but if your choice is Hamas and Fatah, which is the lesser evil? The one that steals the aid from the people it represents, or the one that causes military incursions under the mask of "freedom"?
I think that all Oliver is saying, is that its not necessarily the people to blame so to speak, I don't see him or anyone condoning or supporting Hamas, its just not as clear of a situation as people sometimes want to make it.
I don't see any other options for the Palestinian people without 3rd party intervention, and until that happens this back and forth between the two countries will keep going.
but if your choice is Hamas and Fatah, which is the lesser evil? The one that steals the aid from the people it represents, or the one that causes military incursions under the mask of "freedom"?
I think that all Oliver is saying, is that its not necessarily the people to blame so to speak, I don't see him or anyone condoning or supporting Hamas, its just not as clear of a situation as people sometimes want to make it.
I don't see any other options for the Palestinian people without 3rd party intervention, and until that happens this back and forth between the two countries will keep going.
I mean, if corruption were truly the only reason for Hamas' support (as opposed to its violent acts against Israel, etc.), ask yourself why a less corrupt moderate and/or secular alternative has not emerged from the Palestinian political landscape.
The truth is, poll data consistently shows Palestinian support for attacks on Israeli civilians. This was especially true in the run-up to the elections that brought Hamas to power, and Hamas was quite open in using their attacks on Israeli civilians as a campaign rallying point (particularly on the college campuses of the West Bank and Gaza).
So while Fatah corruption may have played a major role, the Palis have never concealed their support for Hamas' violence.
You can make excuses for the Palestinians' support for Hamas. The Palestinians themselves, on the other hand, don't.
but if your choice is Hamas and Fatah, which is the lesser evil? The one that steals the aid from the people it represents, or the one that causes military incursions under the mask of "freedom"?
I think that all Oliver is saying, is that its not necessarily the people to blame so to speak, I don't see him or anyone condoning or supporting Hamas, its just not as clear of a situation as people sometimes want to make it.
I don't see any other options for the Palestinian people without 3rd party intervention, and until that happens this back and forth between the two countries will keep going.
Wrong. It's VERY clear. We're not talking Bush vs. Gore = lesser of two evils, we're talking Hamas vs. Fatah = both VERY evil. The only right thing to do for any human being with a conscience is to boycott the election altogether. Anything other than that is a vote for murderous thugs. Period. End of story. And if the results had been a low voter turn out, then I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the Palestinians. But of course the opposite of a boycott happened. The lines at the polls were massive. So as far as I'm concerned, the Palestinian people have spoken. Fuck em. And fuck anyone who would even consider casting a vote for either gang.
So while Fatah corruption may have played a major role, the Palis have never concealed their support for Hamas' violence.
You can make excuses for the Palestinians' support for Hamas. The Palestinians themselves, on the other hand, don't.
There were numerous reasons why Hamas came to power. One of those is that the Palestinian swindled billions in international aid to purchase hundreds of thousands of people to join Arafat???s mafia. Another reason why Hamas won the election is because the CIA and Fatah did not succeed in stealing it. Another reason is because Palestinians, for the most part, support the destruction of Israel. They are not alone in this opinion. A common graffiti slogan here is ???It???s our mosque, not their temple.??? This means no sharing of the Temple Mount. You cannot find an archeologist who graduated from an Arab University who will give any historical legitimacy to the claim that the wall is anything more than the remains of an Ottoman fortress. It means there can be no Jewish state in Dar al Islam. It is eliminationist. Hamas was created originally by the Ikwan, or Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. The brothers as a rule believe in a singular Umma, the Islamic people. But they often discuss this entity as a state with rules and even a foreign policy. So the problem is that the Umma rejects, has rejected and will likely continue to reject Israeli existence. While in Washington friendly Arab leaders will say all sorts of things about the peace process etc???, two such leaders have even signed peace agreements. But the Arab people???by and large--reject the existence of Israel.
