Of Queens and Chickenheads...

dj_neta

Question: If women MCs and DJs had never existed, had never released a record, never performed, never broken into the mainstream, would hip hop be essentially different today?[/b]I'm sure many of you remember this passage from Nelson George's Hip Hop America (1998):???Hip hop has produced no Bessie Smith, no Billie Holiday, no Aretha Franklin.??? After a brief ???Queens of rap" roll call ??? Sha-Rock, Salt-N-Pepa, MC Lyte, Foxy Brown, Lil??? Kim, Missy Elliot, and Queen Latifah ??? George argues that ???if none of these female artists had ever made a record, hip hop???s development would have been no different.???(184)How do you respond?George's statements have, not surprisingly, pissed off some women artists and scholars (Gwendolyn Pough, Rachel Raimist, Joan Morgan, etc.). But no one has yet offered a convincing argument to prove that women have been crucial to the survival and evolution of hip hop. Is it enough to lionize a handful of artists like Latifah, Lyte, and Lauryn? Is it enough to show how women have created "social spheres" for themselves within the context of hip hop? If women artists are heroines for overcoming obstacles such as sexual aggression, exploitation, unfair pay, condescension, and exclusion, do they deserve equal space in the annals of hip hop history? How do we account for the fact that most male performers, producers, promoters, record execs have at one time or another advocated, exploited, and profited from the "female element"?Could hip hop have ever been an exclusively male venture? Or is it, in essence?

batmon

Good Question. I hate to say it but it is a man's game but many woman have contributed.

Queen Latifah is my pick for the most important female so far. I wish she had a 5 album run though.

mannybolone

What George - I think - overlooks is that part of the reason why hip-hop never produced the equivalent of a Bessie Smith or Lady Day has more to do with the politics of gender within hip-hop. In other words, female artists have always been at a fundamental structural disadvantage within hip-hop (both enforced as well as self-perpetuated) in trying to find equal footing with male artists.

But just to note, if you removed women from hip-hop in general - not just as performers but throughout the entire culture/industry - I don't think you could say that hip-hop would have "evolved" the same way. For one thing, "Rappers Delight" largely came together through the plotting of Sylvia Robinson. Take her out. Take out Martha Cooper. Take out a range of women who were involved, behind the scenes, in hip-hop early years and the direction hip-hop took could have turned out quite differently (to say nothing of later female executives)?

But I think there's also a larger question to be asked here: which records were absolutely essential to hip-hop's development?

Would hip-hop have been radically different than it is now if "Paid In Full" never came out? or even "It Takes a Nation of Millions"? Or "Sucka MCs"? I think George is raising, on the surface, a very interesting question but it's a hypothetical that becomes rather difficult to answer with any certainty since hip-hop's momentum hasn't necessarily been driven on the basis of single objects acting in a vacuum but instead, as a critical mass of songs, artists and albums that crop up.

Moreover, I'd also echo Neta's point as to what degree did gender play a role in their success? Would NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" been as memorable without the sexual content/humor? Would 2 Live Crew ever had a career without gender topics as part of their identity? Gender - and women by extension - are omnipresent in hip-hop even when the female rappers themselves have not been.

Last, but certainly not least: where would hip-hop have gotten without female consumers? Their role has been just as important though rarely acknowledged.

Question: If women MCs and DJs had never existed, had never released a record, never performed, never broken into the mainstream, would hip hop be essentially different today?[/b]


I'm sure many of you remember this passage from Nelson George's Hip Hop America (1998):

???Hip hop has produced no Bessie Smith, no Billie Holiday, no Aretha Franklin.??? After a brief ???Queens of rap" roll call ??? Sha-Rock, Salt-N-Pepa, MC Lyte, Foxy Brown, Lil??? Kim, Missy Elliot, and Queen Latifah ??? George argues that ???if none of these female artists had ever made a record, hip hop???s development would have been no different.???(184)

How do you respond?


George's statements have, not surprisingly, pissed off some women artists and scholars (Gwendolyn Pough, Rachel Raimist, Joan Morgan, etc.). But no one has yet offered a convincing argument to prove that women have been crucial to the survival and evolution of hip hop.

Is it enough to lionize a handful of artists like Latifah, Lyte, and Lauryn? Is it enough to show how women have created "social spheres" for themselves within the context of hip hop? If women artists are heroines for overcoming obstacles such as sexual aggression, exploitation, unfair pay, condescension, and exclusion, do they deserve equal space in the annals of hip hop history? How do we account for the fact that most male performers, producers, promoters, record execs have at one time or another advocated, exploited, and profited from the "female element"?

