And? I don't see how this precludes ppl from taking it seriously.
Maybe not. But there's enough serious stuff out there to take seriously, so I choose to view my comic book movies like I'd view......a comic book.
MAN THAT BATMAN MOVIE SURE IS FUCKED UP. HOW DO YOU THINK ALL THOSE DOODS WHO HAD THEIR FACES MELTED OFF BY ACID AND TURNED INTO SUPER-VILLAINS FEEL AFTER WATCHING THAT?
you dont think there are UNIVERSAL THEMES that batman taps into that are worth discussing?
And? I don't see how this precludes ppl from taking it seriously.
Maybe not. But there's enough serious stuff out there to take seriously, so I choose to view my comic book movies like I'd view......a comic book.
MAN THAT BATMAN MOVIE SURE IS FUCKED UP. HOW DO YOU THINK ALL THOSE DOODS WHO HAD THEIR FACES MELTED OFF BY ACID AND TURNED INTO SUPER-VILLAINS FEEL AFTER WATCHING THAT?
you dont think there are UNIVERSAL THEMES that batman taps into that are worth discussing?
Just so we're on the same page, what universal themes are we discussing?
Hi. I didnt mean to start a ruckus here, but this is what I should have said in my original comment:
When I say "most people", I mean the Movie-Going American public. The same folks that probably aren't aware, nor do they care, that Spartans = Greeks (in 300) or Romans=Italians (Gladiator, Rome, etc). I was just saying that the subtext that alot of people are reading into 300 seems to be a little far-flung and is probably lost on the Movie-Going American public. I definetly took notice when I was watching, but I didnt let it get in the way of me enjoying a good action movie.
And as for the Persian-Iranian thing...this is the extent of my knowledge on the subject: A friends Dad fled Iran just after the revolution (as did a lot of exiles) and told me that when they (exiles) got to the US or other Western Countries, they started refering to themselves as "Persians" as opposed to "Iranians" because at the time, the US and Iran werent on good terms at all (hostage crisis, etc)and you could get by alot easier in the US being Persian as opposed to being Iranian. This is also something that I think the Movie-Going American public isn't aware of.
Sorry if anyone took offense at anything I said. I wasnt trying to be elitist. Just trying to bring up a point.
yeah, i dont see much political subtext in a movie thats about a massive battle. I guess you could really work hard and put one to it, but thats pretty pointless.
Why not put batman against terrorists? I think that sounds cool.
I would be willing to bet that most people arent even aware that Persian=Iranian.
Really?
Maybe they're thinkin' Parisian... heh
I hate these types of posts. Everyone here just assumes that "most people" are so dumb that they know nothing, which makes the poster look like he see's himself as superior. Than its taken as a truth and ran with by the guy who responds and afterwards it's interpreted as a soulstrut truth.
sounds like some type of mental bully shit to me
not to mentally bully anyone, but you live in LA, Guz. I think it's safe to say in large swaths of the country folks would not make a Persian-Iran mental connection.
I think it would be safe to say that most Americans, country folk or otherwise, wouldn't make a Persian-Iran connection. Its not like Americans are terribly informed about historical events in their own country, let alone ancient Greece.
yeah, i dont see much political subtext in a movie thats about a massive battle. I guess you could really work hard and put one to it, but thats pretty pointless.
I disagree totally; i mean it almost seems like this film is intent on making some kind of statement.
If you're going to link certain characteristics to a certain society, it would probably be important to say why they have these characteristics, don't you think?
And the point of them having fascist tendencies (and I'm fairly sure you stole that idea from The Onion) was to fend off a barabaric, cruel, even more unjust society, the Persians.
So, again, are you seriously arguing that the makers of this movie were trying to promote fascism?
If you're going to link certain characteristics to a certain society, it would probably be important to say why they have these characteristics, don't you think?
And the point of them having fascist tendencies (and I'm fairly sure you stole that idea from The Onion) was to fend off a barabaric, cruel, even more unjust society, the Persians.
So, again, are you seriously arguing that the makers of this movie were trying to promote fascism?
