think wrestling is real.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21wait, you mean....?!
b, 21man I wish the Mossad was half as effective as the mythology surrounding them would have them be.
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b, 21(but that's neither here nor there; just ruminating. pretty sure the Mossad could get these guys if they wanted to).
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I'm not suggesting they're super-soldiers but more so than most nations, they take security hyper-seriously (for obvious reasons). I'm just suggesting that going after Jewish soft targets invites a level of response that may exceed what you'd see from other Western nations.
b, 21man I wish the Mossad was half as effective as the mythology surrounding them would have them be.
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b, 21(but that's neither here nor there; just ruminating. pretty sure the Mossad could get these guys if they wanted to).
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b, 21I'm not suggesting they're super-soldiers but more so than most nations, they take security hyper-seriously (for obvious reasons). I'm just suggesting that going after Jewish soft targets invites a level of response that may exceed what you'd see from other Western nations.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I think that in the end, the Mossad will be just as limited in ways to respond or seek retaliation as the secret services or the armies of Western nations. You can't really do anything that would in the end play into the hands of terrorism and radical islamistic goups. You can't fight people who don't value life and who really seriously believe in a paradise with a horde of virgins. Any response, even if it would at first seem effective would only strengthen the extremists and strengthen their supply with more willing fighters and martyrs. If the US army and the CIA can't get ahold of Bin Laden, what is the Mossad going to do? Nuke Pakistan?b, 21b, 21The only way to effectively fight terrorism would be to refuse to fight and not let fear, outrage, pride or honor lead you into a fight that you can't win.
b, 21The only way to effectively fight terrorism would be to refuse to fight and not let fear, outrage, pride or honor lead you into a fight that you can't win.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Peacenik!b, 21b, 21img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21b, 21b, 21Seriously though, terrorism isn't necessarily driven by ideology and moreover, any level of coordinated action requires infrastructure and organization - those are all things one can (and people constantly do) go after. Of course, it doesn't hurt to also look at the underlying social tensions fueling interest in terrorist activity (economic inequality or social persecution, for example) but it's not like you can't address the base while also addressing terrorist organizations simultaneously.
b, 21The only way to effectively fight terrorism would be to refuse to fight and not let fear, outrage, pride or honor lead you into a fight that you can't win.
b, 21Seriously though, terrorism isn't necessarily driven by ideology and moreover, any level of coordinated action requires infrastructure and organization - those are all things one can (and people constantly do) go after. Of course, it doesn't hurt to also look at the underlying social tensions fueling interest in terrorist activity (economic inequality or social persecution, for example) but it's not like you can't address the base while also addressing terrorist organizations simultaneously.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21No, not a peacenik at all. Seeing shit like this makes my blood boil and makes me want to see someone take revenge and fix it so nothing like this will happen again. But you just have to accept that these organisations are built up to get destroyed. If you go after the people who orchestrated these attacks, you most probably won't find them. You'll find old training grounds and probably some left behind video tapes that the TV stations are going to fall all over themselves to air, giving islamic terror some free commercial air time. And even if the people directly responsible for the attacks are found and killed, you still play into their hand. You turn them into martyrs. They become even more powerful and more people want to be like them. So who else or what else do you want to go after? There are no weapons of mass destruction, no big mastermind who can be killed and then it's over. A backpack full of handgranades and assault rifels, that's nothing. You can buy that shit for less money than it would take to buy a used car in any "conflict region" in this world. It doesn't take a unique, evil genius to tell people to go inside some hotels and shoot everybody, especially everybody who looks Western. So who do you want to fight?b, 21b, 21To aggressively and effectively fight islamic terrorism, one would have to resort to measures so extreme that would make Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo look like Sesame Street. Any "freedom-loving" society that promotes democracy and basic human rights would have to turn into their own worst nightmare and since it's impossible to imprison everybody who is or could become a islamic terrorist, you'd have to begin killing people on an industrial scale. There's imans turning hundreds and thousands of believers into potential terrorists in mosques and koran schools every day and all over the world. I've witnessed shit like that in Guinea where more and more radical imans are being installed in mosques in the poorer neighborhoods. The West African mentality is very non-islamistic, people drink alcohol, women dress nicely, you wouldn't even think you're in a muslim country. Businesses even decorate for christmas (not that I'm too crazy for that...). In the poorer urban areas it's changing though, within the 3 years I stayed there, you could see more and more women coming to the market totally covererd head to toe. I got to talk to an iman on one occasions who's just been Saudi Arabia. He knew that I was from Germany and told me that he knew all about Hitler and what a great job the germans had done with the holoaust. It was pretty disgusting. And that's a super moderate country for you. Why do you think Saudi Arabia spends millions to have people like this iman spread antisemitic propaganda in such a remote place? Why should anybody make a West African iman believe and spread the idea that killing millions of jews was a good thing and teach this to children and church goers? I think that they are preparing the grounds for recruiting new terrorists. You have people in poor coutries who grew up having their brain washed -or better polluted by such nonsense, -some of them will be ready to do just about anything. How do you want to fight this? The dilemma of Guantanamo illustrates this problem very clear: you don't have the moral or legal grounds to kill these people but you can't afford to set them free. In most cases, you can't proove that someone is a terrorist, you can suspect that they are but that doesn't giveyou grounds to hold them and holding them doesn't love the problem, you'd have to kill them and of course you can't do that. Ultimatively, they will have to be set free and I doubt that they will then start spreading the idea of love, understanding and religious tolerance. You can't win this fight because first of all, you can't really locate the enemy. There is a multitude of different enemies in different places but most importantly, every hostile action against any one of these enemies will activate new ones. This so called "war on terror" is nothing but impotent show fighting to make people believe that something can be done.
