American Hardcore
The_Hook_Up
8,182 Posts
just got back from seeing it...I liked it. Felt like it should have been about half-hour longer to include some unmentioned bands/people...i.e. Husker Du(they really skimped on the midwest, one interview and it was with Tommy Stinson?), needed some Minutemen footage and a little more Watt interviews...great footage though. I wish they would have played the Void footage a little longer than 10 seconds. Good attempt me thinks.
Comments
good movie.
i want to see this and the doc on christian hosoi-rising son
Hardcore, as a sub-genre of punk rock, leaves little to the imagination.
Punk is a place for queers, weirdos, outcasts, criminals, ex-Trekkies, scholars, forward thinkers, loners, fat girls, and guys who wore make up. It started as a reactionary explosion to mainstream culture, and gave birth to a thousand bands with a thousand unique points of view.
Suicide, Cro-Mags, Dead Kennedys, Circle Jerks, Crucifucks, Minor Threat, Gang of Four, Rudimentary Peni, Minutemen, The Wipers, Bad Brains, Spitboy, This Heat, Big Black, Residents, Crass, Discharge, Wire, Flipper, Bl'ast, Misfits, Scratch Acid, The Stooges, Siouxsie, Swans, D.O.A., Joy Division, Subhumans.
In that list I see dykes, tough guys, rastas, computer nerds, muckrackers, political savants, high school dropouts, PhDs, and comic book collectors.
Hardcore, the oft-bestowed pinnacle of punk, takes all that is interesting about the movement and reduces it to "fucking shit up." Those weirdos who were originally drawn to punk rock, if set free in the hardcore scene, would get their faggot ass kicked, or have their comic book collection set aflame, or get raped (did you catch the scene in American Hardcore where the dickhead brags about raping girls?).
If some retard frat boys and ex-buttrock stadium show assholes want to release some pent up aggression, please don't call it punk rock. Call it what it is, dumb.
The thing I love about punk rock is its unpredictability, unique ideas, contrast to everyday life... the humor. An example: The Crucifucks made flyers (with their phone number) for a show they were to play with Millions of Dead Cops and put them all over the college campus. Then they called the cops on themselves, complaining about the offensive names and images on the flyers. The cops investigated, found the flyer (and the phone number), called the band, and told them they would have to cancel the show. The band argued that they were perfectly within their rights to have the show. The cops warned again, and the band advised, "you should take more pride in your job and not go so out of your way to make fools of yourselves". More, they recorded all these phone calls and put them on their album. (Wouldn't you agree, that's not only funny, but it's fucking punk rock!?).
Something also should be said about hardcore's flirtation with (inundation in?) popular culture. It's claim of being "so much deeper" than pop music would be stronger without an appeal to the mainstream pop music success it engendered.
Give me dykes and shrimpy dude in glasses any day.
but
the bad brains and minor threat aren't punk????
or nerdy?
jay is in jail for 6 years
I have to disagree, I dont think the film boiled down hardcore to just "slam dancing" It clearly stated hardcore was a movement...grass roots and an important American innovation...for the most part the geeks and shrimpy dudes werent getting in a van and paving a punk rock "chitlin circuit" if you will. Hardcore helped spread the gospel. They were the dudes who made a true sacrifice and inspired a ton of folks(albeit some of them were huge meatheads, but a lot werent)
Yes, I saw TSOL dude flaunting his "sins" and yes it wasnt cool, but hardcore was the first musical movement, in this country at least, that basically threw EVERY kind of shit at the wall to see what would stick...purity, nihlism, crime, racism, homophobia, violence, drug abuse, politics, humor...yes not all of it was something to be proud of or to brag about, but it walked the walk. I am sure you saw MDC dude talk about being gay and majorly bumming out a large contention of his fans when he presented them with that realiziation. As far as harcore helping to engender mainstream pop culture, well it cetainly wasnt the plan, the originators arent at fault...thats like blaming Little Richard for Pat Boone.
