While I'm all for banning Dolo on the basis of him being a total asshole, his comments above were hardly the stuff of inflammatory insanity.
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that, for many years, the ANC (African National Congress, of which Mandela was head) was considered a "terrorist organization," namely for their adoption of terrorist tactics during the decades-long struggle to end apartheid. The organization renounced terrorism, officially, around 1990.
ANC, as much as any other organization, is a perfect example of the old cliche "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
As for Mandela being a Communist, that's far more spurious - the ANC, at one point, may have had Communist members mixed into its member base, even leadership but Mandela made it a point to expel a lot of these elements. Regardless, it's hardly as Mandela maintained a card-carrying membership to the CP for his entire life and it's just plain stupid and silly to even float out a "commie" accusation as if anyone in this day and age gives a fuck besides the ghost of McCarthy.
And let me put this out there: South Africa was likely MORE secure under apartheid for the simple reason that draconian state repression can be a really effective way of deterring criminal activity. Of course, you'd also be living in a police state. No one said the trade off was an improvement.
Of course, apartheid also created the conditions which have contributed to the crime rate: you keep a population disenfranchised economically and politically for decades and what the fuck you think is going to happen once the source of their oppression has been removed? SA is paying for the sins of its past and while that will be of little comfort to people being raped, robbed and murdered, this is the kind of ugly shit that happens when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
I dont much care whether gays are allowed to marry or not but I must say the arguments in favour are truly appalling and betray an ignorance of history, the concept of natural rights as enshrined by the constitution and the general workings of government.
State sanctioned marriage is a state conferred benefit. If you are to oppose it on grounds of equality then to be consistent youd have to declare social security ageist and denounce food stamps for discriminating against the employed. The inequality argument becomes even more ridiculous when you consider that the the only real reason marriage laws exist in the first place are to ensure this is the case ie. prevent such unions which the majority(or current ruling political class) doesnt approve of
A stronger position would be to argue against any state involvement in the institution of marriage at all
This line of argument may be apply in the US, although I have my doubts, but it's utterly wrong in the context of other common law countries, Canada for example.
it's just plain stupid and silly to even float out a "commie" accusation as if anyone in this day and age gives a fuck besides the ghost of McCarthy.
You are--to your great credit-- from wingnuttery, in which Red Scares are alive and well. The most obvious recent example is Nancy Pelosi, often referred to as Comrade Pelosi, among other things.
In more general terms, Red Scares are still flung at anybody who doesn't support big ol' tax cuts for the mega-rich ("taxing the richest to fund programs to help the poor is wealth redistribution, and wealth redistribution is COMMUNISM!!!!11111") and even people who favor universal health care. You support these things, you are a commie. I also remember than when that Italian reporter in Iraq had her convoy fired upon by US troops, the far-right folks were saying, "So? She's a commie! Why should we hold our fire?"
Interestingly enough, I've noticed that people who still love a good Red Scare also tend to be the ones claiming that the Nazis were, in fact, radical left-wingers. Their proof? The full title of the Nazi party contains the word "socialist." Nazis=commies! Really!
Let me restate my point: in the context that Dolo used the "commie" slap, it was a laughable throwback to Cold War-era paranoia. I'm not saying that the label doesn't carry weight, but 2006 also isn't 1956.
There might still be virulent anti-Communist fear out there but I tend to think of this as a minority position rather than reflective of some general consensus, not the least of which is because all moderate Lefties fled Communist/Socialist ideals 30 years ago specifically to avoid the stigma.
This said, I always find it amusing when pundits say stupid shit like, "universal health care is just another way of saying socialized medicine."
it's just plain stupid and silly to even float out a "commie" accusation as if anyone in this day and age gives a fuck besides the ghost of McCarthy.
You are--to your great credit-- from wingnuttery, in which Red Scares are alive and well. The most obvious recent example is Nancy Pelosi, often referred to as Comrade Pelosi, among other things.
