I think it's our desire to have all of our "stars" on the team.....while teams like Greece are well-rounded, fundamentally sound and have played together for years.
The Carmelo's and Lebron's are not gonna hustle and dive out of bounds for balls or play the tough "D".
From the looks of the game last night no one in the NBA knows how to defend a simple pick and roll!!!
co-sign.
At its very core NBA basketball is an extension of the street game. That is where the top home grown players learn the fundamentals. This is much less the case outside of the US. European basketball adopted the mantra that a team should be much greater than the sum of its individual constituents parts. Over the last decade the skill level of individual international players has reached a level such, that whilst in the main they are consistently below that in the US, the sum is sufficiently greater than USA teams.
Where the current 'Team USA' is falling down is in the 'Team' part its name. In soccer we consistently see national teams of rich, talented overpaid egos loose out to less talented groups of well organised, drilled & coached teams. A case in point was two years ago, when the winner of the European soccer championship was Greece. I could not name you a single player on that team, as they were all average journeymen players at a club level. But as a unit, they were hugely successfull.
The US has realised that and started to change its approach to these international competitions. But if history is anything to go buy, that boat has sailed. I doubt you will get back to former glories. The street game structure & fundamentals within the US will put paid to that.
Inventing a sport, turning it into a national pastime, promoting then exporting it, only to be regulalrly thrashed by countries who have adopted it as their own, is something we Brits have in itself turned into a national pastime. So welcome to our world.
i really don't agree with this at all. the problem we've been having more than anything else is that the international game is much different from the nba game in terms of rules and officiating, so what makes our players so great individually in the league doesn't necessarily translate to fiba. frankly, i don't like the way the international game is called. they think it's soccer. i'm not wild about nba officiating either - it's way too star-friendly - but to assume that nba players don't play fundamental ball is really missing the point. our roster this time around was full of guys who play great team ball - paul, hinrich, battier, brand, lebron, wade, miller, howard ... and none of them grew up playing streetball like you say. and even though there are some great international players in the nba, the opposite holds true to a large extent. a player like sarunas jasikevicius, for example, was a huge star in the euroleague but a good role player at best in the nba. and there are too many lower level guys who come over who can't even crack their respective rotations to name. it's just two different games ... and yeah, the usa is still making the transition to that, so we're seeing some growing pains right now. plus the officials hate us.
I think in the next 10+ years, your gonna start seeing a major increase in players from around the world almost taking over the NBA. It's slowly been happening.
The international players is already here. A good third of the L is foreign.Maybe even more.
true, but the US guys still go overseas and make the most money. there are some great overseas players but i have friends who were bench players in college that are making good money in europe. basketball is better over here, there is no question about that. however, there is obviously a huge improvement in international play, and perhaps a decline in our "team game."
And in my opinion the reason our game is on the downslide and the Non-U.S. players are starting to dominate can be summed up in one word...
Fundamentals
Growing up in the U.S. the homies don't give a crap if you can hit a free throw but doing that 720 dunk is solid gold!!
OK I need to type faster, my point put much more succinctly.
you guys watch too many and-1 videos. individual skill level is at its highest ever. the fact that these guys play one-on-one basketball says nothing about their ability. kids are getting professional training at the middle school level through AAU and camps and are better than ever. the result is man-child monsters like lebron.
the nba has been WATERED DOWN via expansion. it will never be what it was in the 80s because there are too many players. accordingly, you also have guys being traded left and right as teams are constantly trying to rebuild in order to compete. team ball still exists, ask the pistons, spurs, mavs and suns. there is just less of it due to dilution.
I have to disagree on the quality of fundamentals being taught here in the U.S.
let's just take free throws....and we all know free throws win and lose more games than any other single skill set.
