nonetheless I'm quite sure both Saadiq and Dre are extremely popular in Texas. But as an 'outsider' I don't know for sure! Why don't you tell us harvey
nonetheless I'm quite sure both Saadiq and Dre are extremely popular in Texas. But as an 'outsider' I don't know for sure! Why don't you tell us harvey
You do not deserve this information.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
there absolutely is. Someone living within a culture that, for example, perpetrates female circumsision might have a less 'valuable' opinion about that ritual than someone who lives outside that culture.
Horrible example.
I'm not saying that there aren't insights that, living in Texas and hanging out w/ Texas rappers, an 'insider' might have that others don't. I'm saying placing a primacy on that experience over all others is foolhardy. I don't have to read your articles to know that I'd rather read Kelefa Sanneh's pieces in the Times over your obsession with Z-Ro's authentic blues-rap stylings.
Even though you're about to call me out for doing this sort of thing, I just can't help myself...
You would rather read about Texas rap from the New York Times because you are a culture-vulture.
The world does not revolve around texas for most people in the world, and they don't have to obsess over the culture of texas in order to appreciate aspects of said culture.
Who ever said obsess? The word is respect.
Once again, since you seem to see this whole argument in either-you're-with-us-or-against-us terms, I am not advocating lazy journalism; simply suggesting that the primacy you give to 'being a part of the culture' is about as detached from the reality of listening to music as you or KRS-1 can get. (I mean think about this - speaking of ppl questioning your 'realness' - even KRS-1, an inarguably significant hip-hop innovator, doesn't get to sidestep the fact that no matter how much he advocates his harveycanal-eque exclusionary view of 'hip-hop culture' people everywhere think the dude is nuts nowadays.)
Usually, culture-vultures grow up without a culture of their own, therefore they see no problem cherry-picking their preferred pieces of the cultures of others in order to Frankenstein some semblnce of culture for themselves.
I myself grew up in the Creole/Mardi Gras culture of New Orleans, of which music was a highly functional facet. KRS grew up in the hip-hop culture of the South Bronx. We're 2 people , Americans even, who understand what pre-McDonald's culture is all about. Rather than just dismissing us as quacks based on our ideas of culture alone, you should try getting off of your uppity horse long enough to learn a lil something.
Dude, the only one being anything like presumptive in this argument is you. When people disagree with you, you criticize everything about them but the content of their argument - oh i disagree about Devin so it must be because i have a nyc-centric state of mind, or I'm from the north, or i'm not a part of 'the culture' or whatever.
So you're mad that I skip to the chase of identifying reasons why people say what they say instead of simply sticking to what they say alone? You little dudes are the worst in that you think you can manipulate the entire world with your ever-shifty words, as if no one can see your actual motivations written across your forehead.
You are the one presuming that an argument isn't legimate because it doesn't agree with your worldview. Could it somehow a SPECIFIC NYC-centric houston record COULD be better than a SPECIFIC Houston-centric houston record, or that even the fact that a houston record is trying to sound NYC might make it a more interesting record as a result? (Just like I think that Masta Ace's "Born to Roll" trying to sound like a non-NYC record makes it a more interesting record as a result)?
It's possible, but we all know that Mr. Scarface Is Back is still a better record than The Fix.
I'm willing to engage with someone's ideas but when you turn it into personal attacks yr not doing discussion any service. Your whole worldview is suffocatingly limited and makes for such a dreary musical experience.
Yeah, no one on this site ever engages in personal attacks when it comes to me.
And you know next to jackshit about my "worldview". But of course you think you know it all, so I suppose my "worldview" falls within your jurisdiction.
I think Houston sounds like lots of things. Unlike you, I am aware that Houston's musical scene does not exist in a vacuum and has been influenced by many different styles of music over the years, and that the implication that Devin's first solo album is so distinctly Houston is the reason non-Houston people hate it is something you've made up in your own damn mindgarden.
