VOTING

24

  Comments


  • canonicalcanonical 2,100 Posts
    Crink, I don't blame you for not voting. But I do blame you for not trying to change the situation. The problem is there is no choice in your elections. I'm not really aware of what the other political parties are like, but I'd personally be getting involved in the smaller parties that reflect my ideology and try to build them up in the best way possible.

    America is kind of fucked up politically, but stranger shit has happened.

    And if it encourages you, one way to score records is to pool records from party supporters in an auction to raise money for the party. And you can keep a few goodies for yourself

  • twoplytwoply 2,903 Posts
    I do blame you for not trying to change the situation.

    Again, is Jeff expressing any opposition to affecting change in society? Or is he saying he feels that voting is no longer an effective enough use of one's voice?

  • BsidesBsides 4,244 Posts
    faux-rills says i am not educated enough about politics to vote. So i will be staying away from the ballot box this time.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,518 Posts
    my 70 year old mom has been working ten hours a day for the last month talking to poorly informed, lackadaisacal, cynical and apolitical people ...trying to get them to vote on tuesday.
    Thank you, I would like to say a word about my mom. My 81 year old mom is running the Southern Arizona campaign for Attorney General Terry Goddard. (So AZ strutters, get out there and vote.) She has worked for countless good politicians for 6 decades who have lost. Goddard is one of the very few people she has supported who has won. Never did she give up and let the forces of evil take over.

    She broke her elbow last week and is now in a hand to shoulder cast, so say something nice about my mom.

  • twoplytwoply 2,903 Posts
    my 70 year old mom has been working ten hours a day for the last month talking to poorly informed, lackadaisacal, cynical and apolitical people ...trying to get them to vote on tuesday.

    Thank you, I would like to say a word about my mom. My 81 year old mom is running the Southern Arizona campaign for Attorney General Terry Goddard. (So AZ strutters, get out there and vote.) She has worked for countless good politicians for 6 decades who have lost. Goddard is one of the very few people she has supported who has won. Never did she give up and let the forces of evil take over.

    She broke her elbow last week and is now in a hand to shoulder cast, so say something nice about my mom.

    Dan, I mean absolutely no disrespect to you, Tony, or your respective mothers, but these are some highly fallacious arguments. Everyone you love and admire could be fighting for what they believe in, but at no point in time does that mean anyone else has to believe in the same things. Using shame and peer pressure to get people to vote seems pretty underhanded and disrespectful to me.

    I hope your mother recovers quickly.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,518 Posts
    my 70 year old mom has been working ten hours a day for the last month talking to poorly informed, lackadaisacal, cynical and apolitical people ...trying to get them to vote on tuesday.

    Thank you, I would like to say a word about my mom. My 81 year old mom is running the Southern Arizona campaign for Attorney General Terry Goddard. (So AZ strutters, get out there and vote.) She has worked for countless good politicians for 6 decades who have lost. Goddard is one of the very few people she has supported who has won. Never did she give up and let the forces of evil take over.

    She broke her elbow last week and is now in a hand to shoulder cast, so say something nice about my mom.


    Dan, I mean absolutely no disrespect to you, Tony, or your respective mothers, but these are some highly fallacious arguments. Everyone you love and admire could be fighting for what they believe in, but at no point in time does that mean anyone else has to believe in the same things. Using shame and peer pressure to get people to vote seems pretty underhanded and disrespectful to me.

    I hope your mother recovers quickly.
    I learned guilt tripping from my mom, so no doubt, I am guilty as charged.

    My point is not to shame anyone. My point is that I believe in working toward a better world. I try to do that in my life. I want other people to do that in their lives. (I can't do it alone.) Voting is one small (but important) part of that. I have tried to spell out ways that voting makes a difference. I have also tried to explain what it means in my life. I suppose that is pressure, and I am a peer, so for that I wont apologize.

    When it comes to voting I have no respect for apathy or cynicism. I don't care if you vote with me or against me, it is the act of voting that is important.

  • bull_oxbull_ox 5,056 Posts
    There was a study in CA this year that said only 15% of the state's voters determine elections. This group tends to be old, retired, college educated, wealthy and white. This in a state that is 51% minority and young. Not voting empowers this small minority to have a large influence over the government at the expense of the majority.

    This is exactly my point. If everyone who COULD vote DID, we would have a far different government right now.

    Those in power put effort into making sure those they don't agree with do not vote, and every voter we lose to apathy is a blow to the system.