3 of the top 4 free throw shooters in the NBA are not Americans
Young and old stars alike shooting under 80%...here are a few examples... Lebron 73% Dwayne Wade Paul Pierce Elton Brand Vince Carter Chris Webber Antawn Jamison Joe Johnson......all of them under 80%
How about one of the young up and coming stars of the league Dwight Howard 59% While Yao Ming is shooting 85%
There are some exceptions on free throws like Tony Parker and Tim Duncan(who may be the most fundamentally sound player in the league) but overall I don't think there is any question that the Euro/Foriegn player is more fundamentally sound...and in most cases they HAVE to be because they are not blessed with the crazy athleticism of a player like Jason Richardson....who by the way shoots free throws in the mid 60%'s
The most salient point in this thread is that if you put the Miami Heat (or really any NBA championship team) up against any european squad you know what will happen.
I think American baseball is far less convincing as far as world championship teams go.
I think it's our desire to have all of our "stars" on the team.....while teams like Greece are well-rounded, fundamentally sound and have played together for years.
The Carmelo's and Lebron's are not gonna hustle and dive out of bounds for balls or play the tough "D".
From the looks of the game last night no one in the NBA knows how to defend a simple pick and roll!!!
1) YES. While all everyone wants to talk about is the stat line. FUCK THE STAT LINE. Executives make dumb acquisitions because of stat lines. Most players in today's league make too much money to care about giving it their all in a game, except for players like KG, AI, KB, and AK.
2) I see an AWFUL LOT of dribbling by one dude on the perimeter, and not enough passing. That's why the offense is so damn predictable and so damn boring for fans to watch. This is during the regular NBA season too.
3) There's a reason for establishing the NBA Development League. But from the looks of things, if you can score, you can be in the league!
Bottom line: Chris Bosh, Antawn Jamison, Brad Miller? LOL Are you fuckin' kidding me. (see: David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley). The world has gotten better, and also has exposed the US's vulnerabilities.
I think a good marketing scheme to inject some life into the NBA All-Star Game is to have a U.S. against the World game one year just to make it interesting.
This would be a tough team to beat.....
Tim Duncan Dirk Steve Nash Yao Ming Manu Ginobli Tony Parker Peja Pau Gasol
it's just two different games ... and yeah, the usa is still making the transition to that, so we're seeing some growing pains right now. plus the officials hate us.
That's gibberish.
more fundamentally sound...and in most cases they HAVE to be because they are not blessed with the crazy athleticism of a player like Jason Richardson....
Truth. I know from experience. The impression I get is that many athletic scorers aren't really looking for the best shot for the team, which you only get by efficient ball rotation. And when you're not shooting the ball, your ass should be boxing people out. It's basketball 101, and it's what seperates good players from great.
Why have you little dudes FORCED our resident basketball scientist to stress these FACTS over and over?
How many times must he WORK you for you to get these FACTS through your heads?
apparently most fans and commentators were satisfied with this squad from day one. "Okay, so finally we have a TEAM" LOL. I was skeptical from day one.
I have to disagree on the quality of fundamentals being taught here in the U.S.
let's just take free throws....and we all know free throws win and lose more games than any other single skill set.
3 of the top 4 free throw shooters in the NBA are not Americans
[AI Voice] Free throws?!?? Were talking about Free throws here, right??" [AI Voice]
Seriousy dude, you gotta come with something better than foul shots. Yes, they are important but I know at least a half-dozen out-of-shape-has-beens from my gym that can still shoot 90% from the line. should i recommend they hit the nba draft camps?
I have to disagree on the quality of fundamentals being taught here in the U.S.
let's just take free throws....and we all know free throws win and lose more games than any other single skill set.
3 of the top 4 free throw shooters in the NBA are not Americans
[AI Voice] Free throws?!?? Were talking about Free throws here, right??" [AI Voice]
Seriousy dude, you gotta come with something better than foul shots. Yes, they are important but I know at least a half-dozen out-of-shape-has-beens from my gym that can still shoot 90% from the line. should i recommend they hit the nba draft camps?
So if an out of shape has been(like me) can shoot 90% why can't a multi million dollar pro star hit 80% if it's not poor fundamentals???
I have to disagree on the quality of fundamentals being taught here in the U.S.
let's just take free throws....and we all know free throws win and lose more games than any other single skill set.