In more general terms, Red Scares are still flung at anybody who doesn't support big ol' tax cuts for the mega-rich ("taxing the richest to fund programs to help the poor is wealth redistribution, and wealth redistribution is COMMUNISM!!!!11111") and even people who favor universal health care. You support these things, you are a commie. I also remember than when that Italian reporter in Iraq had her convoy fired upon by US troops, the far-right folks were saying, "So? She's a commie! Why should we hold our fire?"
Interestingly enough, I've noticed that people who still love a good Red Scare also tend to be the ones claiming that the Nazis were, in fact, radical left-wingers. Their proof? The full title of the Nazi party contains the word "socialist." Nazis=commies! Really!
Of course, apartheid also created the conditions which have contributed to the crime rate: you keep a population disenfranchised economically and politically for decades and what the fuck you think is going to happen once the source of their oppression has been removed? SA is paying for the sins of its past and while that will be of little comfort to people being raped, robbed and murdered, this is the kind of ugly shit that happens when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a liberal white South African who left SA soon after the end of Apartheid because she said tribal violence was out of control. She said, "It's shame that they have to kill each other this way." I asked her what she expected would happen when you took the boot off 20 million people's neck. Did she really think everything was going to be hunky dory? She just sat there black faced.
Of course, apartheid also created the conditions which have contributed to the crime rate: you keep a population disenfranchised economically and politically for decades and what the fuck you think is going to happen once the source of their oppression has been removed? SA is paying for the sins of its past and while that will be of little comfort to people being raped, robbed and murdered, this is the kind of ugly shit that happens when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a liberal white South African who left SA soon after the end of Apartheid because she said tribal violence was out of control. She said, "It's shame that they have to kill each other this way." I asked her what she expected would happen when you took the boot off 20 million people's neck. Did she really think everything was going to be hunky dory? She just sat there black faced.
Of course, apartheid also created the conditions which have contributed to the crime rate: you keep a population disenfranchised economically and politically for decades and what the fuck you think is going to happen once the source of their oppression has been removed? SA is paying for the sins of its past and while that will be of little comfort to people being raped, robbed and murdered, this is the kind of ugly shit that happens when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a liberal white South African who left SA soon after the end of Apartheid because she said tribal violence was out of control. She said, "It's shame that they have to kill each other this way." I asked her what she expected would happen when you took the boot off 20 million people's neck. Did she really think everything was going to be hunky dory? She just sat there black faced.
Would you have said the same thing if this person was a black South African?
Of course, apartheid also created the conditions which have contributed to the crime rate: you keep a population disenfranchised economically and politically for decades and what the fuck you think is going to happen once the source of their oppression has been removed? SA is paying for the sins of its past and while that will be of little comfort to people being raped, robbed and murdered, this is the kind of ugly shit that happens when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a liberal white South African who left SA soon after the end of Apartheid because she said tribal violence was out of control. She said, "It's shame that they have to kill each other this way." I asked her what she expected would happen when you took the boot off 20 million people's neck. Did she really think everything was going to be hunky dory? She just sat there black[/b] faced.
Would you have said the same thing if this person was a black South African?
I find all this discussion of communism actually quite hilarious because Marx himself said that communism was not a feasible form of government within 7 years after writing the "Manifesto".
That said, all this discussion of communism also scares the crap out of me that people are still 'scared' of communism even though history had proven that it's not a good political system*
*on a large scale a la the former USSR. The Smurfs, however, are a perfect example of how communism can work. check it.
While I'm all for banning Dolo on the basis of him being a total asshole, his comments above were hardly the stuff of inflammatory insanity.
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that, for many years, the ANC (African National Congress, of which Mandela was head) was considered a "terrorist organization," namely for their adoption of terrorist tactics during the decades-long struggle to end apartheid. The organization renounced terrorism, officially, around 1990.
ANC, as much as any other organization, is a perfect example of the old cliche "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
As for Mandela being a Communist, that's far more spurious - the ANC, at one point, may have had Communist members mixed into its member base, even leadership but Mandela made it a point to expel a lot of these elements. Regardless, it's hardly as Mandela maintained a card-carrying membership to the CP for his entire life and it's just plain stupid and silly to even float out a "commie" accusation as if anyone in this day and age gives a fuck besides the ghost of McCarthy.