1. You aren't telling me shit about the Houston sound that I don't already know firsthand.
2. I don't think anyone hates Devin's first album. I just know that one of the primary reasons why so many proclaim his second album as his best is because it was their entry point to Devin by way of DJ Premier being on it. It's turned into this rvisionist history where The Dude and especially the Odd Squad album didn't really exist, except as some footnote that should only be kept in Texas-specific memory banks.
Have you even asked me yet why I like the second Devin album more than the first? No, you just jumped to a conclusion because it makes you feel better about yourself.
OK, I'll play...why do you like the 2nd album better?
there absolutely is. Someone living within a culture that, for example, perpetrates female circumsision might have a less 'valuable' opinion about that ritual than someone who lives outside that culture.
Horrible example.
Why? People make judgement calls on shit outside their realm of experience or culture all the time; you're like the ultimate cultural relativist here. Oh but wait time to backpedal - you just mean they should RESPECT the culture, you never intended to suggest that they shouldn't take from it what they wanted or express their own interpretations, right?
I'm not saying that there aren't insights that, living in Texas and hanging out w/ Texas rappers, an 'insider' might have that others don't. I'm saying placing a primacy on that experience over all others is foolhardy. I don't have to read your articles to know that I'd rather read Kelefa Sanneh's pieces in the Times over your obsession with Z-Ro's authentic blues-rap stylings.
Even though you're about to call me out for doing this sort of thing, I just can't help myself...
You would rather read about Texas rap from the New York Times because you are a culture-vulture.
No, I'd rather read about it from an insightful writer who has some PERSPECTIVE than a self-hating hippie cornball who thinks he is judge jury and executioner on all things texas rap.
The world does not revolve around texas for most people in the world, and they don't have to obsess over the culture of texas in order to appreciate aspects of said culture.
Who ever said obsess? The word is respect.
I'd say requiring people to know the details of texas barbecue in order to appreciate trae counts as 'obsessing'
Once again, since you seem to see this whole argument in either-you're-with-us-or-against-us terms, I am not advocating lazy journalism; simply suggesting that the primacy you give to 'being a part of the culture' is about as detached from the reality of listening to music as you or KRS-1 can get. (I mean think about this - speaking of ppl questioning your 'realness' - even KRS-1, an inarguably significant hip-hop innovator, doesn't get to sidestep the fact that no matter how much he advocates his harveycanal-eque exclusionary view of 'hip-hop culture' people everywhere think the dude is nuts nowadays.)
Usually, culture-vultures grow up without a culture of their own, therefore they see no problem cherry-picking their preferred pieces of the cultures of others in order to Frankenstein some semblnce of culture for themselves.
I myself grew up in the Creole/Mardi Gras culture of New Orleans, of which music was a highly functional facet. KRS grew up in the hip-hop culture of the South Bronx. We're 2 people , Americans even, who understand what pre-McDonald's culture is all about. Rather than just dismissing us as quacks based on our ideas of culture alone, you should try getting off of your uppity horse long enough to learn a lil something.
haha thats cute. First off dude, and i mean this entirely seriously - i do try to learn things from you! I just have to constantly filter through the bullshit, which is a pain in the ass. I don't question that you know more about texas rap and there is shit that i would love to learn more about. I just don't appreciate the unearned snobbery and condescension.
further, i think you need to acknowledge that whatever culture you were raised in, your ideas about that culture are not neccessarily correct! Thats what I was using KRS-1 for.
Dude, the only one being anything like presumptive in this argument is you. When people disagree with you, you criticize everything about them but the content of their argument - oh i disagree about Devin so it must be because i have a nyc-centric state of mind, or I'm from the north, or i'm not a part of 'the culture' or whatever.