3 of the top 4 free throw shooters in the NBA are not Americans
[AI Voice] Free throws?!?? Were talking about Free throws here, right??" [AI Voice]
Seriousy dude, you gotta come with something better than foul shots. Yes, they are important but I know at least a half-dozen out-of-shape-has-beens from my gym that can still shoot 90% from the line. should i recommend they hit the nba draft camps?
So if an out of shape has been(like me) can shoot 90% why can't a multi million dollar pro star hit 80% if it's not poor fundamentals???
first, i doubt that ft % has significantly decreased if you look at it by position v. position. second, even if it has, one explanation is that we now have really tall guys (with really big hands) playing all positions. its just harder for a dude with monster hands to shoot free throws...just take a look at shaq, its like he is throwing a ping pong ball.
finally, with the addition of the three point line, players need to practice shooting from all over the court. before the three point line, you had guys like rick barry and jerry west shooting long distance, but the majority of the league was played within 15 feet of the hoop. so guys never had to worry about practicing anything much farther than a foul shot. accordingly, it was like second nature.
its still a disgrace that guards can shoot under 70%, but the dudes who shoot that poorly usually make up for it w/ other aspects of their game.
I have to disagree on the quality of fundamentals being taught here in the U.S.
let's just take free throws....and we all know free throws win and lose more games than any other single skill set.
3 of the top 4 free throw shooters in the NBA are not Americans
[AI Voice] Free throws?!?? Were talking about Free throws here, right??" [AI Voice]
Seriousy dude, you gotta come with something better than foul shots. Yes, they are important but I know at least a half-dozen out-of-shape-has-beens from my gym that can still shoot 90% from the line. should i recommend they hit the nba draft camps?
So if an out of shape has been(like me) can shoot 90% why can't a multi million dollar pro star hit 80% if it's not poor fundamentals???
first, i doubt that ft % has significantly decreased if you look at it by position v. position. second, even if it has, one explanation is that we now have really tall guys (with really big hands) playing all positions. its just harder for a dude with monster hands to shoot free throws...just take a look at shaq, its like he is throwing a ping pong ball.
finally, with the addition of the three point line, players need to practice shooting from all over the court. before the three point line, you had guys like rick barry and jerry west shooting long distance, but the majority of the league was played within 15 feet of the hoop. so guys never had to worry about practicing anything much farther than a foul shot. accordingly, it was like second nature.
its still a disgrace that guards can shoot under 70%, but the dudes who shoot that poorly usually make up for it w/ other aspects of their game.
Sorry for harping on the free throw issue as there are certainly other fundamentals to the game.
But that "hands are too big" excuse is just that, an excuse. Dirk at 7 feet shoots over 90% and Yao Ming is at 85% and he's the biggest mofo I've ever seen.
The Poster Boy for my argument is Karl Malone....dude couldn't hit a Free Throw in College and in his early years but he worked at it and became a darn good shooter before he retired.
While I agree that many poor free throw shooters make up for it in other ways, I can't really think of a reason why some hard work and practice couldn't turn every pro player out there into at LEAST an 80% FT shooter....they just don't place a high value on it and most coaches at the below NBA level don't either as they are able to win at those levels on sheer athleticism.
I go to my state's High School Tournament every March and even at that level the well coached, pick and roll, run a play teams are good Free Throw shooters while the athletic run and gun, dunk in your face teams are not.
Athleticism and height are the two biggest skills that the NBA looks for and Free Throw shooting is way down on the list. But I'm betting that Greek National team shoots over 80% as a team!!!
But I'm betting that Greek National team shoots over 80% as a team!!!
69% (23/33) in yesterday's game.
Drewn....you're right on the money....I would have lost that bet as the Greek Team only shot 71% in the Tourney so far....Germany and China are over 80% while the U.S. is at 68%
don't forget we'll also have kobe bryant playing for us in 2008 and you know that fool is going to bring gold home
You F'in know it. The second best player in the world right now will not let this happen again. A seasoned vet, something this USA team was sorely lacking:
You F'in know it. The second best player in the world right now will not let this happen again.
Who is the best player in the world right now?
Dwyane Wade
Would that have been your choice if the Heat hadn't won the World Championship this year?
Seriously.
I am surprised at Yuichi. Is he telling us that DWade would have done more with that Lakers lineup than Kobe did?
