"A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" Drums Appreciation

Big_Stacks

Hey,I've been on a mission to buy all CDs of classic hip-hop LPs that I bought during the cassette era. "A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" was my latest purchase on this mission (along with "4,5,6" by Kool G. Rap"). Anyway, I'm not sure if Mista Lawnge used all drum breaks, or did programming. The drums often had multiple drum parts, cymbals, or other percussive sample layered atop one another. I was impressed by how natural and funky the drum programming sounded throughout the CD. I was wondering has anyone else made this observation? The programming on this LP, to me, was a work-of-art given the time period (1991).Peace,Big Stacks from Kakalak

batmon

Im pretty sure Mr.Lawnge was rubbing elbows w/ Afrika Baby Bam,Q-Tip,Posdanus,Prince Paul/Juju and the rest of them during the recording of this album. I remember meeting/seeing Black Sheep at Calliope. Shane Faber was there as well, if i recall.
I dont own this album, so I cant properly critque.

crossings

not just the drums, but the layering of samples throughout that entire album is pretty mindblowing... definitely in my top 10 of all time hiphop LPs. after fifteen years i'm still finding stuff that was sampled on that album... there's alot going on in that album production wise.

crossings

and in case anyone was wondering... the recent vinyl repress sounds great. i recently picked up a copy on white vinyl and was doubting how the quality was gonna be... but it couldn't sound better for a repress.

Phill_Most

Stacks, around the time that the 1st Black Sheep lp came out I was working in the studio with an engineer who did some work on that album. He told me that they definitely programmed kicks and snares under the drum breaks to give them more "oomph". All just hearsay, of course, but that's the word i got on it

(BTW, that engineer was the dopest I ever worked with... he was doing some crazy schitt with the compressors and he wouldn't let anybody see what he was doing, but he had the drum loops BANGIN like a mug, even without any programmed kicks and snares! )

Big_Stacks

not just the drums, but the layering of samples throughout that entire album is pretty mindblowing... definitely in my top 10 of all time hiphop LPs. after fifteen years i'm still finding stuff that was sampled on that album... there's alot going on in that album production wise.

Hey Crossings,

Yes, the production overall was great, of course. I knew that already, but I never cued in on how natural and "loop-like" all the drums sounded on the LP (I'm assuming not all of the drums were loops). The drums sounded like some cat playing a drumset throughout the album.

Peace,

Big Stacks from Kakalak

Phill_Most

I never cued in on how natural and "loop-like" all the drums sounded on the LP (I'm assuming not all of the drums were loops). The drums sounded like some cat playing a drumset throughout the album.

nah, homie... the drums sound like that because they are all loops, sometimes multiple loops layered on top of each other. Like I said, they just programmed drum kicks and snares underneath to accentuate the sound

most of the drum loops used on that album are pretty well known by now... for more info on that subject i guess one could

Big_Stacks

I never cued in on how natural and "loop-like" all the drums sounded on the LP (I'm assuming not all of the drums were loops). The drums sounded like some cat playing a drumset throughout the album.

nah, homie... the drums sound like that because they are all loops, sometimes multiple loops layered on top of each other. Like I said, they just programmed drum kicks and snares underneath to accentuate the sound

most of the drum loops used on that album are pretty well known by now... for more info on that subject i guess one could

Hey Phill,

Oh, then this negates my whole appreciation (since drum loops do sound natural, obviously). I assumed they were doin' some "kick-snare"-type programming. I thought they were on some Pete Rock "program light snares with heavy snares to mimic accents on certain snare notes to make the best sound like loops"-style programming in '91. I recognized most of the drum loops on there (e.g., "Hunk O' Funk", "Soil I Tilled for You," "Keep on Doin' It," "North Carolina," "Joy," "Upon This Rock," etc.), I think they just chopped some of them to make them sound differently (e.g., "Gimme the Finger" which sounds like a spliced version of "One Mand Band" to me).

Peace,

Big Stacks from Kakalak

Delay

I played w/ Lawnge some years ago and naturally I was super inquistitve. One thing he seems to be super proud of, is the amount of rock records he used to make that record. Indeed he was right, prior to 91, it was all about soul and funk samples. After that, you had 'stunt blunts and hip hop' among others that really dove in head first into the rock shit, but WISC was really the first rap record to make that sound viable.

btw... Lawnge is just about the coolest old-industry cat I've ever met. he was really appreciative and down to earth.