1. you are fairly wrong that i 'stole this idea' from the onion. it seems pretty evident from watching the movie. You should also know that the onion isn't the only place this criticism has come up (i haven't actually read the onion's review...) 2. suddenly conservatives become cultural relativists! What is this 'lesser of two evils" fascism you support??? 3. I don't know if they were consciously aware of it nor is it relevent; it is a film that argues vehemently in favor of fascism and feeling over freedom and thought, no matter how much they pretend to be defending the latter. This has a shuddering parallel w/ current day conservatism. I don't think you have to read very deeply into this film to see these things.
If you're going to link certain characteristics to a certain society, it would probably be important to say why they have these characteristics, don't you think?
And the point of them having fascist tendencies (and I'm fairly sure you stole that idea from The Onion) was to fend off a barabaric, cruel, even more unjust society, the Persians.
So, again, are you seriously arguing that the makers of this movie were trying to promote fascism?
1. you are fairly wrong that i 'stole this idea' from the onion. it seems pretty evident from watching the movie. You should also know that the onion isn't the only place this criticism has come up (i haven't actually read the onion's review...)
2. suddenly conservatives become cultural relativists! What is this 'lesser of two evils" fascism you support??? 3. I don't know if they were consciously aware of it nor is it relevent; it is a film that argues vehemently in favor of fascism and feeling over freedom and thought, no matter how much they pretend to be defending the latter. This has a shuddering parallel w/ current day conservatism. I don't think you have to read very deeply into this film to see these things.
So the makers of the film weren't consciously aware of promoting fascism, but they were arguing in favor of it?
yeah, i dont see much political subtext in a movie thats about a massive battle. I guess you could really work hard and put one to it, but thats pretty pointless.
I disagree totally; i mean it almost seems like this film is intent on making some kind of statement.
It may well be that the director had grandiose notions about the statement his film would make, but the fact remains that it was a ridiculously stupid film. Yes, the fight scenes were kick ass and I had a blast watching it, but trying to parse a message about loyalty, fascism, sexuality, democracy, citizenship, race, and whatever from this camp-fest is like analysing the ideological implications of Doom, Punisher Comics, or bizzo's photographs of drunken phish fans puking in Vermont.
Come on people! The men were wearing teensy leather undies and spouted monologues as if there was a 20 cent listing day on ebay and beatdawg was selling off some of his hyperbole ('nough respect to beatdawg). There was a guy with swords for arms and another with a donkey head! Hmm, perhaps that's a comment on the sorry state of disability rights in America (or maybe a fascist plea to euthanise freaks with swords for arms). Xerxes chopped off the heads of his generals when they failed him. Could that be a hint to Bush? Etc ect ad nauseam..
If you're going to link certain characteristics to a certain society, it would probably be important to say why they have these characteristics, don't you think?
And the point of them having fascist tendencies (and I'm fairly sure you stole that idea from The Onion) was to fend off a barabaric, cruel, even more unjust society, the Persians.
So, again, are you seriously arguing that the makers of this movie were trying to promote fascism?
1. you are fairly wrong that i 'stole this idea' from the onion. it seems pretty evident from watching the movie. You should also know that the onion isn't the only place this criticism has come up (i haven't actually read the onion's review...)
2. suddenly conservatives become cultural relativists! What is this 'lesser of two evils" fascism you support??? 3. I don't know if they were consciously aware of it nor is it relevent; it is a film that argues vehemently in favor of fascism and feeling over freedom and thought, no matter how much they pretend to be defending the latter. This has a shuddering parallel w/ current day conservatism. I don't think you have to read very deeply into this film to see these things.
So the makers of the film weren't consciously aware of promoting fascism, but they were arguing in favor of it?
Dude, Deej...pack it in. I don't know if you realize this, but you are arguing with a DRAMA teacher.
3. I don't know if they were consciously aware of it nor is it relevent; it is a film that argues vehemently in favor of fascism and feeling over freedom and thought, no matter how much they pretend to be defending the latter. This has a shuddering parallel w/ current day conservatism. I don't think you have to read very deeply into this film to see these things.
Dude, this argument is premised on the belief that people will watch this film and be left wanting to emulate the Spartans. I don't know about you, but no thanks to being forced to traipse around in the snow and spear red-eyed wolves, being forced to beet your peers, spending days in the rain in undies and brass hats, and not being allowed to run away when, hello, running away makes a whole of lot of sense. You can also keep the men who are incapable of expressing affection. Seriously, who doesn't recoil at the Spartans? There's reason "spartan" has the meaning it does today. Sign me up for Xerxes and his kooky lesbians! He also had a great voice. Hell, I'd run to Athens and hang out with the philosophers and drink wine at symposia. They had the right idea.