b, 21The only way to effectively fight terrorism would be to refuse to fight and not let fear, outrage, pride or honor lead you into a fight that you can't win.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21There is not a choice between fighting terrorists or not fighting terrorists. There is only a choice between fighting terrorists or allowing them to bomb us to their hearts content. Whilst your rope-a-dope, let them bomb themselves out strategy is novel, I doubt it would be very effective.
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21This is only a good read if you desire an insight into just how uninterested many liberals are in reconciling their ideas with reality.b, 21b, 21Here are just a few of the problems with the articleb, 21b, 21- if the 'underrepresentation'* of muslims in the higher levels of indian society can so glibly be attributed to prejudice why do similar disparities between indian muslims and indian hindus present themselves in western immigrant populations? I doubt your average redneck could tell the difference between an indian hindu and an indian muslim so youd expect them to face similar levels of prejudice. Yet despite this indian muslims in america and other western societies have higher crime rates, lower educational attainment and lower incomes than indian hindus. b, 21b, 21- if persecution is really such a big factor in inspiring muslims to radicalism then how do you explain the widespread radicalism of many muslim majority countries? who the F*ck is persecuting muslims in saudi arabia and pakistan? No-one and yet your average saudi or pakistani is more likely to support islamic radicalism than the average muslim in a country where we are told they face such harsh persecution.(just recently there was a thread where struts were eager to sympathise with the imagined plight of muslims in racist america. I linked to the figures that showed that an american jew is five times more likely to be a victim of a hate crime than an american muslim but of course this was ignored)b, 21b, 21- If social inequalities are such a big factor in causing islamic terrorism then why do terrorists tend to have more education and higher earnings than is average in the societies they hail from?(see 'what makes a terrorist' - Alan b. kruger)b, 21b, 21- Let's ignore the reality for a moment and assume that liberal claims regarding social inequality and persecution of muslim populations are accurate. There are of course huge numbers of populations which could be said to face persecution and suffer from inequality in income and status. Even if we accept the false assumptions of the liberal hypothesis of islamic terrorism it is still powerless to explain why a subset of this much larger group is responsible for an overwhelming amount of the terrorism committed.(a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2008" target="_blank"1terror incidents 2008/a1) b, 21b, 21*liberals seem to have the idea that in a world where prejudice didn't exist then the proportion of racial representation in every field would match the proportion of races in society as a whole. Almost all the 'empirical' techniques of the social sciences used to measure discrimination rest on this nonsensical assumption.
b, 21I was worried about some of my friends over there for a wedding then on the news one of my friends gets a radio interview and starts cracking jokes(whilst still hiding out in a restaurant), but this style of attack is extremely scary.
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b, 21Was that Isaac?? He's mates with one of my friends too....all very full on!! Couldn't believe how composed he was!! Heard Brooke Satchwell too and she was trying to crack jokes also!! V crazy and sad!!
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21yes, yes it was isaac, its a small world!
b, 21A viewpoint i've not read before or even considered until now...b, 21b, 21a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7755684.stm" target="_blank"1http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7755684.stm/a1b, 21b, 21"No matter how corrupt your moral sense, how contorted your view of the world, how vapid and inarticulate your ideas, how talentless you are and how exaggerated your grievance, an obsessive audience will watch your every move and turn you into what you most want to be, just before your death."
b, 21"No matter how corrupt your moral sense, how contorted your view of the world, how vapid and inarticulate your ideas, how talentless you are and how exaggerated your grievance, an obsessive audience will watch your every move and turn you into what you most want to be, just before your death."