Could hip hop have ever been an exclusively male venture? Or is it, in essence?

prof_rockwell

I think this is rather timely considering that Ms. Osorio just got awarded $15 million in her sexual harassment lawsuit against the Source. Reading both articles that the Village Voice ran the past two weeks, it's apparent that it is a man's game (hip hop) and that even the women involved play along with a lot of the sexuality and misogyny defending themselves with the (in my opinion) cowardly mantra of "well, that's hip hop, and that's the way it goes."

I agree that Latifah is probably the most influential in terms of all around-ness - music, management, business, etc. And I think Missy is definitely carrying the torch that has been passed on with success.

faux_rillz

Last, but certainly not least: where would hip-hop have gotten without female consumers? Their role has been just as important though rarely acknowledged.

I think the female consumer wields more power today than at any previous point--very few major artists would dare release an album without one or two "for the ladies" joints (although whether or not they correctly intuit what the ladies want to hear is another matter--very few women I know would be excited by the prospect of Rick Rowwsss "flipping them like crack"). At the same time, female rappers are less visible than they've ever been before. The industry consensus seems to be that female rappers just don't sell and nobody's really willing to put time/money into developing new female artists in an effort to buck that wisdom. The last significant female rappers to emerge were probably Eve and Trina--and that was seven years ago.

One thing I've noticed is that female rappers' careers are much more likely to be negatively impacted by off-mic antics of the sort that men actually benefit from. People conclude from the Game's public adolescence that he's a rapper with something interesting to talk about; they would likely conclude that a female rapper doing the same schitt was not a rapper at all. I think going to jail really hurt the sales of Li'l Kim's album, whereas a male rapper likely would have benefitted from being locked up just as his album was being released (of course the album itself was awful, which is on her, but plenty of awful records by male rappers sell very well).

hogginthefogg

I agree that hip-hop seems to be a man's world, as far as being a prominent artist is concerned (which does not refute ODub's point about the important roles women have played). And to Prof_Rockwell's point--at least somewhat--the women that have succeeded have largely played by men's rules.

If you wanna make it as a woman in hip-hop, you probably have to have a very sexy image or come off "like a man," i.e. rough and tough (with or without afro puffs). But the rugged women tend to fall off quickly or suffer from accusations and rumors of lesbianism. Or, in the case of Bo$$, both.

Missy is an interesting character within the whole landscape for several reasons. For her first video ("I Can't Stand The Rain"), she chose to wear an inflated suit that made her look twice as large as she actually was. This was before she lost a few pounds off her waist fo' ya, so instead of trying to fit an image she couldn't at the time, she turned it on its ear and went in the total opposite direction.

And even though she raps, she's seen by many (including several Strutters) as more of an R&B/pop singer/songwriter. But that could be another result of hip-hop being male-oriented/controlled.

faux_rillz

If you wanna make it as a woman in hip-hop, you probably have to have a very sexy image or come off "like a man," i.e. rough and tough (with or without afro puffs). But the rugged women tend to fall off quickly or suffer from accusations and rumors of lesbianism. Or, in the case of Bo$$, both.

Well, those were the two models available to female artists during the nineties (more successive than simultaneous; first it was the gangsta b!tch and then it was the sex kitten), but not even contorting oneself into one of those molds really works anymore. I don't know what a female rapper would have to do to come out and sell today. Maybe if one were to emerge as the national face of a new dance-oriented trend like snap music, she could sell albums.

And even though she raps, she's seen by many (including several Strutters) as more of an R&B/pop singer/songwriter. But that could be another result of hip-hop being male-oriented/controlled.

Are you talking to me?

For the last time: what I said was that she was a hip-hop entertainer--just like Dougie Fresh, Biz Markie, Li'l Jon or Puffy--rather than a rapper, not that she was an R&B artist. No matter how many R&B hits she's masterminded, I think that she--like Timbaland--is fundamentally a hip-hop artist.

faux_rillz

And where is Deej?

This thread should be like catnip to him.

hogginthefogg

Are you talking to me?

For the last time: what I said was that she was a hip-hop entertainer

I'm pretty sure you said "entertaineur", but let's not quibble over minutiae.

prof_rockwell

And to Prof_Rockwell's point--at least somewhat--the women that have succeeded have largely played by men's rules.

yeah, I think to clarify, the impression I got from the Village Voice articles was not so much playing by the men's rules, rather turning a blind eye in deference to career goals, in spite of being offended.

hogginthefogg

the Village Voice articles

Link, plaese?

batmon

With today's current HipHop audience not holding lyrics in high regard how/why would a female mc even try to contribute? Not that lyrics are the be all to end all in the game.

mannybolone

At the same time, female rappers are less visible than they've ever been before.

I don't have much to say here except that I think this is an incredibly important point that goes against any idea that hip-hop's progression is linear. Depressing to boot.

faux_rillz

With today's current HipHop audience not holding lyrics in high regard how/why would a female mc even try to contribute? Not that lyrics are the be all to end all in the game.