Yeah, that was definitely the message. Americans are going to fall in love with a culture where babies are judged and then if they're seen weak they get thrown off the cliff. Then the boys are taken away from their mothers and beat the shit out of to make them strong, so they can grow up to be warriors where the ultimate dream is to die a magnificent death.
And apparently those parts of the story were actually based upon real Spartan culture. Its such a shame that Western civilization took after Athens rather than Sparta now that you look at it!
I remembered this study coming out right before the war. While not directly related to whether Americans can tell that Persians are Iranians, it does point to a general lack of world knowledge and geography amongst young Americans.
I'm still looking for someone to explain to me how a Hollywood movie based (And almost a complete copy) on a comic book (Which was written in 1998, 3 years before 9/11 and the war on terror). Which was based on another Hollywood film from 1962, which is based on the Battle of Thermopylae. Is a declaration of war on Iranians?
im pretty sure that most of todays Iranians are not decendents of the ancient Persions.
The language spoken by the majority is Persian and that's how they define themselves culturally. I think this is shit stirring from Newsweek - the Ayan Nu newspaper is not a significant publication but Newsweek is still talking this up as if the whole country is boiling over because of this film. Irresponsible and misleading.
I remembered this study coming out right before the war. While not directly related to whether Americans can tell that Persians are Iranians, it does point to a general lack of world knowledge and geography amongst young Americans.
I'm still looking for someone to explain to me how a Hollywood movie based (And almost a complete copy) on a comic book (Which was written in 1998, 3 years before 9/11 and the war on terror). Which was based on another Hollywood film from 1962, which is based on the Battle of Thermopylae. Is a declaration of war on Iranians?
If Walt Disney and Ariel Dorfman (exclusive of each other) can use Donald Duck to discuss imperialism, socialism and communism , I think it's possible for people to see anti-Iranian sub-text in 300.
And as for the Persian-Iranian thing...this is the extent of my knowledge on the subject: A friends Dad fled Iran just after the revolution (as did a lot of exiles) and told me that when they (exiles) got to the US or other Western Countries, they started refering to themselves as "Persians" as opposed to "Iranians" because at the time, the US and Iran werent on good terms at all (hostage crisis, etc)and you could get by alot easier in the US being Persian as opposed to being Iranian.
I understand this, but it reinforces and perpetuates the idea that it is not good to be Iranian and that it is something to be ashamed of. It has not been easy for a lot of people to be who they really are and get by in the States, Europe, Canada and trying to mask it does not solve the problem. I can understand if one's life or their family is in danger.
As far Hollywood declaring war on Iranians - get in line!
Comments
Oh Lawd...
Just so we're on the same page, what universal themes are we discussing?
Utility belts. Duh.
I didnt mean to start a ruckus here, but this is what I should have said in my original comment:
When I say "most people", I mean the Movie-Going American public.
The same folks that probably aren't aware, nor do they care,
that Spartans = Greeks (in 300) or Romans=Italians (Gladiator, Rome, etc).
I was just saying that the subtext that alot of people are reading into 300 seems to be a little far-flung and is probably lost on the Movie-Going American public. I definetly took notice when I was watching, but I didnt let it get in the way of me enjoying a good action movie.
And as for the Persian-Iranian thing...this is the extent of my knowledge on the subject:
A friends Dad fled Iran just after the revolution (as did a lot of exiles) and told me that when they (exiles) got to the US or other Western Countries, they started refering to themselves as "Persians" as opposed to "Iranians" because at the time, the US and Iran werent on good terms at all (hostage crisis, etc)and you could get by alot easier in the US being Persian as opposed to being Iranian. This is also something that I think the Movie-Going American public isn't aware of.
Sorry if anyone took offense at anything I said.
I wasnt trying to be elitist.
Just trying to bring up a point.
Why not put batman against terrorists? I think that sounds cool.
I think it would be safe to say that most Americans, country folk or otherwise, wouldn't make a Persian-Iran connection. Its not like Americans are terribly informed about historical events in their own country, let alone ancient Greece.
I disagree totally; i mean it almost seems like this film is intent on making some kind of statement.