Is he suggesting that Wade's Jordan-like ability to sway the refs makes him the overall best in the game?
These do not sound like the comments of somebody who has considered the matter from every angle, applying all necessary pressure (as well as heat and caustic chemicals) and shaking and stirring, the way a true basketball scientist would.
You F'in know it. The second best player in the world right now will not let this happen again.
Who is the best player in the world right now?
Dwyane Wade
Would that have been your choice if the Heat hadn't won the World Championship this year?
No, ofcourse not. But his domination in that post-season run was uncanny. I really hadn't seen anybody single-handedly take a championship like he did. The real deal, and almost by default he gets the title of best playa in the world (currently).
And surely, you mean the NBA[/b] Championship because apparently the NBA is not up to World standards.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Is he suggesting that Wade's Jordan-like ability to sway the refs makes him the overall best in the game?
I hope that when you say "sway the refs" that you mean driving the lane with the quickness and fearlessly taking it to the hole like a champ.
Comments
i really don't agree with this at all. the problem we've been having more than anything else is that the international game is much different from the nba game in terms of rules and officiating, so what makes our players so great individually in the league doesn't necessarily translate to fiba. frankly, i don't like the way the international game is called. they think it's soccer. i'm not wild about nba officiating either - it's way too star-friendly - but to assume that nba players don't play fundamental ball is really missing the point. our roster this time around was full of guys who play great team ball - paul, hinrich, battier, brand, lebron, wade, miller, howard ... and none of them grew up playing streetball like you say. and even though there are some great international players in the nba, the opposite holds true to a large extent. a player like sarunas jasikevicius, for example, was a huge star in the euroleague but a good role player at best in the nba. and there are too many lower level guys who come over who can't even crack their respective rotations to name. it's just two different games ... and yeah, the usa is still making the transition to that, so we're seeing some growing pains right now. plus the officials hate us.
I have to disagree on the quality of fundamentals being taught here in the U.S.
let's just take free throws....and we all know free throws win and lose more games than any other single skill set.
3 of the top 4 free throw shooters in the NBA are not Americans
Young and old stars alike shooting under 80%...here are a few examples...
Lebron 73%
Dwayne Wade
Paul Pierce
Elton Brand
Vince Carter
Chris Webber
Antawn Jamison
Joe Johnson......all of them under 80%
How about one of the young up and coming stars of the league Dwight Howard 59%
While Yao Ming is shooting 85%
There are some exceptions on free throws like Tony Parker and Tim Duncan(who may be the most fundamentally sound player in the league) but overall I don't think there is any question that the Euro/Foriegn player is more fundamentally sound...and in most cases they HAVE to be because they are not blessed with the crazy athleticism of a player like Jason Richardson....who by the way shoots free throws in the mid 60%'s
I think American baseball is far less convincing as far as world championship teams go.
1) YES. While all everyone wants to talk about is the stat line. FUCK THE STAT LINE. Executives make dumb acquisitions because of stat lines. Most players in today's league make too much money to care about giving it their all in a game, except for players like KG, AI, KB, and AK.
2) I see an AWFUL LOT of dribbling by one dude on the perimeter, and not enough passing. That's why the offense is so damn predictable and so damn boring for fans to watch. This is during the regular NBA season too.
3) There's a reason for establishing the NBA Development League. But from the looks of things, if you can score, you can be in the league!
Bottom line: Chris Bosh, Antawn Jamison, Brad Miller? LOL Are you fuckin' kidding me. (see: David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley). The world has gotten better, and also has exposed the US's vulnerabilities.
Why have you little dudes FORCED our resident basketball scientist to stress these FACTS over and over?
How many times must he WORK you for you to get these FACTS through your heads?
This would be a tough team to beat.....
Tim Duncan
Dirk
Steve Nash
Yao Ming
Manu Ginobli
Tony Parker
Peja
Pau Gasol
And where was that Kobe guy born????
That's gibberish.
Truth. I know from experience. The impression I get is that many athletic scorers aren't really looking for the best shot for the team, which you only get by efficient ball rotation. And when you're not shooting the ball, your ass should be boxing people out. It's basketball 101, and it's what seperates good players from great.