    If you're really unhappy with your single vote, why not try to get several other nonvoters to participate? Because you're really just shooting yourself in the foot by opting out...



  • When it comes to voting I have little respect for apathy or cynicism. I don't care if you vote with me or against me, it is the act of voting that is important.



  • Dan, I mean absolutely no disrespect to you, Tony, or your respective mothers, but these are some highly fallacious arguments. Everyone you love and admire could be fighting for what they believe in, but at no point in time does that mean anyone else has to believe in the same things. Using shame and peer pressure to get people to vote seems pretty underhanded and disrespectful to me.

    twop, it wasnt necesarily an argument as an expression of my lack of appreciation. crink letting the world know he's concerned about american politics enough to not want to be involved at all is a cop out in my book. id understand if he said, "i never stopped to think about politics and it never crossed my mind to vote". but instead of doing something about the problems he's so disgusted by, my man spends most of his day on the internet or in thrift stores. that = cop out. a retreat into his comfortable little world.

    please note that i never tried to convince my man to vote. Just voicing that i dont have much respect for that cop out argument. i offered the example of my mom since she is disgusted by most politicians as well, but sees every election as a chance for citizens to influence the political process. she makes her vote count more by getting out the vote and talking to people about the issues that concern her most.

    i'm actually very interested in seeing how things turn out
    one love,t

  • twoplytwoply 2,903 Posts
    I guess I misread what you were saying.

    I still think that Crink is not so much talking about retreating into his own "comfortable world" (which I'm not so sure he finds all that comfortable), so much as questioning the value of adhering to a system that appears to become exponentially more insidious and corrupt every election year.

    It's comments like this that make me more inclined to see things his way:

    I don't care if you vote with me or against me, it is the act of voting that is important.


    To me this implies a stronger respect for those who vote to cut social services, create tax breaks for the rich, and deny basic rights to American citizens, than for those who oppose all of the above out of respect for society and humanity, but feel particpating in a flawed system is not the best way to make a difference.

    It sounds eerily similar to a lot of right wing propaganda (e.g. "My Country, Right Or Wrong").

  • hcrinkhcrink 8,729 Posts

    I don't care if you vote with me or against me, it is the act of voting that is important.


    To me this implies a stronger respect for those who vote to cut social services, create tax breaks for the rich, and deny basic rights to American citizens, than for those who oppose all of the above out of respect for society and humanity, but feel particpating in a flawed system is not the best way to make a difference.

    It sounds eerily similar to a lot of right wing propaganda (e.g. "My Country, Right Or Wrong").

    It also makes it sound like some sort of symbolic holy communion type thing.

    Anyhow, how does giving up on a broken political system make me someone who is giving up on community, or America, etc? How does not voting open my life up to an abyss of apathy and squalor? I just feel like as long as I'm playing their game, the outcome can't help but always be geared toward the best interests of someone else. Politics is not about normal people. It's about ridiculously abstracted versions of what somebody thinks certain groups of people should be like. I just don't see why you guys have so much invested in a system not made for you. This is not Thomas Jefferson's democracy anymore. And seriously, what the hell are you guys doing other than a lot of brow-beating and arm-chair politicing on the internet?

  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts
    Dan, I like you, think you are a smart guy, and agree with you politically. I'm honestly not looking to fight with you on this. But do you honestly believe things are going to improve in this country? Not whether they could improve, but whether they actually will? I live in a state where Arnold the Terminator is going to be "re-elected" as our fucking governor. This will happen regardless of how I feel or what I do. I have voted for Presidents that probably won the last two elections. Did that do any good?

    Arnold is not a great govenor. He is a lot better than Ronald Reagon who killed James Rector because people were trying to build a park. Before Reagon sent in the police he said "If there has to be a bloodbath, then let's get it over with"
    Will your vote change the world and make everything better tomorrow? Never. But voting has given California govenors better than Arnold in the past, and they have also given California govenors worse than Arnold. History happens on scales that are bigger than tomorrow and larger than one vote.

    There are 300 million people in this country, you have but one vote. There are some many 100s of thousands of people in your county, city, water district and you only have one vote.

    I believe that we all must do what we can to make the world a better place. Things have been better and they have been worse. They will get better, they will get worse. Your vote will make very little difference. It is just one of the many things we have to do to make the world better.

    My state senator, Avel Gordly, is a great person who I wish would run for mayor, or govenor or senator. She has made a big difference in the state capitol and is not owned by corporations. I voted for her. She would have won without my one vote, but it was still important to me to register my vote. Likewise 2 years ago we elected a school board of hardworking individuals who care and understand the problems. Our schools are better for it. They wont end the war in Iraq, but they make Portland a little better.