Greeks were, like, totally gay.
Wait, now I'm confused. The Persians were Greeks? Or were the Spartans?
And the point of them having fascist tendencies (and I'm fairly sure you stole that idea from The Onion) was to fend off a barabaric, cruel, even more unjust society, the Persians.
So, again, are you seriously arguing that the makers of this movie were trying to promote fascism?
2. suddenly conservatives become cultural relativists! What is this 'lesser of two evils" fascism you support???
3. I don't know if they were consciously aware of it nor is it relevent; it is a film that argues vehemently in favor of fascism and feeling over freedom and thought, no matter how much they pretend to be defending the latter. This has a shuddering parallel w/ current day conservatism. I don't think you have to read very deeply into this film to see these things.
So the makers of the film weren't consciously aware of promoting fascism, but they were arguing in favor of it?
It may well be that the director had grandiose notions about the statement his film would make, but the fact remains that it was a ridiculously stupid film. Yes, the fight scenes were kick ass and I had a blast watching it, but trying to parse a message about loyalty, fascism, sexuality, democracy, citizenship, race, and whatever from this camp-fest is like analysing the ideological implications of Doom, Punisher Comics, or bizzo's photographs of drunken phish fans puking in Vermont.
Come on people! The men were wearing teensy leather undies and spouted monologues as if there was a 20 cent listing day on ebay and beatdawg was selling off some of his hyperbole ('nough respect to beatdawg). There was a guy with swords for arms and another with a donkey head! Hmm, perhaps that's a comment on the sorry state of disability rights in America (or maybe a fascist plea to euthanise freaks with swords for arms). Xerxes chopped off the heads of his generals when they failed him. Could that be a hint to Bush? Etc ect ad nauseam..
The greeks were fascist?
Dude, Deej...pack it in. I don't know if you realize this, but you are arguing with a DRAMA teacher.
Know when to fold them, man.
Dude, this argument is premised on the belief that people will watch this film and be left wanting to emulate the Spartans. I don't know about you, but no thanks to being forced to traipse around in the snow and spear red-eyed wolves, being forced to beet your peers, spending days in the rain in undies and brass hats, and not being allowed to run away when, hello, running away makes a whole of lot of sense. You can also keep the men who are incapable of expressing affection. Seriously, who doesn't recoil at the Spartans? There's reason "spartan" has the meaning it does today. Sign me up for Xerxes and his kooky lesbians! He also had a great voice. Hell, I'd run to Athens and hang out with the philosophers and drink wine at symposia. They had the right idea.
Yeah, that was definitely the message. Americans are going to fall in love with a culture where babies are judged and then if they're seen weak they get thrown off the cliff. Then the boys are taken away from their mothers and beat the shit out of to make them strong, so they can grow up to be warriors where the ultimate dream is to die a magnificent death.
And apparently those parts of the story were actually based upon real Spartan culture. Its such a shame that Western civilization took after Athens rather than Sparta now that you look at it!
I remembered this study coming out right before the war. While not directly related to whether Americans can tell that Persians are Iranians, it does point to a general lack of world knowledge and geography amongst young Americans.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/
This was a study down by the National Geographic society right before the Iraq war in 2002. It tested young Americans between 18 and 24.
Some of the findings:
87% couldn't find Iraq on a map even though the U.S. was about to go to war
83% couldn't find Afghanistan on a map even though we'd just gone to war
70% couldn't find New Jersey
49% couldn't find New York
The language spoken by the majority is Persian and that's how they define themselves culturally. I think this is shit stirring from Newsweek - the Ayan Nu newspaper is not a significant publication but Newsweek is still talking this up as if the whole country is boiling over because of this film. Irresponsible and misleading.
Was this the survey where 20% thought the US should invade Australia next?
If Walt Disney and Ariel Dorfman (exclusive of each other) can use Donald Duck to discuss imperialism, socialism and communism , I think it's possible for people to see anti-Iranian sub-text in 300.
I understand this, but it reinforces and perpetuates the idea that it is not good to be Iranian and that it is something to be ashamed of. It has not been easy for a lot of people to be who they really are and get by in the States, Europe, Canada and trying to mask it does not solve the problem. I can understand if one's life or their family is in danger.
As far Hollywood declaring war on Iranians - get in line!