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Sasha Frere Jones puts the SMACKDOWN on Indie Rock

tonyphronetonyphrone 1,500 Posts
edited October 2007 in Strut Central
not really- but he makes some good points:http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2007/10/22/071022crmu_music_frerejones
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  • FatbackFatback 6,746 Posts
    no he doesn't.

    yeah, i was watching junkyard band this weekend and thinking go-go is not emo enough these days.

    get the fuck out.
  • JimBeamJimBeam Seattle. 2,012 Posts
    I did like this, although it is covered in SFJ-ness
    I can imagine James Brown writing dull material. I can even imagine the Meters wearing out their fans by playing a little too long. But I can???t imagine any of these musicians retreating inward and settling for the lassitude and monotony that so many indie acts seem to confuse with authenticity and significance.
  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    no he doesn't.

    yeah, i was watching junkyard band this weekend and thinking go-go is not emo enough these days.

    get the fuck out.

    ^^^^^^^COLLECTS RARE UI/STEROLAB SPLIT 7"S
  • tonyphronetonyphrone 1,500 Posts
    I did like this, although it is covered in SFJ-ness
    [

    agreed- but i think the arcade fire/decemberist/sufjan backlash is long overdue. (even though those groups DO have some jams.) And I think he blames Pavement for the lack of funk in todays rock music- i say it goes back to R.E.M.
  • HarveyCanalHarveyCanal "a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
    I did like this, although it is covered in SFJ-ness
    [

    agreed- but i think the arcade fire/decemberist/sufjan backlash is long overdue. (even though those groups DO have some jams.) And I think he blames Pavement for the lack of funk in todays rock music- i say it goes back to R.E.M.

    REM and Pavement aren't fun?

    That's news to me.
  • GenePontecorvoGenePontecorvo 5,612 Posts
    funK, mang.
  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
    I did like this, although it is covered in SFJ-ness
    [

    agreed- but i think the arcade fire/decemberist/sufjan backlash is long overdue. the lack of fun[/b] in todays rock music

    rock used to be an escape from boring work a day life, "kick out the jams" if you will, a party, about freedom...now it is lame, boring, about stupid bullshit self-centered bummer, why doesnt anyone like me? bullshit...very Un-Fun. Rock music is supposed to rise above the bullshit, not give you a myspace bulletin about how you are feeling.
  • edith headedith head 5,106 Posts
    And I think he blames Pavement for the lack of funk in todays rock music- i say it goes back to R.E.M.

    they may have not had the funk but they we're dancey, especially tracks like "stumble" and "wolves lower" off of chronic town which rocked the four-to-the-floor disco beat.
  • dgriotdgriot 388 Posts
    So, that whole !!!/Liars/Outhud/etc. post-punk revival thing never existed?
  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
    So, that whole !!!/Liars/Outhud/etc. post-punk revival thing never existed?

    not in the realm of 6 digit record sales
  • jamesjames chicago 1,863 Posts
    [Rock is] about freedom

    Rock music is supposed to __________

    Well, which is it?
  • dgriotdgriot 388 Posts
    So, that whole !!!/Liars/Outhud/etc. post-punk revival thing never existed?

    not in the realm of 6 digit record sales

    And Sufjan Stevens, Panda Bear, Devendra Banhart, etc. are in that realm?

    I mean, this is the same person who made a whole "INDIE ROCKERS DISCOVER RHYTHM" thing a few months ago

    http://www.newyorker.com/arts/reviews/recordings/2007/03/26/070326gore_GOAT_recordings_frerejones

    I donno, I'm with Fatback - comes off as a pointless anything is anything critique.
  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
    [Rock is] about freedom

    Rock music is supposed to __________

    Well, which is it?

    I shoulda added the "supposed to" the freedom thing as well, typing before thinking.

    It is supposed to do a lot of things it used to do, but doesnt anymore.
  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
    As a rock fan I admit I dont understand rock anymore, my views of what rock music and its "culture" should be about are very very anitquated. This has never been more apparent as my handing a bottle of tequila to the guitar player from the Kings of Leon after getting out of the Limo and him questioning "its not going to burn is it?" and my response being a laugh and "you want to be Keith Richards?"
  • jamesjames chicago 1,863 Posts
    [Rock is] about freedom

    Rock music is supposed to __________

    Well, which is it?

    I shoulda added the "supposed to" the freedom thing as well, typing before thinking.

    It is supposed to do a lot of things it used to do, but doesnt anymore.

    I still don't get it--"Rock is supposed to be about freedom"? Doesn't that freedom include freedom from having to be about anything in particular?

    I'm really not trying to pick on you, but I have the same problem with statements like yours as I have with articles like his: I see little sense in what boils down to "I fell in love with [genre x] because it was so dynamic...why did it have to change?"
  • tonyphronetonyphrone 1,500 Posts
    THE REBUTTAL:

    http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/statusainthood/archives/2007/10/breihan_vs_harv.php
  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    he does kind of have a point though.

    the rhythm playing in most current 'indie' is pretty lacking - funky or not.
  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts

    "standard blog-rock stuff in 2/3 time"

    AWESOME
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts

    From bad to worse.
  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    rock critics really have thier own little thing don't they?

    does anyone really pay attention?

  • GaryGary 3,982 Posts
    rock fans vs. rap fans

    who gets more angry on the internets?

    who blogs the most fury?
  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    O dub is on the radio right now.

    haha.
  • tonyphronetonyphrone 1,500 Posts

    From bad to worse.

    I agree- I generally like SFJ's writing (the NY Times Timbo/Neptunes article springs to mind...)- but he might have missed the boat on this topic.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts

    From bad to worse.

