I never thought I'd be to the right of someone on an issue of race on Soulstrut but Frank - I can't roll with most of what you're trying to put across here.
1) What if this wasn't the Beastie Boys vs. James Newton but Diamond D vs. James Newton? I'm open to the argument that Afro-diasporic traditions in music do not necessarily fit well into a Eurocentric notion of intellectual property. The fact that drum breaks are not copyright-able, to me, is reflective of that double standard where melodies are presumed to be compositions but Stubblefield coming up with the "Funky Drummer" break is not. However, whether or not the Beasties are white is immaterial to the legal AND social issues at hand. You, of course, are free to feel otherwise but I really don't see the relationship at all. (Likewise, if Newton wasn't Black (and last I checked, there are quite a few flutists who weren't) that would also throw your argument out of the window.)
2) As someone who takes the notion of inequality seriously, it is of upmost importance to be attuned into CONTEXT. I'm sorry man but invoking Thurgood Marshall on a debate like this is way out of context and if anything, diminishes his legacy. James Newton - who I've had the honor of meeting in the past, and someone for whom I hold a great deal of respect - is not arguing for desegregation, the end of Jim Crow, the right to vote, an anti-lynching bill, or open and equal access to health care, employment, housing or the freedom NOT to get beat to death by police. A "win" for Newton doesn't benefit African Americans materially. It would have benefitted HIM. To elevate his legal battle beyond that is as hyperbolic as when Clarence Thomas said the Democrats were out to "lynch" him during his confirmation hearings. Those kind of loose comparisons does violence to the history and memory of what racial discrimination actually manifests.
It's not that I don't take the issue of cultural exploitation seriously - believe me, I do - but this isn't the case to offer up as the example. Newton lost because his SPECIFIC claim was weak and its weakness - as JP and others have pointed out - has very little to do with larger systemic inequality but rather, a more esoteric debate over what defines a "composition." Sure, cultural bias enters into that but Newton's case can't be conflated beyond what it is.
I wanted to put this baby to bed, but I noticed how your two points contradict one another. If ???Afro-diasporic traditions in music do not necessarily fit well into a Eurocentric notion of intellectual property??? then why isn???t setting a new precedent allowing opportunities to share in wealth and recognition afforded by composers of music in accepted [read: white] format similar to advancements championed by pioneers of civil rights in America? (i.e., Thurgood Marshall) That you pompous fuckers try to take ownership of a legacy is sad. One can be inspired in different ways by the same story.
So while Diamond and colleagues are not overtly racist, their actions are embedded within a cultural system that implicitly endorses a slave holding mentality. Therefore, I don???t think the merits Newton???s claim were explicitly hindered by his ancestry. But I do posit that the methods of his creative expression, its documentation and its proprietary status are foolishly undervalued in American society--specifically expressed through our justice system in this case. Being that America has a notorious history in its relations with black people, one can safely be suspicious. I???m more than suspicious and feel fine about that.
PS--"Cracker" was a slang term used by 19th Century Georgian slaves to refer to the slavemasters. If this were in fact, true, then the term would come directly from the cracking of the slavemaster's whip.(Dictionary of Afro-American Slang,)
This is all talk, Frank--none of it is really applicable to the facts of this case.
Really? No shit. I stated early that there are issues worth discussing related to this case (ethical, philosophical, cultural). But I like how you become the lawyer after all.
Please, I've been around music theorists for my entire life. I've had this very discussion multiple times and, inevitably, it leads to the same answer: You're wrong.
Jesus, you're a fucking twit. You'll have to do better that show off the music theorists' cum stains on your shirt to dismiss improvisation like that. I was playing music before you could even cry around any kind of fucking theorists.
That's right, I remember your last music theory piece: In the African Tree: Hip-hop's Roots in Free Jazz. How was that one met with the peer reviewers?
Scary kind of PC? Fuck you. You don't know me. You don't know my politics.
From what I've read of Francis[/b]
I'll school you the fuck up and down this board or anyware anytime you wanna talk politics. Fucker bitch, I spent a lot of time in DC. Bring it!
Yes, yes, you live in DC. I understand, racial and economic inequity, tearing apart at the very fabric of humanity, cats and dogs forever and always never able to share the same wing of the pet store.
We're all aware of how Washington is, and it's great that you have been active in following the local politics there. But I hate to drop this bomb on you, plenty of cities are like that - Cleveland, Detroit, even southern and western cities. And the ones that are "models" aren't even integrated to any degree. There's nothing unique about it. The same things you talk about I see here all the time. That's life. And while people may choose to stick to their own kind, I just don't think that type of situation applies here. Segregation was a deep seeded "moral"/societal issue. James Newton not getting paid for writing 3 notes in a row, especially in a case that is about 2000 cases after anything even remotely groundbreaking - I just don't see it. Newton's 3 notes aren't moving next door or being bussed to the neighborhood school. I just don't think anyone involved cares that much.