Phill_Most

Hey Phill,

Oh, then this negates my whole appreciation (since drum loops do sound natural, obviously). I assumed they were doin' some "kick-snare"-type programming. I thought they were on some Pete Rock "program light snares with heavy snares to mimic accents on certain snare notes to make the best sound like loops"-style programming in '91. I recognized most of the drum loops on there, I think they just chopped some of them to make them sound differently.

Peace,

Big Stacks from Kakalak

I would have to go back and examine each song carefully (which I'm not gonna do), but I really don't think there's much chopping going on there, either. I think it's just straight loops, holmes. Not a thing wrong with that, though... if it sounds good, it sounds good. Plus most of those loops still hadn't been used up to that point- not that that matters to me, but I know it does to a lot of folks. So don't withdraw your appreciation, son.... them beats is doo doo dope regardless!

PABLO

I played w/ Lawnge some years ago and naturally I was super inquistitve. One thing he seems to be super proud of, is the amount of rock records he used to make that record.

For real: Bubble Gum Machine, Mouth & Macneal, Jefferson Airplane, etc. was pretty advanced...and the amount of sample stacks on most of the tracks were rivaling Pete Rock's. Amazing, amazing album.

Junior

in my top 10 of all time hiphop LPs

Same here, maybe it shows my age but I think this still sounds fresh in it's own way today.

DJ_Enki

Hey Phill,

Oh, then this negates my whole appreciation (since drum loops do sound natural, obviously). I assumed they were doin' some "kick-snare"-type programming. I thought they were on some Pete Rock "program light snares with heavy snares to mimic accents on certain snare notes to make the best sound like loops"-style programming in '91. I recognized most of the drum loops on there, I think they just chopped some of them to make them sound differently.

Peace,

Big Stacks from Kakalak

I would have to go back and examine each song carefully (which I'm not gonna do), but I really don't think there's much chopping going on there, either. I think it's just straight loops, holmes. Not a thing wrong with that, though... if it sounds good, it sounds good. Plus most of those loops still hadn't been used up to that point- not that that matters to me, but I know it does to a lot of folks. So don't withdraw your appreciation, son.... them beats is doo doo dope regardless!

From what I've heard, it was pretty much all loops, and on top of that, people who worked on the album expressed a lot of admiration for how good Lawnge was at locking up his loops. I'm still a fan of drum loops to this day, and I still check out the production work on that album as inspiration--and not just for the drums, either, but also for how varied the tracks were and how many change-ups got put into the songs.

Hawkeye

Not all drums where loops. Some songs got programed drums. Like "Flava of the month" thats not the original loop, its programed.

I remeber a episode of Yo MTV Raps with Fab Five where he was with DITC and them cats. They where in a room with crates of records and Dres was there looking for records. And when Freddy came along and asked him whats up he said something like "Oh watch this record we used it for this and that" Than Freddy went on and at the end of the room is Showbiz and AG and a SP1200. Than They show Freddy a Beat on that SP.


So they where also down with DITC back than.



Peace
Hawkeye

Phill_Most

Not all drums where loops. Some songs got programed drums. Like "Flava of the month" thats not the original loop, its programed.

It's Joe Farrell. Are you familiar with that braek? Like I said before, there may be some slight choppage going on there- I'm not gonna go back and examine it closely. But it's basically a drum loop. Now Lawnge or whoever did that beat may have chopped the loop into pieces just to make it fit better into the bar (which was / is a common practice when dealing with samples), but for all intensive purposes (lolol) it's a drum loop. It's not like he just programmed his own original beat with a kick and a snare,

And btw, almost all of the NYC producer dudes from back in that era who were into the beats knew each other and hung out on some record schitt... one big fraternity you could say

Controller_7

I'm still a fan of drum loops to this day, and I still check out the production work on that album as inspiration--and not just for the drums, either, but also for how varied the tracks were and how many change-ups got put into the songs.