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Nice.b, 21b, 21Thanks for posting that, a good read.
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21touching insofar as his family was affected. but zero real insight into the situation. the only color he gives to the situation of Mulsims in India (that they are "underrepresented at every economic, political and social level???with a few high-profile exceptions") is not a satisfying explanation for the terrorists' having targeted Americans, Brits and Jews.
b, 21The only way to effectively fight terrorism would be to refuse to fight and not let fear, outrage, pride or honor lead you into a fight that you can't win.
b, 21Seriously though, terrorism isn't necessarily driven by ideology and moreover, any level of coordinated action requires infrastructure and organization - those are all things one can (and people constantly do) go after. Of course, it doesn't hurt to also look at the underlying social tensions fueling interest in terrorist activity (economic inequality or social persecution, for example) but it's not like you can't address the base while also addressing terrorist organizations simultaneously.
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b, 21No, not a peacenik at all. Seeing shit like this makes my blood boil and makes me want to see someone take revenge and fix it so nothing like this will happen again. But you just have to accept that these organisations are built up to get destroyed. If you go after the people who orchestrated these attacks, you most probably won't find them. You'll find old training grounds and probably some left behind video tapes that the TV stations are going to fall all over themselves to air, giving islamic terror some free commercial air time. And even if the people directly responsible for the attacks are found and killed, you still play into their hand. You turn them into martyrs. They become even more powerful and more people want to be like them. So who else or what else do you want to go after? There are no weapons of mass destruction, no big mastermind who can be killed and then it's over. A backpack full of handgranades and assault rifels, that's nothing. You can buy that shit for less money than it would take to buy a used car in any "conflict region" in this world. It doesn't take a unique, evil genius to tell people to go inside some hotels and shoot everybody, especially everybody who looks Western. So who do you want to fight?
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b, 21To aggressively and effectively fight islamic terrorism, one would have to resort to measures so extreme that would make Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo look like Sesame Street. Any "freedom-loving" society that promotes democracy and basic human rights would have to turn into their own worst nightmare and since it's impossible to imprison everybody who is or could become a islamic terrorist, you'd have to begin killing people on an industrial scale. There's imans turning hundreds and thousands of believers into potential terrorists in mosques and koran schools every day and all over the world. I've witnessed shit like that in Guinea where more and more radical imans are being installed in mosques in the poorer neighborhoods. The West African mentality is very non-islamistic, people drink alcohol, women dress nicely, you wouldn't even think you're in a muslim country. Businesses even decorate for christmas (not that I'm too crazy for that...). In the poorer urban areas it's changing though, within the 3 years I stayed there, you could see more and more women coming to the market totally covererd head to toe. I got to talk to an iman on one occasions who's just been Saudi Arabia. He knew that I was from Germany and told me that he knew all about Hitler and what a great job the germans had done with the holoaust. It was pretty disgusting. And that's a super moderate country for you. Why do you think Saudi Arabia spends millions to have people like this iman spread antisemitic propaganda in such a remote place? Why should anybody make a West African iman believe and spread the idea that killing millions of jews was a good thing and teach this to children and church goers? I think that they are preparing the grounds for recruiting new terrorists. You have people in poor coutries who grew up having their brain washed -or better polluted by such nonsense, -some of them will be ready to do just about anything. How do you want to fight this? The dilemma of Guantanamo illustrates this problem very clear: you don't have the moral or legal grounds to kill these people but you can't afford to set them free. In most cases, you can't proove that someone is a terrorist, you can suspect that they are but that doesn't giveyou grounds to hold them and holding them doesn't love the problem, you'd have to kill them and of course you can't do that. Ultimatively, they will have to be set free and I doubt that they will then start spreading the idea of love, understanding and religious tolerance. You can't win this fight because first of all, you can't really locate the enemy. There is a multitude of different enemies in different places but most importantly, every hostile action against any one of these enemies will activate new ones. This so called "war on terror" is nothing but impotent show fighting to make people believe that something can be done.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Well put, from a voice of experience (and I'm not giving O a converse brush-off by saying this).b, 21b, 21From my perch, my limited viewpoint is this: there is little that Representative Republics and Democracies can militarily do to substantively stop - and not merely delay - acts of terror. Any human, unassisted, can walk into and open fire in, say, a library in middle America. Within the framework of an open society, no police force can realistically stop a human being from an atrocity such as this.b, 21b, 21Globally, what I'm most concerned about is the very small minority of Muslim youth that embrace the most sinister angles of their faith and have the intelligence and technology to apply it on a world-wide scale. As it applies to Irani and Afghani militants, I'm of the mind that any lasting change for peace must come socially, meaning that a fragile detente with the imams and the mullahs, et al must be in the works. Gunfire cannot put out a religious fire - and the histories of the world's largest religions bear this out. All major world faiths have overcome "persecution" and have grown stronger as a process.b, 21b, 21Unfortunately, enlightenment often loses out to the power of superstition.b, 21b, 21And I might be n??ive to even breathe it, but even by a gesture as small as electing Barack Obama, America has substantively shown that its successive generations can gradually work towards supplanting old evils. I should like to believe that the same sense of social purpose can work for the benefit of other countries, though they may not be borne of the same constitution.