Sometimes the people who are most interested in destroying something are the ones who propagate it, simply by not letting it go.
So while Diamond and colleagues are not overtly racist, their actions are embedded within a cultural system that implicitly endorses a slave holding mentality.
This is a serious question.
If that's the case, what exactly would be the cultural implications in "African" music? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't a large piece of war for many African tribes being the ability to forcibly take POWs (slaves) for use as labor, or to be assimilated into the tribe?
So it's not like slavery is some European-only invention...
Scary kind of PC? Fuck you. You don't know me. You don't know my politics.
From what I've read of Francis[/b]
I'll school you the fuck up and down this board or anyware anytime you wanna talk politics. Fucker bitch, I spent a lot of time in DC. Bring it!
Yes, yes, you live in DC. I understand, racial and economic inequity, tearing apart at the very fabric of humanity, cats and dogs forever and always never able to share the same wing of the pet store.
We're all aware of how Washington is, and it's great that you have been active in following the local politics there. But I hate to drop this bomb on you, plenty of cities are like that - Cleveland, Detroit, even southern and western cities. And the ones that are "models" aren't even integrated to any degree. There's nothing unique about it. The same things you talk about I see here all the time. That's life. And while people may choose to stick to their own kind, I just don't think that type of situation applies here. Segregation was a deep seeded "moral"/societal issue. James Newton not getting paid for writing 3 notes in a row, especially in a case that is about 2000 cases after anything even remotely groundbreaking - I just don't see it. Newton's 3 notes aren't moving next door or being bussed to the neighborhood school. I just don't think anyone involved cares that much.
Sometimes the people who are most interested in destroying something are the ones who propagate it, simply by not letting it go.
I've admitted the Newton afro culture argument is a stretch along with other discussions related to art and culture (i.e. the continuum of African music in this country expressed by say hip hop and free jazz). These are very difficult subjective topics. But you mutherfuckers come off as conservative armchair anthropologists that would make a Heritage Foundation intern blush.
What gets my goat grafwriter, is that you suggest my political views are so entrenched that I ignore facts. You couldn't be further off the mark. You could say that by reading this thread, but if you've followed other political threads I've contributed to over years???I???m solid. Test me.
Comments
Really? No shit. I stated early that there are issues worth discussing related to this case (ethical, philosophical, cultural). But I like how you become the lawyer after all.
Jesus, you're a fucking twit. You'll have to do better that show off the music theorists' cum stains on your shirt to dismiss improvisation like that. I was playing music before you could even cry around any kind of fucking theorists.
From what I've read of Francis[/b]
Yes, yes, you live in DC. I understand, racial and economic inequity, tearing apart at the very fabric of humanity, cats and dogs forever and always never able to share the same wing of the pet store.
We're all aware of how Washington is, and it's great that you have been active in following the local politics there. But I hate to drop this bomb on you, plenty of cities are like that - Cleveland, Detroit, even southern and western cities. And the ones that are "models" aren't even integrated to any degree. There's nothing unique about it. The same things you talk about I see here all the time. That's life. And while people may choose to stick to their own kind, I just don't think that type of situation applies here. Segregation was a deep seeded "moral"/societal issue. James Newton not getting paid for writing 3 notes in a row, especially in a case that is about 2000 cases after anything even remotely groundbreaking - I just don't see it. Newton's 3 notes aren't moving next door or being bussed to the neighborhood school. I just don't think anyone involved cares that much.
Sometimes the people who are most interested in destroying something are the ones who propagate it, simply by not letting it go.
This is a serious question.
If that's the case, what exactly would be the cultural implications in "African" music? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't a large piece of war for many African tribes being the ability to forcibly take POWs (slaves) for use as labor, or to be assimilated into the tribe?
So it's not like slavery is some European-only invention...
I've admitted the Newton afro culture argument is a stretch along with other discussions related to art and culture (i.e. the continuum of African music in this country expressed by say hip hop and free jazz). These are very difficult subjective topics. But you mutherfuckers come off as conservative armchair anthropologists that would make a Heritage Foundation intern blush.
What gets my goat grafwriter, is that you suggest my political views are so entrenched that I ignore facts. You couldn't be further off the mark. You could say that by reading this thread, but if you've followed other political threads I've contributed to over years???I???m solid. Test me.