A peace process will not change this state of affairs. But besides that, peace processes often fail. It succeeded in Northern Ireland. There is a chance it will work in Ngorno Karabach. But for the most part peace comes from victory, or the demoralization of one side. For years the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was so terrible because both sides sought the elimination of the other. So without a peace process, one of two things could happen???either Israel is driven into the sea; or following the 6-day war, the Palestinians are forced to live as second class citizens in a Jewish state. Sucked, and in that respect, Clinton???s efforts to reach a peace accord are to be applauded???even though he ended up being played by one of the twentieth century???s most notorious gangster frauds, a likely pederast and terrorist innovator.
But something quite extraordinary happened in 2004. The general who fended off Sadat???s army from Sinai, the general who allowed the philangists to cleanse Sabra and Shetilla, the politician who founded the settler movement, the only minister besides Sharansky to reject the Camp David 2 negotiations, had a change of heart. The man the Israeli left called ???the bulldozer??? became a devotee of lesser Israel. He then proceeded to actually withdraw from Gaza, and eight settlements around Jericho. He destroyed the party of greater Israel, Likud, in the process. His successor stuck with his vision and introduced money in the budget for 2006 to prepare for a massive withdrawal of all settlements in the west bank with the exception of those strategically around Jerusalem. This is like Ike Turner becoming the president of NOW. This is like Pat Robertson joining Megadeath for a tour sponsored by the national association of cock ring manufacturers.
Hamas before they were a majority in the legislature, with the complicity of PA security forces, began shelling Sderot upon the completion of disengagement. Not surprisingly, Gazans applauded these actions. For them, Zionism itself is a negation of their national existence. When they voted in droves, not even suitcases full of cash, phony USAID contracts and hopes of prayers of Europe, Japan and America, could stop them from voting for the party unabashedly for the destruction of Israel. Palestinians voted for war. War is what they wished. War is what they're getting.
Motown, I see these IDIOTS[/b] like Ann Coulter, Rush and O'Reilly who claim/appear to represent the far right in this country make ridiculous and absurd statements like "Liberalism is a mental disorder" and that the folks on the far left have such a "raging blind hatred for George Bush and everything he does that it makes them incapable of rational discourse on any matter that involves GWB". These comments are laughable at best and if they looked in the mirror they'd see the exact polar opposite.
But I gotta tell you dude, you make a damn good case for what they're saying. You do great research and present reasonable and well thought out arguments on lots of topics, but your overtly obvious seething hatred for everything GWB is disturbing. You come across like everything he does is wrong, when he doesn't do anything he's to blame and he's responsible for every single problem on the face of the earth, even those going back 1,000's of years.
Sure he sucks, but your venomous crusade against him hurts your credibility on some topics imo....and based on the posts in this thread I'd say some others happen to agree. Sorta like those Christians who blame everything bad in the world on Satan .....weak sauce.
That being said, at least everytime someone disagrees with you you don't simply resort to calling them stupid or Sabadaba, and that is much appreciated.
I am gong to try to state my view one more time than step away.
Read my post, did I say that the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier, or the Israeli incursion into Gaza was Bush's fault?
The first paragraph says that the problem for the last several years has been that no one has been pushing for any kind of negotiations. Bush's policy has been to withdraw. In my view, the U.S. is the only country that can bring the Israelies and Palestinians together. Yes, Araft nixed Oslo, yes Fatah is corrupt, yes Hamas got elected, and Israel went through a bunch of problems as well including the split of Likud, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, etc. I tried to list some of the main problems happening in both sides of this conflict. Could there have been alternatives outcomes? Maybe, and an engaged U.S. could have tried to shape things differently by continuing to push both sides rather than withdrawing. Good bye.
That being said, at least everytime someone disagrees with you you don't simply resort to calling them stupid or Sabadaba, and that is much appreciated.
Rich
For the record I have made fun of Sabada several times.
If George Bush came up with a plan or policy that brought peace in the Middle East between Paletinians and Israelis, something that no one in the history of the planet has managed to do, it would make him the single greatest man in the history of the world!!
But in a whole 6 years he has failed to do this....so SOMETHING/ANYTHING has to be his fault.
A common graffiti slogan here is ???It???s our mosque, not their temple.??? This means no sharing of the Temple Mount. You cannot find an archeologist who graduated from an Arab University who will give any historical legitimacy to the claim that the wall is anything more than the remains of an Ottoman fortress.
this schitt blows my mind.