And let me put this out there: South Africa was likely MORE secure under apartheid for the simple reason that draconian state repression can be a really effective way of deterring criminal activity. Of course, you'd also be living in a police state. No one said the trade off was an improvement.
Of course, apartheid also created the conditions which have contributed to the crime rate: you keep a population disenfranchised economically and politically for decades and what the fuck you think is going to happen once the source of their oppression has been removed? SA is paying for the sins of its past and while that will be of little comfort to people being raped, robbed and murdered, this is the kind of ugly shit that happens when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
You are--to your great credit-- from wingnuttery, in which Red Scares are alive and well. The most obvious recent example is Nancy Pelosi, often referred to as Comrade Pelosi, among other things.
In more general terms, Red Scares are still flung at anybody who doesn't support big ol' tax cuts for the mega-rich ("taxing the richest to fund programs to help the poor is wealth redistribution, and wealth redistribution is COMMUNISM!!!!11111") and even people who favor universal health care. You support these things, you are a commie. I also remember than when that Italian reporter in Iraq had her convoy fired upon by US troops, the far-right folks were saying, "So? She's a commie! Why should we hold our fire?"
Interestingly enough, I've noticed that people who still love a good Red Scare also tend to be the ones claiming that the Nazis were, in fact, radical left-wingers. Their proof? The full title of the Nazi party contains the word "socialist." Nazis=commies! Really!
I wouldve thought that the nazi's refering to themselves as socialists was actually quite good evidence of the fact. Still its superfluous to discuss the matter since the distinction between facism and socialism is largely a rhetorical one. I dont see why any 'wingnuts' would exert that much effort into trying to prove the nazi's were hard-left since the world powers of the period that were unambiguously hard-left killed way more people than the nazis did anyway.
Of course, apartheid also created the conditions which have contributed to the crime rate: you keep a population disenfranchised economically and politically for decades and what the fuck you think is going to happen once the source of their oppression has been removed? SA is paying for the sins of its past and while that will be of little comfort to people being raped, robbed and murdered, this is the kind of ugly shit that happens when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a liberal white South African who left SA soon after the end of Apartheid because she said tribal violence was out of control. She said, "It's shame that they have to kill each other this way." I asked her what she expected would happen when you took the boot off 20 million people's neck. Did she really think everything was going to be hunky dory? She just sat there black faced.
Maybe she responded the way she did because although liberal she was not far left enough to have become afflicted with one of leftisms most disgusting tenents. The profoundly insulting belief that non-whites have inferior powers of self-determination and moral agency to the point that savagery is all you can expect of them in certain circumstances.
Of course, apartheid also created the conditions which have contributed to the crime rate: you keep a population disenfranchised economically and politically for decades and what the fuck you think is going to happen once the source of their oppression has been removed? SA is paying for the sins of its past and while that will be of little comfort to people being raped, robbed and murdered, this is the kind of ugly shit that happens when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a liberal white South African who left SA soon after the end of Apartheid because she said tribal violence was out of control. She said, "It's shame that they have to kill each other this way." I asked her what she expected would happen when you took the boot off 20 million people's neck. Did she really think everything was going to be hunky dory? She just sat there black faced.
I have similar conversations with people from the former USSR.
PW Botha died on October 31st. Nelson Mandela was quoted as saying "while to many Mr Botha will remain a symbol of apartheid, we also remember him for the steps he took to pave the way towards the eventual peacefully negotiated settlement in our country."
I wouldve thought that the nazi's refering to themselves as socialists was actually quite good evidence of the fact. Still its superfluous to discuss the matter since the distinction between facism and socialism is largely a rhetorical one.
you are a little boy in a world of grown ups. Since you have no knowledge or comprehension of either right or left wing politics or history- see, for instance, actual nazi opinions of socialism rather than the ones you've made up - its amazing you don't stop writing rubbish on record forums and get back to reading fantasy novels about dragons and goblins. Tell me, is discworld in danger from Trotsky? Or will Sir Dolo save the day by attacking communist shapeshifters and their Nazi collaborators?