I don't know that I agree that today's audience is less concerned with lyrics than audiences in the past (we know from the teachings of Phill that real headz have always been a minority--and there's still a small group of fans that checks intensely for lyrics). And I don't understand why this should disproportionately impact women.

hogginthefogg

With today's current HipHop audience not holding lyrics in high regard how/why would a female mc even try to contribute? Not that lyrics are the be all to end all in the game.

I don't know that I agree that today's audience is less concerned with lyrics than audiences in the past (we know from the teachings of Phill that real headz have always been a minority--and there's still a small group of fans that checks intensely for lyrics). And I don't understand why this should disproportionately impact women.

The woman who would appear to be in the best position to make an impact on the today's game is Killer Mike's mom. If DJ Drama calls her up, it's a done deal.

HarveyCanal

batmon

With today's current HipHop audience not holding lyrics in high regard how/why would a female mc even try to contribute? Not that lyrics are the be all to end all in the game.

I don't know that I agree that today's audience is less concerned with lyrics than audiences in the past (we know from the teachings of Phill that real headz have always been a minority--and there's still a small group of fans that checks intensely for lyrics). And I don't understand why this should disproportionately impact women.

I guess I was highlighting fundamentals.

One woman who should really factor into Hip Hop's landscape is Mary J.Blige. Although she isnt a pure HipHop artist, her early career really helped inject R&B w/ "rapp" sensibilities and stretch the language(notlyrics) of Hip Hop. The lines really became blurred after What's The 411. Laying the foundation for Aaliyah/Timbo/Missy/Beyonce fusions. Or is Puffy the real reason?

faux_rillz

With today's current HipHop audience not holding lyrics in high regard how/why would a female mc even try to contribute? Not that lyrics are the be all to end all in the game.

I don't know that I agree that today's audience is less concerned with lyrics than audiences in the past (we know from the teachings of Phill that real headz have always been a minority--and there's still a small group of fans that checks intensely for lyrics). And I don't understand why this should disproportionately impact women.

I guess I was highlighting fundamentals.

One woman who should really factor into Hip Hop's landscape is Mary J.Blige. Although she isnt a pure HipHop artist, her early career really helped inject R&B w/ "rapp" sensibilities and stretch the language(notlyrics) of Hip Hop. The lines really became blurred after What's The 411. Laying the foundation for Aaliyah/Timbo/Missy/Beyonce fusions. Or is Puffy the real reason?

Definitely--although not technically a hip-hop album, 411 is still one of the most important "hip-hop" albums of the nineties.

dj_neta

With today's current HipHop audience not holding lyrics in high regard how/why would a female mc even try to contribute? Not that lyrics are the be all to end all in the game.

I don't know that I agree that today's audience is less concerned with lyrics than audiences in the past (we know from the teachings of Phill that real headz have always been a minority--and there's still a small group of fans that checks intensely for lyrics). And I don't understand why this should disproportionately impact women.

I guess I was highlighting fundamentals.

One woman who should really factor into Hip Hop's landscape is Mary J.Blige. Although she isnt a pure HipHop artist, her early career really helped inject R&B w/ "rapp" sensibilities and stretch the language(notlyrics) of Hip Hop. The lines really became blurred after What's The 411. Laying the foundation for Aaliyah/Timbo/Missy/Beyonce fusions. Or is Puffy the real reason?

Definitely--although not technically a hip-hop album, 411 is still one of the most important "hip-hop albums of the nineties.

Yes. I'd go further and say that r&b artists working within the parameters of hip-hop have to be considered when we look at the influence of women on the genre. I've heard some disparage the "What's The 411?"-era because it marked the point when hip-hop became "soft", when it seemed too many producers were following Puffy's lead and using r&b hooks. But I'd argue that that album was a milestone _because_ it "feminized" hip-hop, because it helped usher in a new type of dialog in hip-hop production, PLUS it made hip-hop more palatable to a lot of female consumers who might not have otherwise been interested.

And part of the problem is that scholars continue to try to assess hip-hop, its development, and its social, cultural, and political impact through lyrical analysis. This dismisses the role of the music itself. Production, after all, is one the key ways artists and some journalists -- especially today -- define regional trends in hip-hop. Consumers, too, have always responded to tempo, melody, baseline.... not simply -- or primarily -- lyrics.

Mel_Gibson

What are female consumers looking for in a rapper? Maleness, perhaps?

Young_Phonics

What are female consumers looking for in a rapper? Maleness, perhaps?

Money
Flip-Flops
Latin Records
5'8 Slender
Doesn't Drink or Smole
Undecided on Children
Aviator Shades
Plaid Shirts

dj_neta

What are female consumers looking for in a rapper? Maleness, perhaps?