Palestinian old-timers, particularly religious Muslims, referred to Jerusalem as "Bayt ul-Maqdis."
This is actually an Arabic version of "Beyt HaMikdash." Both mean "House of Holiness" and both refer to the ancient Jewish temple whose remains lie below today's Har Habayit ("Temple Mount"), refered to in Arabic as "Haram al-Sharif " ("Noble Sanctuary").
This Arabic name has slowly disappeared from Palestinian parlance, supplanted over the last century by "al-Quds." Why has this Arabic name for Jerusalem disappeared? It's clearly disfavored because it makes explicit reference to the Jewish temple, the existence of which they would now prefer to deny - as you rightly point out.
For years the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was so terrible because both sides sought the elimination of the other.
I wouldn't say this was ever a dominant characteristic of the Zionist movement nor a goal of any Israeli government.
But for the most part peace comes from victory, or the demoralization of one side.
And unfortunately I don't see the Israelis holding out as long as the Arabs/Muslims. You can see the seeds of self-defeat among them already.
goddamnit...can someone explain to me why...if you take too long to write a post, the server system here deletes it? I had this long ass post and then BAM, it got wiped away. I fucking hate that shit.
Here's Take 2, the shorter version:
1) Guzzo - I'm one of the few people here NOT talking in absolutes so I don't know why you're trying to quote that shit back to me.
2) Paul - I've never defended Hamas. They are bad, bad, bad. Those who voted for them, especially in the areas of the current incursion are largely reaping what they have sown. And I think Israel has every right to defend itself against terrorists firing rockets into populated civilian areas.
However, you've been misreading my point all along. Hamas won with a PLURALITY of votes in the January elections: 44 to 42% compared to Fatah. That was enough for them to win the majority of seats in the government. However, it's worth noting that the majority of Palestinian voters did not even vote for Hamas. To claim that Hamas speaks for Palestinian society is like saying the MINORITY of Americans who voted for Bush in 2000 stands for ALL of America. This has been my point all along.
3) Related to this...correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't there two major aims being pursued by different Palestinian sectors of society?
A) A Palestinian nation-state, reclamation of land, control over Jeruselum and right to return (or some combination thereof).
B) The annihilation of Israel.
I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive but does everyone who supports one also support the other? People seem to assume that Hamas' rise to power means that the whole of Palestine wants to wage a genocidal war on Israel (and to believe Paul's comparison), wipe Jews off the map globally. I think that's a rather remarkable leap in logic.
Moreover, speaking of factions, isn't there a legitmate humanitarian and political crisis waiting to be resolved in regards to Palestinian refugees that has more or less been co-opted by Islamic extremists and/or Arab nationalists who harbor anti-Zionist and/or anti-Semitic goals and have essentially masked the evil intentions of the latter by hijacking the p.r. campaign of the former? Or are most Palestinians just after the global extermination of Jews, starting with Israel?
4) Outside of this current situation, I'd like to know from both Vitamin and Paul what they think the long-term solution might be. I think Vitamin has the most informed knowledge on that question and as for Paul, he speaks so loudly from his heart, I'm curious what his heart thinks will resolve the situation in the long-term.
There were numerous reasons why Hamas came to power. One of those is that the Palestinian swindled billions in international aid to purchase hundreds of thousands of people to join Arafat???s mafia. Another reason why Hamas won the election is because the CIA and Fatah did not succeed in stealing it. Another reason is because Palestinians, for the most part, support the destruction of Israel. They are not alone in this opinion. A common graffiti slogan here is ???It???s our mosque, not their temple.??? This means no sharing of the Temple Mount. You cannot find an archeologist who graduated from an Arab University who will give any historical legitimacy to the claim that the wall is anything more than the remains of an Ottoman fortress. It means there can be no Jewish state in Dar al Islam. It is eliminationist. Hamas was created originally by the Ikwan, or Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. The brothers as a rule believe in a singular Umma, the Islamic people. But they often discuss this entity as a state with rules and even a foreign policy. So the problem is that the Umma rejects, has rejected and will likely continue to reject Israeli existence. While in Washington friendly Arab leaders will say all sorts of things about the peace process etc???, two such leaders have even signed peace agreements. But the Arab people???by and large--reject the existence of Israel.
