I don't think labels like Embroy and Rocket really count because they were more like vanity imprints that parent labels let artist play with. Whereas T-Neck or Windy C were independent labels that existed withorwithout the distributor.
Just trying to keep it manageable.
Yeah I'd omit major label subsidiaries as well. The reason I wouldn't put like, Vortex up there.
I don't think labels like Embroy and Rocket really count because they were more like vanity imprints that parent labels let artist play with. Whereas T-Neck or Windy C were independent labels that existed withorwithout the distributor.
Just trying to keep it manageable.
Yeah I'd omit major label subsidiaries as well. The reason I wouldn't put like, Vortex up there.
Then you'd have to omit T-Neck (distributed first by Buddah, then CBS) and Windy C (Cameo-Parkway) as well. In the case of Curtis Mayfield, even though he was very hands-on with all his labels, he always had backing from a larger company. Even Curtom went through four of them.
I don't think labels like Embroy and Rocket really count because they were more like vanity imprints that parent labels let artist play with. Whereas T-Neck or Windy C were independent labels that existed withorwithout the distributor.
Just trying to keep it manageable.
Yeah I'd omit major label subsidiaries as well. The reason I wouldn't put like, Vortex up there.
Then you'd have to omit T-Neck (distributed first by Buddah, then CBS) and Windy C (Cameo-Parkway) as well. In the case of Curtis Mayfield, even though he was very hands-on with all his labels, he always had backing from a larger company. Even Curtom went through four of them.
That's what makes Curtom independant. It exsists as Curtis label, he just used majors as distributors. The other labels I mentioned weren't just distributed by majors, they were owned by majors who allowed artists to run them.
I agree with you here. vortex, embryo don't really count.
Curtis was one of the ones i was forgetting. when was that, like early to mid 60s?
i think another one i was forgetting was Harry Partch- wasn't 'Gate 5' his own label? from what i can tell, he had records coming out on there as early as 1953. i know this is treading dangerously close to 'take that sh*t to weird records that suck dot com' (although Partch really really doesn't suck)
i still feel like there's other early ones i'm forgetting.
i do know that some jazz musicians from my hometown of Pittsburgh had records out on their own labels before 1970, like Gene Ludwig, Frank Cunimondo, Walt Harper, Harold Betters. I'm hypothesizing that these guys were generally a little ahead of the whole indy-jazz-label curve as rep'd by Strata East, Tribe, and those ones that Ashcrock mentioned (although i admittedly don't know anything about them either )
That's what makes Curtom independant. It exsists as Curtis label, he just used majors as distributors. The other labels I mentioned weren't just distributed by majors, they were owned by majors who allowed artists to run them.
This topis is interesting to me. Thanks to everyone for contributing. I've been doing similar research, on independent labels that predate the '80s model still operating today. I put most pre-80s independent labels into two general categories:
1. Celebrity/Subsidiary[/b]. That is, labels that were run as independents (with subsidizing and/or major-backed distribution) by someone who enjoyed a certain level of popularity, which allowed them, in most cases, to run the label as they saw fit.
2. Private/Vanity[/b]. Those records that were made independent of everything. Generally not a real label in that it didn't operate to release records as much as it operated to release a record, no distribution, nothing much beyond the impetus to release the record. This would also include those vanity labels, such as Century, who pressed one-offs or small quantity for churches, school bands, Mingering Mike, etc.
Now, I would argue that these two categories don't necessarily fit in the independent paradigm. The entertainment industry is a profit-driven enterprise. Began as a vertical monopoly with all components regulated by the bottom line. The celebrity labels rely on the reach of major labels, while the private labels exist for a singular purpose and often have no network or longevity.
The independent model began not as a competition to the profit-based majors, but in rejection of them. The point was not to make money, it was to release records. The lack of contractual obligations, business managers, attorneys, A&R, producers is a testament to the differing mindset. While it's obvious that an independent label needs to make money to stay in business, it is not the reason for business. Just as breathing is necessary for life, but not the reason for life.
With all that, I've found very few labels that operated prior to the 1980s on the independent model we know today. Most of which had a very specific reason for releasing records, which usually had little to do with music, or profit.