b, 21- if persecution is really such a big factor in inspiring muslims to radicalism then how do you explain the widespread radicalism of many muslim majority countries? who the F*ck is persecuting muslims in saudi arabia and pakistan? No-one and yet your average saudi or pakistani is more likely to support islamic radicalism than the average muslim in a country where we are told they face such harsh persecution.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Pakistan is quite a poor country, and I suspect a lot of Muslims in Saudi Arabia are still dreaming of hitting oil in their backyard. Isn't poverty the one thing that ties together chances of radicalisation?b, 21b, 21b, 21/font1
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b, 21(just recently there was a thread where struts were eager to sympathise with the imagined plight of muslims in racist america. I linked to the figures that showed that an american jew is five times more likely to be a victim of a hate crime than an american muslim but of course this was ignored)
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Lies, damn lies, and statistics.b, 21How many Jews are there in America?b, 21How many Muslims are there in America?b, 21Is the difference in numbers as much as say, five times? Maybe more? Maybe more likely to be a victim of a race crime? Stats can be twisted to show anything you want if you leave the right things out.
b, 21- if persecution is really such a big factor in inspiring muslims to radicalism then how do you explain the widespread radicalism of many muslim majority countries? who the F*ck is persecuting muslims in saudi arabia and pakistan? No-one and yet your average saudi or pakistani is more likely to support islamic radicalism than the average muslim in a country where we are told they face such harsh persecution.
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b, 21Pakistan is quite a poor country, and I suspect a lot of Muslims in Saudi Arabia are still dreaming of hitting oil in their backyard. Isn't poverty the one thing that ties together chances of radicalisation?
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font class="post"1b, 21 the poverty-terrorism link is pretty weak; 9/11 is a good example.b, 21b, 21/font1
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b, 21(just recently there was a thread where struts were eager to sympathise with the imagined plight of muslims in racist america. I linked to the figures that showed that an american jew is five times more likely to be a victim of a hate crime than an american muslim but of course this was ignored)
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b, 21Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
b, 21How many Jews are there in America?
b, 21How many Muslims are there in America?
b, 21Is the difference in numbers as much as say, five times? Maybe more? Maybe more likely to be a victim of a race crime? Stats can be twisted to show anything you want if you leave the right things out.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21 no dude; unfortunately he's right. Jews are way more likely to be the victim of a hate crime in America, despite the far fewer numbers of them. it's fusked I know.
MUMBAI, India ??? The Mumbai police on Thursday identified a second Pakistani terrorist as an engineer of the bloody assaults on the city last week and confirmed that they were investigating whether a Mumbai man arrested on terrorism charges had scoped out some of the high-profile targets the attackers struck, leaving more than 170 dead.b, 21b, 21Gruesome new evidence also emerged Thursday suggesting that some of the six people killed at the Jewish center in Mumbai had been treated savagely. Some of the bodies appeared to have strangulation marks and wounds on their bodies did not come from gunshots or grenades, the police said.
b, 21MUMBAI, India ??? The Mumbai police on Thursday identified a second Pakistani terrorist as an engineer of the bloody assaults on the city last week and confirmed that they were investigating whether a Mumbai man arrested on terrorism charges had scoped out some of the high-profile targets the attackers struck, leaving more than 170 dead.
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b, 21Gruesome new evidence also emerged Thursday suggesting that some of the six people killed at the Jewish center in Mumbai had been treated savagely. Some of the bodies appeared to have strangulation marks and wounds on their bodies did not come from gunshots or grenades, the police said.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21This is going to be bad. India is entirely blaming Pakistan. Escalation could led to the unthinkable.
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