A peace process will not change this state of affairs. But besides that, peace processes often fail. It succeeded in Northern Ireland. There is a chance it will work in Ngorno Karabach. But for the most part peace comes from victory, or the demoralization of one side. For years the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was so terrible because both sides sought the elimination of the other. So without a peace process, one of two things could happen???either Israel is driven into the sea; or following the 6-day war, the Palestinians are forced to live as second class citizens in a Jewish state. Sucked, and in that respect, Clinton???s efforts to reach a peace accord are to be applauded???even though he ended up being played by one of the twentieth century???s most notorious gangster frauds, a likely pederast and terrorist innovator.
But something quite extraordinary happened in 2004. The general who fended off Sadat???s army from Sinai, the general who allowed the philangists to cleanse Sabra and Shetilla, the politician who founded the settler movement, the only minister besides Sharansky to reject the Camp David 2 negotiations, had a change of heart. The man the Israeli left called ???the bulldozer??? became a devotee of lesser Israel. He then proceeded to actually withdraw from Gaza, and eight settlements around Jericho. He destroyed the party of greater Israel, Likud, in the process. His successor stuck with his vision and introduced money in the budget for 2006 to prepare for a massive withdrawal of all settlements in the west bank with the exception of those strategically around Jerusalem. This is like Ike Turner becoming the president of NOW. This is like Pat Robertson joining Megadeath for a tour sponsored by the national association of cock ring manufacturers.
Hamas before they were a majority in the legislature, with the complicity of PA security forces, began shelling Sderot upon the completion of disengagement. Not surprisingly, Gazans applauded these actions. For them, Zionism itself is a negation of their national existence. When they voted in droves, not even suitcases full of cash, phony USAID contracts and hopes of prayers of Europe, Japan and America, could stop them from voting for the party unabashedly for the destruction of Israel. Palestinians voted for war. War is what they wished. War is what they're getting.
Thank you.
Someday there will be visionary leaders on both sides at the same time. When that happens a path to justice and peace will be found. Since Israeli victories have not secured peace. And since demoralization has not secured peace. Justice is our only hope.
Just to piss off those who don't want to acknowledge the US role in this, let me say; all my Hadassah relatives vote for republican presidential candidates because they give Israel more weapons and don't try to restrain Israel or force peace talks.
If George Bush came up with a plan or policy that brought peace in the Middle East between Paletinians and Israelis, something that no one in the history of the planet has managed to do, it would make him the single greatest man in the history of the world!!
But in a whole 6 years he has failed to do this....so SOMETHING/ANYTHING has to be his fault.
Can people critique the government? Or is everyone that does so "haters"? You don't seem to be able to tell the difference.
Tell me what the U.S.'s policy has been towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If it's worked can people praise it? If it hasn't, can people critique it? Then get back to me.
If George Bush came up with a plan or policy that brought peace in the Middle East between Paletinians and Israelis, something that no one in the history of the planet has managed to do, it would make him the single greatest man in the history of the world!!
For someone critiquing Motown for lack of perspective, you really dole it out well too.
goddamnit...can someone explain to me why...if you take too long to write a post, the server system here deletes it? I had this long ass post and then BAM, it got wiped away. I fucking hate that shit.
I'm not sure what the purpose of it is, but I have almost fully trained myself to copy any lengthy post to the clipboard before continuing - that way you can just go back and paste it in if it rejects you the first time. I've saved a few posts that would have been lost this way.
And unfortunately I don't see the Israelis holding out as long as the Arabs/Muslims. You can see the seeds of self-defeat among them already.
Yo, B,
Just wondering what the above quote means?
Peace
h
H**ard,
Basically, I don't think the Israelis have the balls it takes to deal with the realities in the Middle East. For all the criticism the Israelis get for their supposed brutality blah blah blah, they don't even have the ruthlessness that it takes to maintain power as a legitimate Arab polity, much less a polity made up of Jews, an historically disfavored and illegitimate political community in the Middle East.