Can you think of any pre-80s independent labels that fit the independent model of the '80s?
Curtis was one of the ones i was forgetting. when was that, like early to mid 60s?
The earliest Curtis Mayfield-owned labels I can think of are from the mid-sixties. Sort of on the same tangent, Jerry Butler had Fountain (dist. by Stax around '69-70 or so, then revived in the eighties as a complete indie) and Syl Johnson had Shama (dist. by Atlantic around '69-70 or so, then revived off and on through the seventies and eighties as a complete indie).
i still feel like there's other early ones i'm forgetting.
The Pharaohs and Scarab Records...and on the rock side, the New Colony Six and Sentar Records...even though Sentar had distribution from larger labels, when the material was reissued I believe the NC6, or at least one of the members, held the rights.
technically, although Davis did rise to the vice-presidency of Segue, i wouldn't say he ran it. Although he did run Tomorrow International, which put out 'IF' and a couple others
1. Celebrity/Subsidiary[/b]. That is, labels that were run as independents (with subsidizing and/or major-backed distribution) by someone who enjoyed a certain level of popularity, which allowed them, in most cases, to run the label as they saw fit.
2. Private/Vanity[/b]. Those records that were made independent of everything. Generally not a real label in that it didn't operate to release records as much as it operated to release a record, no distribution, nothing much beyond the impetus to release the record. This would also include those vanity labels, such as Century, who pressed one-offs or small quantity for churches, school bands, Mingering Mike, etc.
So where do the Tribes and Strata Easts fit in here? Category 1? Did they have subsidiary or major-backed distribution? Doesn't seem like they would fit in #2 because Strata East, at least, had some level of distribution (iirc) although not that of a major-backed deal like Curtom; it also had a catalog of respectable size for what it was (i.e. not just 'a' record or 2). maybe some more examples would help clear this up for us
With all that, I've found very few labels that operated prior to the 1980s on the independent model we know today. Most of which had a very specific reason for releasing records, which usually had little to do with music, or profit.
It sounds like you're saying that most pre-1980 indy labels released records for reasons OTHER than music or profit. So then what WERE their reasons? surely they weren't all tax write-offs? i find that a bit hard to swallow; seems like a lot of these guys just wanted to get their *music* out there.
1. Celebrity/Subsidiary[/b]. That is, labels that were run as independents (with subsidizing and/or major-backed distribution) by someone who enjoyed a certain level of popularity, which allowed them, in most cases, to run the label as they saw fit.
2. Private/Vanity[/b]. Those records that were made independent of everything. Generally not a real label in that it didn't operate to release records as much as it operated to release a record, no distribution, nothing much beyond the impetus to release the record. This would also include those vanity labels, such as Century, who pressed one-offs or small quantity for churches, school bands, Mingering Mike, etc.
So where do the Tribes and Strata Easts fit in here? Category 1? Did they have subsidiary or major-backed distribution? Doesn't seem like they would fit in #2 because Strata East, at least, had some level of distribution (iirc) although not that of a major-backed deal like Curtom; it also had a catalog of respectable size for what it was (i.e. not just 'a' record or 2).
I'm assuming that Strata-East would fit in category #2...I think that's why Brother To Brother had the hit with "The Bottle," because Strata-East didn't have the juice to release Gil Scott-Heron's version as a single, or take the album it came from any farther than it got.
Comments
Yeah I'd omit major label subsidiaries as well. The reason I wouldn't put like, Vortex up there.
Then you'd have to omit T-Neck (distributed first by Buddah, then CBS) and Windy C (Cameo-Parkway) as well. In the case of Curtis Mayfield, even though he was very hands-on with all his labels, he always had backing from a larger company. Even Curtom went through four of them.
That's what makes Curtom independant. It exsists as Curtis label, he just used majors as distributors. The other labels I mentioned weren't just distributed by majors, they were owned by majors who allowed artists to run them.
I agree with you here. vortex, embryo don't really count.