All in all, despite its major limitations, it is the best documentary on punk rock yet and refreshing to watch a documentary of said music without the mention of the Ramones and the Clash a bazillion times.....
My major gripe was the almost NO mention of Husker Du and no footage of them... the Middle Class, Black Flag, Bad Brains and Husker Du were the absolute first hardcore bands and it was a glaring obmission. Also the fact that 2/3rds of them are homosexual would put them in a unique place with Gary Floyd, etc in the machismo laden harcore genre...too important a band to overlook in a study of the genre. But perhaps they were one of the bands that legal reasons wouldnt allow their appearance. Who knows?
Anyway, I dont think the film distilled hardcore down to a shaved head and punching the guy next to you...
I'm sorry, I don't understand. Are you replying to something I said?
Hook Up,
I understand where you're coming from, but if hardcore was responsible for so much beyond musclehead shit, why didn't they spend more than 20 minutes on it?
Meatheads taking credit for a smart idea they don't own. Pre-dating the hardcore 'chitlun circuit' was a punk network (started largely from labels, magazines and record stores) that paved the way for the meatheads. See Punk (magazine), Slash, Sniffin' Glue, Flipside, The Gabba Gabba Gazette, Small Wonders, Rough Trade, Chiswick, Wax Trax, and "The Moron's Guide to Making A Record."
I think you're making my point for me. But again, I don't think hardcore can take credit for this type of agitation. I can think of a dozen pre-hardcore examples--who were much less haphazard, and much more convincing--who 'walked the walk.' As a much gentler alternative, Morrissey could attack all those issues you listed with some purpose (and in a much more interesting way), without having to rape anyone to prove his point. See "Last of the Famous International Playboys" (love song to UK murderers, the Krays=violence), "Yes I Am Blind" (=nihlism), walking around on stage with a hearing aid (accusations of poking fun at retards), his blatant homoerotic behavior, etc.
Sure they are. I hold people responsible for their behavior and decisions, and I'd expect them to do the same of me. I don't buy that whole "love the music not the musician" shit. If you act like a dick your guitar playing won't change the fact that you're a dick. If you're a part of something, and work against it, then it's partly your fault that it's fucked up. I blame those meatheads for what they did.
I see it as a mediocre book made into a bad movie. Plus, it's hard to document something that happened outside an established network. Trying to it gussy up for a cineplex seems silly.
In contrast, I loved the Bad Brains Live At CBGB documentary because it was, in spirit as well as in film quality, a true representation of the time. So great to see everyone in their 1982 CBGB punk uniform--conformingly non-conformist--contrasted with HR in some fucking skintight highwater slacks and a dress shirt with bloodstains absolutely not giving a shit. The video, audio, focus, and editing are total shit. Terrible really, which is why I like it. It's not all interspersed with some A&R douchebag in front of a bunch of "significant" records talking about the cultural impact the Bad Brains made. It's just a crummy glimpse at the energy of that moment.
Other works worthy of mention:
Banned in D.C. by Cynthia Connolly
Don't Need You
You Weren't There
Fuck You Heroes
We Jam Econo
Anyway, not trying to piss on your parade, just one guy with a pile of records talking to another. When's there gonna be a Husker Du documentary?
Who has some Rudimentary Peni records for sale?
right, but before the DK's and Black Flag it was simply not possible for a band not signed to a major label to play El Paso or Witchita...
the "punk network" you mention didn't actually DO alot in reality... they mostly operated in isolation in their locales... wheras the h/c kids operated cross country...
a) hardcore predates the Smiths
b) you're missing the point. what HU is saying is that hardcore as a movement, initially, had no ethos except the expression of the ID... you had the FU's "my america" or AF's "public assistance" next to Millions of Dead Cops and "reaganomics killing you, reaganomics killing me" sentiments of DRI...
and H.U is right, nowhere before that in american music can you see people screaming forth on their issues so passionately, whatever they are... certainly, the folk boom of the 60's was extremely message based, but tied into a particular viewpoint, whereas in HC the only viewpoint was to be angry about something...