A heart of gold.

batmon

What are female consumers looking for in a rapper? Maleness, perhaps?

I know girls who used to check for lyrics as well.

mannybolone

What are female consumers looking for in a rapper? Maleness, perhaps?

I think this is also an important question/point. I think one reason why women have had such a hard time breaking in - and this is far from an obscure point - is that hip-hop itself is inherently bound up in ideals around masculinity in ways that, unlike previous music forms such as soul or jazz (vocals), hasn't really opened itself up to an alternate, more "feminine" point of view. In other words, we accept, on a basic level, that something like soul music has both a male and female point of view (even if those differences in gender are not things that the average soul fan thinks about all the time) but hip-hop is most decidedly gendered "male" in a way where its content - and as Neta notes - *sound* could be said to reflect a masculine identity/attitude. Certainly, it's hard to think of too many female artists who haven't played into that masculine center in one way or another: the MC Lyte school was all about, "I'm a ruffneck like you," while the Lil Kim school = "I'm more hardcore than you." Compare that with the blues or soul where there's no, in my opinion, inherent competition between the sexes for respect or dominance of the entire genre.

In any case, I don't think it's really possible for very many women artists to try to make a go at a rap career that doesn't, on some level, cater heavily to the masculine ideal/identity of hip-hop. However, I think if more women were simply out there, and finding ways to create a new kind of hip-hop that isn't trying to be overly tomboy OR sexualized, it might shift consumer expectations/perceptions. I think there's definitely been attempts at this in the past (Latifah and Lauryn come to mind the most) but it's mostly been exceptions rather than the rule.

What's worth putting out there is the question of why rock hasn't had as great an imbalance? I don't think it's hella equal but certainly, it's much easier to be a woman rocker (and I'm not even talking about some singer/songwriter approach) than it is to be a woman rapper despite the generally boy-skewed nature of the genres. (I don't mean to throw out more questions than answers though, ironically, I'm prepping a lecture right now on gender inequality in America).

bassie

What are female consumers looking for in a rapper?

good flow
excellent story-telling skills
creative imagery and word play
ability to perform whole songs live
ability to freestyle
unique voice
sense of humour
a good balance of party joints and saying something
will not dedicate the one weak-ass r&b shit to the ladies

faux_rillz

What are female consumers looking for in a rapper?

good flow
excellent story-telling skills
creative imagery and word play
ability to perform whole songs live
ability to freestyle
unique voice
sense of humour
a good balance of party joints and saying something
will not dedicate the one weak-ass r&b shit to the ladies

Is "My Girl Got a Girlfriend" intended for the ladies, or more for the fellas?

prof_rockwell

the Village Voice articles

Link, plaese?

article #1: http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0643,brewhammond,74806,22.html
article #2: http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0644,clemente,74884,22.html


whoa, these links came up strange on the post, make sure and copy and paste the whole thing including all the parts with the commas



I think another thing to consider when talking about female rappers, is the whole atmosphere of one-up-manship that is prevalant in rapping. It has always had a very heavy braggadocio element which lends itself to (traditionally) masculine behavior.

tiger_blurp

Are we just talking about female rappers here? It seems this discussion could look at the bigger picture of women's involvement in Hip-Hop, and offer some interesting viewpoints. On the industry side, I recall women in powerful roles whose impact should be considered. Thembisa Mshaka and Jennifer Norwood come immediately to mind (keep in mind I'm not in a position to be comprehensive about this, those were just the first two names that popped up from my slowly fading recollection of my short time in the game back in the day). Many people know/knew the game much better than I, so I'll let them debate those contributions. I just thought I'd broach the subject.

prof_rockwell

Are we just talking about female rappers here? It seems this discussion could look at the bigger picture of women's involvement in Hip-Hop, and offer some interesting viewpoints. On the industry side, I recall women in powerful roles whose impact should be considered. Thembisa Mshaka and Jennifer Norwood come immediately to mind (keep in mind I'm not in a position to be comprehensive about this, those were just the first two names that popped up from my slowly fading recollection of my short time in the game back in the day). Many people know/knew the game much better than I, so I'll let them debate those contributions. I just thought I'd broach the subject.

Well, I was pretty much referencing women working in the industry in a non-entertainment capacity. Plaese to read the Village Voice articles I've been referencing in the links above.

tiger_blurp

Well, I was pretty much referencing women working in the industry in a non-entertainment capacity. Plaese to read the Village Voice articles I've been referencing in the links above.

Sorry about that. I was responding to the general responses in the thread, and not to you specifically. I haven't had time to read the VV articles. And upon further review, I seemed to have missed ODub's post the first time around. I'll peep the links tomorrow when my day settles a bit. I had just wanted to make a post before I let it slip my mind altogether.