So you're mad that I skip to the chase of identifying reasons why people say what they say instead of simply sticking to what they say alone? You little dudes are the worst in that you think you can manipulate the entire world with your ever-shifty words, as if no one can see your actual motivations written across your forehead.
zzz "You don't know me"
You are the one presuming that an argument isn't legimate because it doesn't agree with your worldview. Could it somehow a SPECIFIC NYC-centric houston record COULD be better than a SPECIFIC Houston-centric houston record, or that even the fact that a houston record is trying to sound NYC might make it a more interesting record as a result? (Just like I think that Masta Ace's "Born to Roll" trying to sound like a non-NYC record makes it a more interesting record as a result)?
It's possible, but we all know that Mr. Scarface Is Back is still a better record than The Fix.
I agree with this. Whats your point. That corny NYers like The Fix too much? well uh point to you I guess. I hope you feel better about yourself.
I'm willing to engage with someone's ideas but when you turn it into personal attacks yr not doing discussion any service. Your whole worldview is suffocatingly limited and makes for such a dreary musical experience.
Yeah, no one on this site ever engages in personal attacks when it comes to me.
And you know next to jackshit about my "worldview". But of course you think you know it all, so I suppose my "worldview" falls within your jurisdiction.
I know your worldview as expressed on this board pretty damn well. You've done a terrible job at guessing everyone else's, though.
I think Houston sounds like lots of things. Unlike you, I am aware that Houston's musical scene does not exist in a vacuum and has been influenced by many different styles of music over the years, and that the implication that Devin's first solo album is so distinctly Houston is the reason non-Houston people hate it is something you've made up in your own damn mindgarden.
1. You aren't telling me shit about the Houston sound that I don't already know firsthand.
2. I don't think anyone hates Devin's first album. I just know that one of the primary reasons why so many proclaim his second album as his best is because it was their entry point to Devin by way of DJ Premier being on it. It's turned into this rvisionist history where The Dude and especially the Odd Squad album didn't really exist, except as some footnote that should only be kept in Texas-specific memory banks.
I edited it btw - i didn't mean 'hates,' i meant underrated. But i haven't heard anybody trying to write off the odd squad or the dude. Keep fighting the good fight though man.
Have you even asked me yet why I like the second Devin album more than the first? No, you just jumped to a conclusion because it makes you feel better about yourself.
OK, I'll play...why do you like the 2nd album better?
More good songs. My favorite song on "Just Tryin" is also on Fadanuf.
Usually, culture-vultures grow up without a culture of their own, therefore they see no problem cherry-picking their preferred pieces of the cultures of others in order to Frankenstein some semblnce of culture for themselves.
I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point, but isn't this exactly what you've been doing in selectively claiming Bay/Houston/NOLA/Blowed, but dismissing certain developments in those scenes (I>The Fix/I>, Busdriver, Hacky Sack Competitions) if they don't fit your own narrow vision of what that culture entails. The only difference between you and the culture vultures you so despise is that you have had the circumstances and resources to actually live in these places rather than merely learn about them through music and hand me down accounts.
And your entire thesis fails to account for the natural cross pollination of music. Texas and Los Angeles hip hop has been intermingling for the greater part of the past 20 years. Ask DOC or 3-2 or your boys Menace Clan. Why then do you paint a 2002 Dr. Dre/Devin The Dude collab as an inauthentic representation of either sound and not a natural extension of these interactions? Here in DC artists like Devin, Z-Ro, Face, etc. are hugely popular and have been for many years (amongst a population who most likely have never read Kelefah Sennah or Tom Breihan, I might add). Are these fans culture vultures because they grew up on Odd Squad but are probably unaware of and disinterested in K-Rino? Or are their tastes merely limited by the social and economic forces that prevent them from whimsically traveling from city to city to engage every rap community that fits their fancy?
And your entire thesis fails to account for the natural cross pollination of music. Texas and Los Angeles hip hop has been intermingling for the greater part of the past 20 years. Ask DOC or 3-2 or your boys Menace Clan.
Not that I want it how you know he knows I want it, but dude... that's his idea.