In practice facism and socialism both result in a ruling elite with unlimited power other the majority. Its a shame that you plebs are in the main comfortable with aquiring your opinions by way of cultural osmosis rather than intellectual inquiry.
Comments
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that, for many years, the ANC (African National Congress, of which Mandela was head) was considered a "terrorist organization," namely for their adoption of terrorist tactics during the decades-long struggle to end apartheid. The organization renounced terrorism, officially, around 1990.
ANC, as much as any other organization, is a perfect example of the old cliche "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
As for Mandela being a Communist, that's far more spurious - the ANC, at one point, may have had Communist members mixed into its member base, even leadership but Mandela made it a point to expel a lot of these elements. Regardless, it's hardly as Mandela maintained a card-carrying membership to the CP for his entire life and it's just plain stupid and silly to even float out a "commie" accusation as if anyone in this day and age gives a fuck besides the ghost of McCarthy.
And let me put this out there: South Africa was likely MORE secure under apartheid for the simple reason that draconian state repression can be a really effective way of deterring criminal activity. Of course, you'd also be living in a police state. No one said the trade off was an improvement.
Of course, apartheid also created the conditions which have contributed to the crime rate: you keep a population disenfranchised economically and politically for decades and what the fuck you think is going to happen once the source of their oppression has been removed? SA is paying for the sins of its past and while that will be of little comfort to people being raped, robbed and murdered, this is the kind of ugly shit that happens when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
This line of argument may be apply in the US, although I have my doubts, but it's utterly wrong in the context of other common law countries, Canada for example.
You are--to your great credit--
In more general terms, Red Scares are still flung at anybody who doesn't support big ol' tax cuts for the mega-rich ("taxing the richest to fund programs to help the poor is wealth redistribution, and wealth redistribution is COMMUNISM!!!!11111") and even people who favor universal health care. You support these things, you are a commie. I also remember than when that Italian reporter in Iraq had her convoy fired upon by US troops, the far-right folks were saying, "So? She's a commie! Why should we hold our fire?"
Interestingly enough, I've noticed that people who still love a good Red Scare also tend to be the ones claiming that the Nazis were, in fact, radical left-wingers. Their proof? The full title of the Nazi party contains the word "socialist." Nazis=commies! Really!
There might still be virulent anti-Communist fear out there but I tend to think of this as a minority position rather than reflective of some general consensus, not the least of which is because all moderate Lefties fled Communist/Socialist ideals 30 years ago specifically to avoid the stigma.
This said, I always find it amusing when pundits say stupid shit like, "universal health care is just another way of saying socialized medicine."
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a liberal white South African who left SA soon after the end of Apartheid because she said tribal violence was out of control. She said, "It's shame that they have to kill each other this way." I asked her what she expected would happen when you took the boot off 20 million people's neck. Did she really think everything was going to be hunky dory? She just sat there black faced.
Saying.
Would you have said the same thing if this person was a black South African?
Now I'm really confused???
That said, all this discussion of communism also scares the crap out of me that people are still 'scared' of communism even though history had proven that it's not a good political system*
*on a large scale a la the former USSR. The Smurfs, however, are a perfect example of how communism can work. check it.
I wouldnt give a shit
ahem
I wouldve thought that the nazi's refering to themselves as socialists was actually quite good evidence of the fact. Still its superfluous to discuss the matter since the distinction between facism and socialism is largely a rhetorical one. I dont see why any 'wingnuts' would exert that much effort into trying to prove the nazi's were hard-left since the world powers of the period that were unambiguously hard-left killed way more people than the nazis did anyway.
Maybe she responded the way she did because although liberal she was not far left enough to have become afflicted with one of leftisms most disgusting tenents. The profoundly insulting belief that non-whites have inferior powers of self-determination and moral agency to the point that savagery is all you can expect of them in certain circumstances.
He'd be perfect to join
I have similar conversations with people from the former USSR.
Hopefully, that will mark the end of an era.
In practice facism and socialism both result in a ruling elite with unlimited power other the majority. Its a shame that you plebs are in the main comfortable with aquiring your opinions by way of cultural osmosis rather than intellectual inquiry.