They've never acted with the unbridled force that King Hussein did against the Palestinians in 1970 or Assad against the Islamists in 1982.
Remember Jenin? The Israelis went in there on foot back in 2002 to avoid civilian casualties. And they lost like 20 guys in the process. A King Hussein or a Mubarak (not to mention an Assad or a Saddam) would've just bombarded the place aerially. Shit, consider the War of Independence in 1948: If the Arab armies had won there wouldn't be a "Jewish refugee problem" like there's a Palestinian one today.
Basically all I'm saying is Israelis love their land and freedom but in the long run would rather drink coffee out of little cups and throw gay trance parties than fight to the death. Which would be OK if they were up against Europeans or, *cough* Canadians. But they're up against folks who really want to die for this, and there's waaaay more of them.
It's a paradox of the Zionist movement. The early Zionist thinkers yearned for "normaliut" or normalcy; the author Chaim Nachman Bialik said he dreamed of the day when Israel would be a country like any other with Jewish thieves, Jewish prostitutes. And the Jews would cease to be this anomolous scattered community but a normal nation with a normal broing country. But given the reality in the Middle East, it requires extreme commitment just to survive. The day the Israelis let their guard down that country is done for.
All of this is not to say that Israel should go Saddam on the Palestinians[/b] . I just don't think that the Jews after years in powerless exile are necessarily cut out for statehood, much less statehood in the Middle East. Anyway just to clarify my quote for you; not a coherent thought or anything.
And unfortunately I don't see the Israelis holding out as long as the Arabs/Muslims. You can see the seeds of self-defeat among them already.
Yo, B,
Just wondering what the above quote means?
Peace
h
H**ard,
Basically, I don't think the Israelis have the balls it takes to deal with the realities in the Middle East. For all the criticism the Israelis get for their supposed brutality blah blah blah, they don't even have the ruthlessness that it takes to maintain power as a legitimate Arab polity, much less a polity made up of Jews, an historically disfavored and illegitimate political community in the Middle East.
They've never acted with the unbridled force that King Hussein did against the Palestinians in 1970 or Assad against the Islamists in 1982.
Remember Jenin? The Israelis went in there on foot back in 2002 to avoid civilian casualties. And they lost like 20 guys in the process. A King Hussein or a Mubarak (not to mention an Assad or a Saddam) would've just bombarded the place aerially. Shit, consider the War of Independence in 1948: If the Arab armies had won there wouldn't be a "Jewish refugee problem" like there's a Palestinian one today.
Basically all I'm saying is Israelis love their land and freedom but in the long run would rather drink coffee out of little cups and throw gay trance parties than fight to the death. Which would be OK if they were up against Europeans or, *cough* Canadians. But they're up against folks who really want to die for this, and there's waaaay more of them.
It's a paradox of the Zionist movement. The early Zionist thinkers yearned for "normaliut" or normalcy; the author Chaim Nachman Bialik said he dreamed of the day when Israel would be a country like any other with Jewish thieves, Jewish prostitutes. And the Jews would cease to be this anomolous scattered community but a normal nation with a normal broing country. But given the reality in the Middle East, it requires extreme commitment just to survive. The day the Israelis let their guard down that country is done for.
All of this is not to say that Israel should go Saddam on the Palestinians[/b] . I just don't think that the Jews after years in powerless exile are necessarily cut out for statehood, much less statehood in the Middle East. Anyway just to clarify my quote for you; not a coherent thought or anything.
Nice to see you active on the board again, Paul! I've seen you posting over at the Kung Fu board, too. Saw a screening of the last remaining print of "Dirty Ho" on friday. It was really something.
Thread related: There was this girl in high school who had a Star of David drawn on her binder. Underneath, she had written "Isreal" instead of "Israel". I never knew if she was trying to be deep or if it was just a spelling fuck up. True story.
Nice to see you active on the board again, Paul! I've seen you posting over at the Kung Fu board, too. Saw a screening of the last remaining print of "Dirty Ho" on friday. It was really something.