Its actually freshwater beach. I used to live right around the corner. I was going down for a swim one day and saw that. The first thing i thought was wait im not in cronulla.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point, but isn't this exactly what you've been doing in selectively claiming Bay/Houston/NOLA/Blowed, but dismissing certain developments in those scenes (I>The Fix/I>, Busdriver, Hacky Sack Competitions) if they don't fit your own narrow vision of what that culture entails. The only difference between you and the culture vultures you so despise is that you have had the circumstances and resources to actually live in these places rather than merely learn about them through music and hand me down accounts.
Selective claiming? If so, selections based on the circumstance of life...not fashion. I had lived in NOLA, LA, and Houston as a kid. Y'all want to act like I moved to these places just to get up close to their rap scenes. Even when I moved to the Bay as an adult, it was for the ocean, proximity to Hawaii, camping, and oh yeah...my wife's schooling long before it had to do with anything rap related. That marauding psychophantic shit y'all try to peg me with is some straight projection on some of y'all's part.
And your entire thesis fails to account for the natural cross pollination of music. Texas and Los Angeles hip hop has been intermingling for the greater part of the past 20 years. Ask DOC or 3-2 or your boys Menace Clan.
FAKE FINDS ALERT!!!
Why then do you paint a 2002 Dr. Dre/Devin The Dude collab as an inauthentic representation of either sound and not a natural extension of these interactions?
It's perfectly authentic. It's just not Devin's best work by any stretch of the imagination, and thus an easy target for clowning.
Here in DC artists like Devin, Z-Ro, Face, etc. are hugely popular and have been for many years (amongst a population who most likely have never read Kelefah Sennah or Tom Breihan, I might add). Are these fans culture vultures because they grew up on Odd Squad but are probably unaware of and disinterested in K-Rino? Or are their tastes merely limited by the social and economic forces that prevent them from whimsically traveling from city to city to engage every rap community that fits their fancy?
Those DC dudes aren't on the internet or in the New York Times trying define Houston rap, are they? And if they were, at least they'd be a step up from many of the jokers who've been doing it lately.
I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point, but isn't this exactly what you've been doing in selectively claiming Bay/Houston/NOLA/Blowed, but dismissing certain developments in those scenes (I>The Fix/I>, Busdriver, Hacky Sack Competitions) if they don't fit your own narrow vision of what that culture entails. The only difference between you and the culture vultures you so despise is that you have had the circumstances and resources to actually live in these places rather than merely learn about them through music and hand me down accounts.
That marauding psychophantic shit y'all try to peg me with is some straight projection on some of y'all's part.
Comments
nonetheless I'm quite sure both Saadiq and Dre are extremely popular in Texas. But as an 'outsider' I don't know for sure! Why don't you tell us harvey
You do not deserve this information.
Horrible example.
Even though you're about to call me out for doing this sort of thing, I just can't help myself...
You would rather read about Texas rap from the New York Times because you are a culture-vulture.
Who ever said obsess? The word is respect.
Usually, culture-vultures grow up without a culture of their own, therefore they see no problem cherry-picking their preferred pieces of the cultures of others in order to Frankenstein some semblnce of culture for themselves.
I myself grew up in the Creole/Mardi Gras culture of New Orleans, of which music was a highly functional facet. KRS grew up in the hip-hop culture of the South Bronx. We're 2 people , Americans even, who understand what pre-McDonald's culture is all about. Rather than just dismissing us as quacks based on our ideas of culture alone, you should try getting off of your uppity horse long enough to learn a lil something.
So you're mad that I skip to the chase of identifying reasons why people say what they say instead of simply sticking to what they say alone? You little dudes are the worst in that you think you can manipulate the entire world with your ever-shifty words, as if no one can see your actual motivations written across your forehead.
It's possible, but we all know that Mr. Scarface Is Back is still a better record than The Fix.
Yeah, no one on this site ever engages in personal attacks when it comes to me.
And you know next to jackshit about my "worldview". But of course you think you know it all, so I suppose my "worldview" falls within your jurisdiction.