    Please do write in Dick Gregory, you will have made your statement. It wont make front page news, Arnold will still be elected, but it is your official statement on the subject. If that is not enough for you write a letter to your local paper telling them why you voted for Gregory. If that is not enough, get as many of your friends to vote for Gregory. To paraphrase Arlo Guthrie: If one person does it they will think he is a nut, if two people do it they will think they are both nuts, if three people do it the will think it is a conspiracy, if 50 people do it they will think it is a movement. That is what it is; the Hcrink write in Dick Gregory Movement.

    , Avel has some questionable stances, particularly on a women's right to choose and her support of Republican asshole Gordon Smith. I think that she is a decent politician but she ain't no Deborah Kafoury.


  • I don't care if you vote with me or against me, it is the act of voting that is important.


    To me this implies a stronger respect for those who vote to cut social services, create tax breaks for the rich, and deny basic rights to American citizens, than for those who oppose all of the above out of respect for society and humanity, but feel particpating in a flawed system is not the best way to make a difference.

    It sounds eerily similar to a lot of right wing propaganda (e.g. "My Country, Right Or Wrong").

    It also makes it sound like some sort of symbolic holy communion type thing.

    Anyhow, how does giving up on a broken political system make me someone who is giving up on community, or America, etc? How does not voting open my life up to an abyss of apathy and squalor? I just feel like as long as I'm playing their game, the outcome can't help but always be geared toward the best interests of someone else. Politics is not about normal people. It's about ridiculously abstracted versions of what somebody thinks certain groups of people should be like.

    crink. you are acting like politicians have not accomplished anything, ever. politics is VERY much about normal people. maybe not george w dude in washington, and maybe not a lot of congress. but on the local level there are a lot of very run of the mill people running for offices and council seats. politicians are voted onto school boards and influence what books our kids read and how money is divied out.local judges can directly affect the lives of your neighbors and friends. you are making ludicrous statements. maybe your only exposure to your suburban politicians is on tv, but out here, i run into my elected reps in supermarkets, on the street, etc. Recently, one of our councilmen was a force in getting smoking banned in bars. This is just one example out of millions how philly politicos affect my life for better or worse.
    local politics affects us in many ways. but they also bigger political movements. republicans in the early 90s did a lot of grassroots work (filling school board positions,etc) in order ot build the momentum for the '94 take over of congress. they werent frustrated by years of losing to the dems...they patiently built up their infrastructure, fine tuned their messages, influenced media, infiltrated churches and......BOOM! republican country.

    I just don't see why you guys have so much invested in a system not made for you. And seriously, what the hell are you guys doing other than a lot of brow-beating and arm-chair politicing on the internet?
    dont get it twisted. we are both white males and this system was indeed made for us. i guarantee you that you benefit from the opportunities that this political system sets aside for us. some of these benefits come at the expense of other people and other parts of the world. (you like inexpensive gas? what about inexpensive food?) If you are cool with that, kick back and enjoy. I think its weak, so i would rather try to vote,speak and act on how i would like the world to be. If everyone else thinks differently, at least i spoke up.

    and what the hell am i doing about it? dude, i live my life to try to make what small difference i can. i work with youth, got community involvements, and got plans for so much more. you want a resume, pm me. Aint nothing stellar, but i keep myself busy, motivated and energized by being loyal to my values. Voting once a year is only one small part. I try to vote every time that i open my wallet. I vote my values every time i buy a bike at a flea market to give to a friend. even if i dont see any effect for my efforts, i know that i lived with integrity and passion.

    dont try to flip this back in my face. you announced to everyone that you were disgusted by politics and voting but too pussy to do anything about it. you expect me to not get on your case?


    -t

  • DrWuDrWu 4,021 Posts

    This is not Thomas Jefferson's democracy anymore.

    Oh yeah, the one were the founding father's punted on ending slavery, only allowing property owners to vote and breaking every treaty they ever signed with native peoples on this continent. I miss the good old days.

    Politics is compromise. It is rare that we get to vote for someone at the national level who really represents our interests. It's a big country.

    The arguments for voting in local elections and on ballot measures make a lot of sense to me.

    I say write in Dick Gregory and look for the votes that you can get behind.


  • I don't care if you vote with me or against me, it is the act of voting that is important.