    I agree- I generally like SFJ's writing (the NY Times Timbo/Neptunes article springs to mind...)- but he might have missed the boat on this topic.

    I respect Sasha a lot but this has to be one of the worse things by him I've ever seen. I don't fault his ambition but the execution is just awkward and I think he gets some parts flat out wrong.

    The fact that the Voice even felt compelled to "respond" to it is some pure echo chamber action but in all fairness, it's the Voice's blog and this is the kind of story (Sasha's) that blogs were meant to respond to.
  • tonyphronetonyphrone 1,500 Posts
    he does kind of have a point though.

    the rhythm playing in most current 'indie' is pretty lacking - funky or not.

    i think there's always been a suburban (white) slant to rock n' roll since at least since the early 60's- so I acctually dont think he has a point at all. Everything cant be funky.
  • UnconSciUnconSci 824 Posts
    That article was dumb as hell. Same shit people have been saying forever. Its like this article denies the fact that EVERYONE regardless of color learns EVERYTHING they know from SOMEWHERE. Is she saying that If I was black I'd have more of a right to create music that started off with black creators? Im not speaking on 100% accuracy here... but heres kinda my take on all this shit. I dont think Africans invented the guitars that they played the blues on... so since they didn't invent the guitars... aren't they just using a white instrument to create their music? Jazz took the rhythm, heart, and improvisation that blacks pioneered and eventually fused it with the complex melodies of european classical stuff. In tons of my favorite old records I have that I guess she is claming influenced white kids now to play in indie rock bands, there are many that include white members... or latin or whatever else.

    Shit... I mean... If dark skinned people came from europe and light skinned people came from africa wouldn't it all be flipped? So isn't it not an issue of race... but rather... class, and the state in which your country of origin is/was in?

    Heres who I think should be most qualified to make music, whoever is most interested in making it. Nobody owns music. And isn't jazz and rock American music? or is it just whole heartedly black music that white people have no use touching... even though black musicians generally became proud of themselves as their music crossed race barriers. Creating music and style is just like creating dialect and any other form of culture.... You become what you bounce off of.

    Ultimately.... If black people wanted to keep black music black... they should have strictly played it for black people... and never... i mean NEVER let white people hear it.

    But in reality... I dont think there is black music or white music.... there is oppressed music... and theres progresssive music. Maybe slavery has a lot to do with it, because blacks are more often opressed than whites, and whites often have more access to musical training... thus blacks predisposed statistically to have darker experiences to draw from... and whites are predisposed statistically to end up taking arts and taking them to a crazy advanced technical level.

    I hope this makes sense. Also hope I didn't manage to come off like a racist or an oblivious white kid. Am I wrong?
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts

    i think there's always been a suburban (white) slant to rock n' roll since at least since the early 60's- so I acctually dont think he has a point at all. Everything cant be funky.

    The thing is that "rock" is such a sprawling genre, it's hard to make sweeping generalizations about it. But this idea that "indie rock = rock minus Blackness" has been around for a while and I don't think it's necessarily a "wrong" read. But I'm not sure what the point is in basing an entire NYer piece around this observation is.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    The sad thing about this article is how it encourages even more ignorant responses like this below.

    And Sasha is a HE, not SHE.


    That article was dumb as hell. Same shit people have been saying forever. Its like this article denies the fact that EVERYONE regardless of color learns EVERYTHING they know from SOMEWHERE. Is she saying that If I was black I'd have more of a right to create music that started off with black creators? Im not speaking on 100% accuracy here... but heres kinda my take on all this shit. I dont think Africans invented the guitars that they played the blues on... so since they didn't invent the guitars... aren't they just using a white instrument to create their music? Jazz took the rhythm, heart, and improvisation that blacks pioneered and eventually fused it with the complex melodies of european classical stuff. In tons of my favorite old records I have that I guess she is claming influenced white kids now to play in indie rock bands, there are many that include white members... or latin or whatever else.

    Shit... I mean... If dark skinned people came from europe and light skinned people came from africa wouldn't it all be flipped? So isn't it not an issue of race... but rather... class, and the state in which your country of origin is/was in?

    Heres who I think should be most qualified to make music, whoever is most interested in making it. Nobody owns music. And isn't jazz and rock American music? or is it just whole heartedly black music that white people have no use touching... even though black musicians generally became proud of themselves as their music crossed race barriers. Creating music and style is just like creating dialect and any other form of culture.... You become what you bounce off of.

    Ultimately.... If black people wanted to keep black music black... they should have strictly played it for black people... and never... i mean NEVER let white people hear it.

    But in reality... I dont think there is black music or white music.... there is oppressed music... and theres progresssive music. Maybe slavery has a lot to do with it, because blacks are more often opressed than whites, and whites often have more access to musical training... thus blacks predisposed statistically to have darker experiences to draw from... and whites are predisposed statistically to end up taking arts and taking them to a crazy advanced technical level.

    I hope this makes sense. Also hope I didn't manage to come off like a racist or an oblivious white kid. Am I wrong?
  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    Even as someone who would probably agree with branding most indie-rock junk "soul-less" or whatnot, I have no clue what any of these guys are really trying to say here. Couldn't they have just summed it up by saying that indie-rock rhythm sections are stale, and indie-rock drummers generally suck?

    I understand that he's trying to bring in the historical perspective into it, but I'm just not sure how relevant it really is at this point, decades after the rhythmic shift he is writing about started.
  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    But this idea that "indie rock = rock minus Blackness" has been around for a while and I don't think it's necessarily a "wrong" read.

    Nor is it a new trope--I thought that was what prog was supposed to be?
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