1. You aren't telling me shit about the Houston sound that I don't already know firsthand.
2. I don't think anyone hates Devin's first album. I just know that one of the primary reasons why so many proclaim his second album as his best is because it was their entry point to Devin by way of DJ Premier being on it. It's turned into this rvisionist history where The Dude and especially the Odd Squad album didn't really exist, except as some footnote that should only be kept in Texas-specific memory banks.
OK, I'll play...why do you like the 2nd album better?
?
Why? People make judgement calls on shit outside their realm of experience or culture all the time; you're like the ultimate cultural relativist here. Oh but wait time to backpedal - you just mean they should RESPECT the culture, you never intended to suggest that they shouldn't take from it what they wanted or express their own interpretations, right?
No, I'd rather read about it from an insightful writer who has some PERSPECTIVE than a self-hating hippie cornball who thinks he is judge jury and executioner on all things texas rap.
I'd say requiring people to know the details of texas barbecue in order to appreciate trae counts as 'obsessing'
haha thats cute. First off dude, and i mean this entirely seriously - i do try to learn things from you! I just have to constantly filter through the bullshit, which is a pain in the ass. I don't question that you know more about texas rap and there is shit that i would love to learn more about. I just don't appreciate the unearned snobbery and condescension.
further, i think you need to acknowledge that whatever culture you were raised in, your ideas about that culture are not neccessarily correct! Thats what I was using KRS-1 for.
zzz
"You don't know me"
I agree with this. Whats your point. That corny NYers like The Fix too much? well uh point to you I guess. I hope you feel better about yourself.
I know your worldview as expressed on this board pretty damn well. You've done a terrible job at guessing everyone else's, though.
I edited it btw - i didn't mean 'hates,' i meant underrated. But i haven't heard anybody trying to write off the odd squad or the dude. Keep fighting the good fight though man.
More good songs. My favorite song on "Just Tryin" is also on Fadanuf.
I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point, but isn't this exactly what you've been doing in selectively claiming Bay/Houston/NOLA/Blowed, but dismissing certain developments in those scenes (I>The Fix/I>, Busdriver, Hacky Sack Competitions) if they don't fit your own narrow vision of what that culture entails. The only difference between you and the culture vultures you so despise is that you have had the circumstances and resources to actually live in these places rather than merely learn about them through music and hand me down accounts.
And your entire thesis fails to account for the natural cross pollination of music. Texas and Los Angeles hip hop has been intermingling for the greater part of the past 20 years. Ask DOC or 3-2 or your boys Menace Clan. Why then do you paint a 2002 Dr. Dre/Devin The Dude collab as an inauthentic representation of either sound and not a natural extension of these interactions? Here in DC artists like Devin, Z-Ro, Face, etc. are hugely popular and have been for many years (amongst a population who most likely have never read Kelefah Sennah or Tom Breihan, I might add). Are these fans culture vultures because they grew up on Odd Squad but are probably unaware of and disinterested in K-Rino? Or are their tastes merely limited by the social and economic forces that prevent them from whimsically traveling from city to city to engage every rap community that fits their fancy?
Not that I want it how you know he knows I want it, but dude... that's his idea.
Selective claiming? If so, selections based on the circumstance of life...not fashion. I had lived in NOLA, LA, and Houston as a kid. Y'all want to act like I moved to these places just to get up close to their rap scenes. Even when I moved to the Bay as an adult, it was for the ocean, proximity to Hawaii, camping, and oh yeah...my wife's schooling long before it had to do with anything rap related. That marauding psychophantic shit y'all try to peg me with is some straight projection on some of y'all's part.
FAKE FINDS ALERT!!!
It's perfectly authentic. It's just not Devin's best work by any stretch of the imagination, and thus an easy target for clowning.
Those DC dudes aren't on the internet or in the New York Times trying define Houston rap, are they? And if they were, at least they'd be a step up from many of the jokers who've been doing it lately.
Please try again... in English.
you can't peg me with marauding psychophantic projections![/b]