    To me this implies a stronger respect for those who vote to cut social services, create tax breaks for the rich, and deny basic rights to American citizens, than for those who oppose all of the above out of respect for society and humanity, but feel particpating in a flawed system is not the best way to make a difference.

    It sounds eerily similar to a lot of right wing propaganda (e.g. "My Country, Right Or Wrong").
    Ian, as long as those people who dont want to participate in a flawed system find a better way to make a difference! I respect proactive dissidents, not motherfuckers who complain and drop out, leaving the problems for someone else to solve.


    and in a way, i do have a stronger respect for those who cast votes against my views. at least they voted. should i not respect them for voting what they believe in? i respect that shit. i respect that republicans are very consistent voters and have strong "Get out the vote" machines. we have a lot to learn from how they organize. they sit at phone banks and do all that shit. what is crink gonna do? go look for records. aint doing a damn thing. who do you have more respect for?

    and you sound idiotic comparing what dan said to right wing propaganda. sorry.


  • This is not Thomas Jefferson's democracy anymore.

    Oh yeah, the one were the founding father's punted on ending slavery, only allowing property owners to vote and breaking every treaty they ever signed with native peoples on this continent. I miss the good old days.

    Politics is compromise. It is rare that we get to vote for someone at the national level who really represents our interests. It's a big country.

    The arguments for voting in local elections and on ballot measures make a lot of sense to me.

    I say write in Dick Gregory and look for the votes that you can get behind.




    much less venomous than my posts and very on point.
    Dick Gregory for Governor!

  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,032 Posts
    I'd also add - if you're really serious about dropping out of the system, then you should also stop paying taxes, stop buying anything (since sales tax funds the gov't, unless you move to Oregon), and find a way to remove yourself from any social system that may benefit from your simple existence. If not voting is meant to be a passive form of protest there are other, active ways, to register a sense of outrage. Throwing one's hands up is understandable, especially in these times, but if that's the end of the "protest" then I'd have to agree with the general opinion that it's weak as hell.

    Voting is not a panacea. Neither is not voting.

  • Gotta say Im with crink here.

    My right to vote is also my right NOT to vote. That's the great thing about our country...

    Choice.

  • twoplytwoply 2,903 Posts
    and what the hell am i doing about it? dude, i live my life to try to make what small difference i can. i work with youth, got community involvements, and got plans for so much more. you want a resume, pm me. Aint nothing stellar, but i keep myself busy, motivated and energized by being loyal to my values. Voting once a year is only one small part. I try to vote every time that i open my wallet. I vote my values every time i buy a bike at a flea market to give to a friend. even if i dont see any effect for my efforts, i know that i lived with integrity and passion.

    *I'm editing this post to highlight the positive instead of arguing about the negative

    This is the realist shit in this thread, Tony. I think these actions and values you describe are so much more important to me than casting what often amounts to a symbolic gesture. I feel more real, more in tune with humanity when I am interacting with people and communities. I can't speak for Jeff, but personally I don't feel that voting can hold a candle to working with children, trying to help them find themselves and become better people, or building housing and communtiy gardens in low-income neighborhoods (something you're possibly too modest to bring up your involvement with), or simply treating friends, strangers, family as real human beings with valid feelings and ideas.

    Regardless of what we disagree on, your actions and attitudes regarding such acts of goodwill will always earn my deepest respect and admiration.

  • twoplytwoply 2,903 Posts
    I'd also add - if you're really serious about dropping out of the system, then you should also stop paying taxes, stop buying anything (since sales tax funds the gov't, unless you move to Oregon), and find a way to remove yourself from any social system that may benefit from your simple existence. If not voting is meant to be a passive form of protest there are other, active ways, to register a sense of outrage. Throwing one's hands up is understandable, especially in these times, but if that's the end of the "protest" then I'd have to agree with the general opinion that it's weak as hell.

    Voting is not a panacea. Neither is not voting.

    Jesus, dude. Way to put not just words, but an entire philosophy into someone's mouth. Why do people get so defensive when someone asks questions?

  • The head of urban outfitters is super right wing - like, to the right of Cheney. To the right of Dominos pizza. All of those t-shirts that are supposed to be ironic are actually not at all so.

    in 2004 he ran shirts that said something to the effect of "Why vote, who cares?"

    That is what these people want young folks and people with more left of center views to think. The more of us that don't vote, the more the old, wealthy, conservative, heartless people get their way in Washington and the more this country will continue to be in the hands of rich white men.