Dude cut him some slack....he's agreeing with me
apparently most fans and commentators were satisfied with this squad from day one. "Okay, so finally we have a TEAM" LOL. I was skeptical from day one.
[AI Voice] Free throws?!?? Were talking about Free throws here, right??" [AI Voice]
Seriousy dude, you gotta come with something better than foul shots. Yes, they are important but I know at least a half-dozen out-of-shape-has-beens from my gym that can still shoot 90% from the line. should i recommend they hit the nba draft camps?
So if an out of shape has been(like me) can shoot 90% why can't a multi million dollar pro star hit 80% if it's not poor fundamentals???
first, i doubt that ft % has significantly decreased if you look at it by position v. position. second, even if it has, one explanation is that we now have really tall guys (with really big hands) playing all positions. its just harder for a dude with monster hands to shoot free throws...just take a look at shaq, its like he is throwing a ping pong ball.
finally, with the addition of the three point line, players need to practice shooting from all over the court. before the three point line, you had guys like rick barry and jerry west shooting long distance, but the majority of the league was played within 15 feet of the hoop. so guys never had to worry about practicing anything much farther than a foul shot. accordingly, it was like second nature.
its still a disgrace that guards can shoot under 70%, but the dudes who shoot that poorly usually make up for it w/ other aspects of their game.
Sorry for harping on the free throw issue as there are certainly other fundamentals to the game.
But that "hands are too big" excuse is just that, an excuse. Dirk at 7 feet shoots over 90% and Yao Ming is at 85% and he's the biggest mofo I've ever seen.
The Poster Boy for my argument is Karl Malone....dude couldn't hit a Free Throw in College and in his early years but he worked at it and became a darn good shooter before he retired.
While I agree that many poor free throw shooters make up for it in other ways, I can't really think of a reason why some hard work and practice couldn't turn every pro player out there into at LEAST an 80% FT shooter....they just don't place a high value on it and most coaches at the below NBA level don't either as they are able to win at those levels on sheer athleticism.
I go to my state's High School Tournament every March and even at that level the well coached, pick and roll, run a play teams are good Free Throw shooters while the athletic run and gun, dunk in your face teams are not.
Athleticism and height are the two biggest skills that the NBA looks for and Free Throw shooting is way down on the list. But I'm betting that Greek National team shoots over 80% as a team!!!
69% (23/33) in yesterday's game.
Drewn....you're right on the money....I would have lost that bet as the Greek Team only shot 71% in the Tourney so far....Germany and China are over 80% while the U.S. is at 68%
You F'in know it. The second best player in the world right now will not let this happen again. A seasoned vet, something this USA team was sorely lacking:
Who is the best player in the world right now?
Yes, plaese to expand upon this heresy.
Dwyane Wade
Would that have been your choice if the Heat hadn't won the World Championship this year?
Can I see a current top ten (in order)?
Seriously.
I am surprised at Yuichi. Is he telling us that DWade would have done more with that Lakers lineup than Kobe did?
Is he suggesting that Wade's Jordan-like ability to sway the refs makes him the overall best in the game?
These do not sound like the comments of somebody who has considered the matter from every angle, applying all necessary pressure (as well as heat and caustic chemicals) and shaking and stirring, the way a true basketball scientist would.
No, ofcourse not. But his domination in that post-season run was uncanny. I really hadn't seen anybody single-handedly take a championship like he did. The real deal, and almost by default he gets the title of best playa in the world (currently).
And surely, you mean the NBA[/b] Championship because apparently the NBA is not up to World standards.
I hope that when you say "sway the refs" that you mean driving the lane with the quickness and fearlessly taking it to the hole like a champ.
He's one of my favorite players in the game, but I do think certain refs are unfairly besotted with him.
Just what I was thinking. Argentina and them got nice jerseys. Their game is beautiful too.
wade and kobe are on the same level. lebron can do things that neither of them can based on his size and strength. any of the 3 could takeover a game.
if i had my pick it would be lebron.
kobe is my favorite to watch by far, and i emulate his swagger!