Curtis was one of the ones i was forgetting. when was that, like early to mid 60s?
i think another one i was forgetting was Harry Partch- wasn't 'Gate 5' his own label? from what i can tell, he had records coming out on there as early as 1953. i know this is treading dangerously close to 'take that sh*t to weird records that suck dot com' (although Partch really really doesn't suck)
i still feel like there's other early ones i'm forgetting.
i do know that some jazz musicians from my hometown of Pittsburgh had records out on their own labels before 1970, like Gene Ludwig, Frank Cunimondo, Walt Harper, Harold Betters. I'm hypothesizing that these guys were generally a little ahead of the whole indy-jazz-label curve as rep'd by Strata East, Tribe, and those ones that Ashcrock mentioned (although i admittedly don't know anything about them either
9 Winds (Vinnie Golia)
Ogun (Harry Miller)
Unit Core (Cecil Taylor--one record?)
This topis is interesting to me. Thanks to everyone for contributing. I've been doing similar research, on independent labels that predate the '80s model still operating today. I put most pre-80s independent labels into two general categories:
1. Celebrity/Subsidiary[/b]. That is, labels that were run as independents (with subsidizing and/or major-backed distribution) by someone who enjoyed a certain level of popularity, which allowed them, in most cases, to run the label as they saw fit.
2. Private/Vanity[/b]. Those records that were made independent of everything. Generally not a real label in that it didn't operate to release records as much as it operated to release a record, no distribution, nothing much beyond the impetus to release the record. This would also include those vanity labels, such as Century, who pressed one-offs or small quantity for churches, school bands, Mingering Mike, etc.
Now, I would argue that these two categories don't necessarily fit in the independent paradigm. The entertainment industry is a profit-driven enterprise. Began as a vertical monopoly with all components regulated by the bottom line. The celebrity labels rely on the reach of major labels, while the private labels exist for a singular purpose and often have no network or longevity.
The independent model began not as a competition to the profit-based majors, but in rejection of them. The point was not to make money, it was to release records. The lack of contractual obligations, business managers, attorneys, A&R, producers is a testament to the differing mindset. While it's obvious that an independent label needs to make money to stay in business, it is not the reason for business. Just as breathing is necessary for life, but not the reason for life.
With all that, I've found very few labels that operated prior to the 1980s on the independent model we know today. Most of which had a very specific reason for releasing records, which usually had little to do with music, or profit.
Can you think of any pre-80s independent labels that fit the independent model of the '80s?
An example:
The earliest Curtis Mayfield-owned labels I can think of are from the mid-sixties. Sort of on the same tangent, Jerry Butler had Fountain (dist. by Stax around '69-70 or so, then revived in the eighties as a complete indie) and Syl Johnson had Shama (dist. by Atlantic around '69-70 or so, then revived off and on through the seventies and eighties as a complete indie).
The Pharaohs and Scarab Records...and on the rock side, the New Colony Six and Sentar Records...even though Sentar had distribution from larger labels, when the material was reissued I believe the NC6, or at least one of the members, held the rights.
Mondo(frank cunimondo)
haha
WASSAP
technically, although Davis did rise to the vice-presidency of Segue, i wouldn't say he ran it. Although he did run Tomorrow International, which put out 'IF' and a couple others
So where do the Tribes and Strata Easts fit in here? Category 1? Did they have subsidiary or major-backed distribution? Doesn't seem like they would fit in #2 because Strata East, at least, had some level of distribution (iirc) although not that of a major-backed deal like Curtom; it also had a catalog of respectable size for what it was (i.e. not just 'a' record or 2).
maybe some more examples would help clear this up for us
It sounds like you're saying that most pre-1980 indy labels released records for reasons OTHER than music or profit. So then what WERE their reasons? surely they weren't all tax write-offs?
i find that a bit hard to swallow; seems like a lot of these guys just wanted to get their *music* out there.
I'm assuming that Strata-East would fit in category #2...I think that's why Brother To Brother had the hit with "The Bottle," because Strata-East didn't have the juice to release Gil Scott-Heron's version as a single, or take the album it came from any farther than it got.
OK, this should be on the list. It had some jazz and McPeek certainly had jazz chops, but as everyone knows it also release The Guess Who.