    I'm not voting tomorrow, because I really do not know even the beginning of who is running or what's on the ballot. I believe in knowing what you're voting for. But I'm also really embarassed about it and will not let it happen again.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,873 Posts
    All I would say is. If you pay taxes, you should vote. Maybe not federal, but anything local you should really make it out to vote. You really do have a say and your vote counts there.

    Side note. Anyone see the thing on Rep. Jeff Flake lastnight on 60 Mins? I have no idea what his stances are on alot of things, but I wish there were more dudes like him trying to change things out there.

  • so much more important to me than casting what often amounts to a symbolic gesture.
    but it is more than a symbolic gesture. you are raising your hand and saying "here to represent my demographic" if more 18-25 year olds voted, politicians would tke notice and pander to that constituency.


    I feel more real, more in tune with humanity when I am interacting with people and communities. I can't speak for Jeff, but personally I don't feel that voting can hold a candle to working with children, etc
    maybe not, but it is still another forum for change, however flawed it may be. if democrats gain control of congress, you dont think there will be an immediate impact on all the committees that are going to have no chairpeople? democrats deserve scrutiny and suspicion, like any politiican, but you wont have as many foxes guarding henhouses. take a guy like Paul Wellstone (r.i.p) and tell me that it isnt important to vote. would shirley chisholm have gotten elected if new yorkers decided that their one vote wouldnt influence a naitonal election?
    the beauty of your one vote, is that you are part of a mass movement of people going to the polls (regardless of poor turnout) and you are casting your lot in with what their consensus is counted to be. its a little self centered to think "well, who i want wont always get elected"...voters participate in a huge, collective decision making process.

  • The head of urban outfitters is super right wing - like, to the right of Cheney. To the right of Dominos pizza. All of those t-shirts that are supposed to be ironic are actually not at all so.

    in 2004 he ran shirts that said something to the effect of "Why vote, who cares?"

    That is what these people want young folks and people with more left of center views to think. The more of us that don't vote, the more the old, wealthy, conservative, heartless people get their way in Washington and the more this country will continue to be in the hands of rich white men.

    I'm not voting tomorrow, because I really do not know even the beginning of who is running or what's on the ballot. I believe in knowing what you're voting for. But I'm also really embarassed about it and will not let it happen again.


    Dude, I am sure your state elections commission has a web site that breaks down where the different candidates stand on the issues. Take a few minutes and get familiar. Then you won't have to feel embarrassed and you can go and vote.

  • SwayzeSwayze 14,705 Posts
    i'm not going to add too much to this thread other than i am thinking of voting for some of the socialist candidates here in pa.

  • white_teawhite_tea 3,262 Posts
    I early-voted last week in suburban Cook County, Ill. Only about two of the races was I trying to send a message:

    1.) Write-in candidate for Cook County board president

    2.) Voted down local library referendum because they're getting a little greedy with a decent sized tax hike

  • hcrinkhcrink 8,729 Posts

    This is not Thomas Jefferson's democracy anymore.

    Oh yeah, the one were the founding father's punted on ending slavery, only allowing property owners to vote and breaking every treaty they ever signed with native peoples on this continent. I miss the good old days.

    haha! OK, maybe it still is.

    And how exactly did this get from me not voting to me watching too much TV (I even don't own a working TV), doing nothing but buying records, guzzling cheap gas, etc? You people really have no idea what I do or don't do other than reading my posts here. You are constructing a person based on how you feel about what I say about mostly records and making smart ass remarks. Most of you posting on this have never met me, or even so much as conversed with me via email/PM.

    It's also super funny that all you guys have as a examples of "politics working" are fascists rallying themselves together to win school boards and shit. I don't believe people that want decent things in this country can be whipped up into a demonic jesus based voting frenzy. And I'm kinda glad they can't be.

  • white_teawhite_tea 3,262 Posts
    If most the young and jaded folks banded together, we could run things. I bet for every person on this board that votes, they each have like 10 friends who don't. I can count my friends that vote with my middle finger.

  • i'm not going to add too much to this thread other than i am thinking of voting for some of the socialist candidates here in pa.

    youre a fucking scumbag.

  • hcrinkhcrink 8,729 Posts
    If most the young and jaded folks banded together, we could run things.

    I have heard this about a trillion times. the thing is it won't happen. the people who can be banded together to vote do it out of fear and can be rounded up like sheep. Tell enough people that the X evil foreign immigrants of the moment are taking over America and spreading non-christian thoughts and you'll have them lined up for miles. everyone else could give a shit. Call it apathy if you like, but I don't believe that covers it.
Sign In or Register to comment.