as for "haphazard" as a criticism, we are talking about 17 year old kids... would you put your 17 year old self on the line?
jesus, that's like blaming Kool Herc for Fergie...
asking all creative people not to be assholes is fucking retarded... sorry, almost all musicians, from miles davis to harley flanagan are pricks... and if you sit there in the record store holding up "black man's soul" going "jeez, like to buy this, but man, that ike, i heard some bad things...", that's your loss...
i will agree with this. that bad brains movie rules. i also love that footage of them at cb's wearing all white. so dope. they look so fly, yet HR throws himself all over the floor. i get goose pimples when they play "at the movies".. NEVER GIVE IN, NEVER GIVE IN...
it was not a perfect movie. they should have let the songs play. i mean, why play 20 seconds of a 50 second song? play the whole damn thing.
however, it was pretty good and we're never gonna see another HC movie, so i'll live with this one...
No, it's like holding Kool Herc accountable for his behavior, and holding Fergie accountable for her behavior.
Most of the people I've encountered in the punk world are upright folks. I've been able to trust them to sleep on my couch, help organize shows, deal with money, offer assistance in putting out records, being friends, etc. If this is retarded, I am happily so.
As for the others, the primadonnas, assholes, crooks and liars... history will (has) beat them into dust.
I'd think more of the Bad Brains if they didn't urge my gay friends to "ask Jah and he'll make the change." I'm not burning my copy of Black Man's Soul, but I'm not trying to take any life lessons from Ike.
Why should creativity give you a pass to be an asshole? If you and I are friends and I fuck your girlfriend, I imagine you'd be pretty pissed, right? Are you suggesting that if I was a creative painter friend who fucked your girlfriend, it'd be okay?
Don't Blow No Fudge Buns,
!B
Calling the cops on yourself, recording the phone calls, and putting the cops voices onto your album is about as punk rock as it gets. It's taking the establishment's voice and reclaiming it as your own. Wonderful stuff.
But what if intermingled with the retard frat boys and ex-buttrock stadium show assholes are the nihilists and anarchists who also want to release some pent up aggression? I'm inclined to agree with you that throwing elbows at everyone within arm's reach is dumb (especially when you're getting some of those sharper elbows in the ribs, or worse, the jaw), but I also think that there's some creative space that violent nihilism of this type creates.
I think about my friend M. In High School, M was kind of a geeky sort, tall, bespectacled, had a kind of aw-shucks accent that sounds southern but is more likely rural. Under these circumstances, we were friends. I even brought M to my church (at his request). He had a nice bass singing voice on some hymns.
Later, M became radicalized under the teachings of the anarchists that came to prominence in the PNW in the late 90s. Some of them were survivalist anarchists, others of them were socialist anarchists, but they were definitely threatening to the powers that be. (I don't really know much about the music they were into, so this is kind of an aside about the nature of violence and destruction as political action or philosophy.) They had marches. They had protests. They broke a lot of shit. And they got gassed.
Somehow M wound up being a spokesperson, not surprising really. He was always a bright guy. Not as clean as Obama, but almost as articulate. I got together with him for a beer over the holidays, kind of by accident really. And I was like, "how was Seattle?"
"Two best things in the world are sex and rioting."
Rioting for riot's sake can be cathartic, and it can generate space for a dialogue, or even change, to occur. But if it lacks that underlying sense of purpose, it does just end up dumb. It might feel good for the people doing the shitkicking while they're kicking the shit out of people and things, but it doesn't have much of an impact long term.
So yeah, I just talked myself out of thinking that it's not dumb. It's dumb.
If you want to read a book about punk that is not dumb, check here: Punk Productions by Stacy Thompson.
Full disclosure: I haven't seen American Hardcore AND Stacy Thompson is my brother-in-law.
JRoot
PS
TEAM DRESCH b/w Simon Joyner?