The production on this album is incredible. The layering and sample choices are really impressive. Bizarre Ride To The Pharcyde does the same thing for me. Amazing production with an incredible amount of layering that somehow really works and sounds so natural. I feel the same way about the first 3 De La albums. All of these records go beyond just the regular boom bap loop and drums and have so much texture. You can still listen to them these days and discover tiny little things that you may have never noticed before.

Going with what Phill said about the beat fraternity...It seems like they much have had so much fun. It's such a weird idea to think that most of the great groups from that time period were friends and were hanging out together. The creativity levels probably got pushed so much higher because they were all trying to impress eachother.

DrJoel

Not to derail this, but what's a prize czech on a sealed OG of this looking like in the '07?

jaymack

20 bucks?

soulmakossa

The production on this album is incredible. The layering and sample choices are really impressive. Bizarre Ride To The Pharcyde does the same thing for me. Amazing production with an incredible amount of layering that somehow really works and sounds so natural. I feel the same way about the first 3 De La albums[/b]

I agree, and I felt like you could hear the influence of Prince Paul on AWISC because Dres & Lawnge were using such rare records and original production style.

Here's a drum break I discovered years ago from my father's CD collection, I flipped when I realized it was the drums for "Similak Child"[/b]: Maceo Parker's "Mo Roots" CD on Verve Records.



I forget the exact song with the break on it, but I remember it's right at the start, you can take a listen here if you want: http://www.amazon.com/Mo-Roots-Maceo-Parker/dp/B0000046K3

tonyphrone

This album cant get enough props. It holds up really well with the best of the '91/92 records (one for all, low end, cypress hill, de la is dead, mecca and the soul brother,etc.) . One of my top 10 for sure!

Hawkeye

It's Joe Farrell. Are you familiar with that braek?

Yes I know that record and that break, and I know about the other songs sampling this, Artifacts, Rasco and so on. I know my breaks, dont worry Soulman.

Like I said before, there may be some slight choppage going on there- I'm not gonna go back and examine it closely. But it's basically a drum loop. Now Lawnge or whoever did that beat may have chopped the loop into pieces just to make it fit better into the bar (which was / is a common practice when dealing with samples), but for all intensive purposes (lolol) it's a drum loop. It's not like he just programmed his own original beat with a kick and a snare,

OK I now understand the diffrence you are making. Its not like sampling ONE bassdrum, ONE hihat and ONE snare and doing a pattern out of it.

Yes I agree that is not done here, here are more sounds used than just 3.

But some of the patterns are not the original patterns. Call me a nitpicker, but I would say that a drumloop is just a loop, if I start to re-arrange the pattern I start to program it.

So "Flava of the month" is not the original Joe Farrell loop. They re-programed the loop. But still it sounds a lot like a loop.

A lot of producers did additional programing on their loops, and they did it in a way that you can here it. And Mr.Lawnge did it in a way that sounded natural and PLAYED.

This LP is among the best and most sample complex LP's I know of in HipHop.

Other similar sample complex LPs are Pauls Boutique (yeah yeah, throw some tomatos at me), It Takes a Nation of Millions...., 3 Ft. High and Rising.

But this is one of the best LPs when it comes to produce ONE song out of more than two sources.

The only other LP that does this as perfect is De La Souls 3ft. High and rising and L.S.D. - Watch out for the third rail.

Here are some tunes from that LSD LP:

http://www.myspace.com/lsd3rdrail

And btw, almost all of the NYC producer dudes from back in that era who were into the beats knew each other and hung out on some record schitt... one big fraternity you could say

Thanks and excuse me that I'm with the culture my dear friend Phill.

I just wanted to share a nice memory that came into my 8000 miles away German mind.
Sorry for not being in Roosevelt Hotel back than to shake all the hands of those legends.
I had to read it on your column, I had to hear it on the radio and I had to watch it on a tv show, A to the K, A to the mother fuckin??? ziggy.



Peace
Hawkeye

DJ_Enki

Other similar sample complex LPs are Pauls Boutique (yeah yeah, throw some tomatos at me),

Shit, no tomatoes being thrown by me. I think PB still stands as one of the best-produced albums in general and one of the great achievements in sample-based music.

fredfades

one of my top 5 hiphop albums!

m_dejean

Whoa, Hawkeye, relax. The man was just offering a different perspective, not trying to "son" you or anything. No need to get surly.

I've always viewed those Black Sheep beats as good loop-layering as well. Perhaps chopped for better tightness control, but following the same patterns as the original sources. Those "Flavour Of The Month" drums sound like the original pattern to me, but I could be wrong. It's been a while since I've put it on. Great LP.

Phill_Most

It's Joe Farrell. Are you familiar with that braek?

Yes I know that record and that break, and I know about the other songs sampling this, Artifacts, Rasco and so on. I know my breaks, dont worry Soulman.

Okay.. well, I figured you did know it but I was just checking. I assume everybody knows stuff like that, but sometimes dudes don't know those things in 2007.

Like I said before, there may be some slight choppage going on there- I'm not gonna go back and examine it closely. But it's basically a drum loop. Now Lawnge or whoever did that beat may have chopped the loop into pieces just to make it fit better into the bar (which was / is a common practice when dealing with samples), but for all intensive purposes (lolol) it's a drum loop. It's not like he just programmed his own original beat with a kick and a snare,

OK I now understand the diffrence you are making. Its not like sampling ONE bassdrum, ONE hihat and ONE snare and doing a pattern out of it.

Yes I agree that is not done here, here are more sounds used than just 3.

But some of the patterns are not the original patterns. Call me a nitpicker, but I would say that a drumloop is just a loop, if I start to re-arrange the pattern I start to program it.

So "Flava of the month" is not the original Joe Farrell loop. They re-programed the loop. But still it sounds a lot like a loop.

A-ight... so I see i'm gonna have to listen to this record again, because I honestly don't even remember the drum loop sounding like it was chopped or anything. I remember it sounding on the Black Sheep record just like it sounded on the Joe Farrell record (as oppossed to something like, say, Primo's chop job of the Kool Is Back drums for "Come Clean"... that's an obvious chopping and re-programming of the drums, I don't remember Flavor Of The Month's drums being chopped in that way... maybe I'm wrong

And btw, almost all of the NYC producer dudes from back in that era who were into the beats knew each other and hung out on some record schitt... one big fraternity you could say

Thanks and excuse me that I'm with the culture my dear friend Phill.

I just wanted to share a nice memory that came into my 8000 miles away German mind.
Sorry for not being in Roosevelt Hotel back than to shake all the hands of those legends.
I had to read it on your column, I had to hear it on the radio and I had to watch it on a tv show, A to the K, A to the mother fuckin??? ziggy.

It's all good, holmes... wasn't trying to sound more real-schitt-than-thou, although I guess I am guilty of that sometimes. It's never intentional. Just trying to share some of what I've soaked up in my years of real-schittery with whoever is interested. I ain't always right... just giving my HO (honest opinion) for whatever it be worth

jaymack

wasn't trying to sound more real-schitt-than-thou, although I guess I am guilty of that sometimes.

but you are more real-shit-than-thou

Hawkeye

Is all good Phill, no problem. Sometimes on this board I'm a little bit nerved in the way we talk with each other, and all I can do is spread some ironic sauce on top.

But no problem, I'll still buy your records !!!!




Peace
Hawkeye

Phill_Most

wasn't trying to sound more real-schitt-than-thou, although I guess I am guilty of that sometimes.

but you are more real-shit-than-thou

i must admit this is true

sticky_dojah

But no problem, I'll still buy your records !!!!

Yeah, when is the next one gonna drop, phill? And will it have chopped or looped beats ?

Cosign on everything said...awisc is a really dope album and i remember the "flava of the month" video and them driving in the milk van that was such a breath of fresh air...and the LP intro is

Phill_Most

Is all good Phill, no problem. Sometimes on this board I'm a little bit nerved in the way we talk with each other, and all I can do is spread some ironic sauce on top.

But no problem, I'll still buy your records !!!!




Peace
Hawkeye

2, possibly 3[/b] NEW SCHITTS DROPPIN' SUMMER OF 2007... OLD MAN RAP AT IT's FINEST lololol!
MORE DETAILS COMING SOON

Mike_Bell

2, possibly 3[/b] NEW SCHITTS DROPPIN' SUMMER OF 2007... OLD MAN RAP AT IT's FINEST lololol!
MORE DETAILS COMING SOON