What up "HAZ"!
Yeah, Dirty Ho is one of my favorite Shaws. Never saw it on the big screen so I'm really looking forward to it next week when the fest hits NY. I'll probably go on Sat (or is it Sunday?) when there'll be a Duece-like quadruple feature of Dirty Ho, My Young Auntie, Legendary Weapons of Kung Fu AND Five Venoms!!
Thread related: There was this girl in high school who had a Star of David drawn on her binder. Underneath, she had written "Isreal" instead of "Israel". I never knew if she was trying to be deep or if it was just a spelling fuck up. True story.
When I was about 8 or 9, my mom became the acting principal at the Hebrew Day School here in PK after the old principal quit suddenly. She was a secratary there for a few years and everyone there loved her, so they gave her the job. Kind of bugged since we're not a lick Jewish. Far from it. We're mostly German actually (which may have explained why my sister and I always played the SS to my Jewish neighbors concentration camp prisoners whenever we used to play "Holocaust". I'm not kidding. We even converted my mom's Volvo station wagon into a "gas chamber". I know. Not very PC to say the least.) But yeah, after I got out of school everyday, I used to walk about a mile to the Hebrew Day School and wait for my mom to finish work so she could drive me home. I remember one time seeing a humongous mural that a 2nd or 3rd grade class painted that read... "ISRAEL IS REAL". So yeah, maybe your homegirl was being deep after all.
Comments
I think that all Oliver is saying, is that its not necessarily the people to blame so to speak, I don't see him or anyone condoning or supporting Hamas, its just not as clear of a situation as people sometimes want to make it.
I don't see any other options for the Palestinian people without 3rd party intervention, and until that happens this back and forth between the two countries will keep going.
The truth is, poll data consistently shows Palestinian support for attacks on Israeli civilians. This was especially true in the run-up to the elections that brought Hamas to power, and Hamas was quite open in using their attacks on Israeli civilians as a campaign rallying point (particularly on the college campuses of the West Bank and Gaza).
So while Fatah corruption may have played a major role, the Palis have never concealed their support for Hamas' violence.
You can make excuses for the Palestinians' support for Hamas. The Palestinians themselves, on the other hand, don't.
Wrong. It's VERY clear.
We're not talking Bush vs. Gore = lesser of two evils, we're talking Hamas vs. Fatah = both VERY evil.
The only right thing to do for any human being with a conscience is to boycott the election altogether.
Anything other than that is a vote for murderous thugs. Period. End of story.
And if the results had been a low voter turn out, then I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the Palestinians.
But of course the opposite of a boycott happened. The lines at the polls were massive.
So as far as I'm concerned, the Palestinian people have spoken.
Fuck em.
And fuck anyone who would even consider casting a vote for either gang.
A peace process will not change this state of affairs. But besides that, peace processes often fail. It succeeded in Northern Ireland. There is a chance it will work in Ngorno Karabach. But for the most part peace comes from victory, or the demoralization of one side. For years the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was so terrible because both sides sought the elimination of the other. So without a peace process, one of two things could happen???either Israel is driven into the sea; or following the 6-day war, the Palestinians are forced to live as second class citizens in a Jewish state. Sucked, and in that respect, Clinton???s efforts to reach a peace accord are to be applauded???even though he ended up being played by one of the twentieth century???s most notorious gangster frauds, a likely pederast and terrorist innovator.
But something quite extraordinary happened in 2004. The general who fended off Sadat???s army from Sinai, the general who allowed the philangists to cleanse Sabra and Shetilla, the politician who founded the settler movement, the only minister besides Sharansky to reject the Camp David 2 negotiations, had a change of heart. The man the Israeli left called ???the bulldozer??? became a devotee of lesser Israel. He then proceeded to actually withdraw from Gaza, and eight settlements around Jericho. He destroyed the party of greater Israel, Likud, in the process. His successor stuck with his vision and introduced money in the budget for 2006 to prepare for a massive withdrawal of all settlements in the west bank with the exception of those strategically around Jerusalem. This is like Ike Turner becoming the president of NOW. This is like Pat Robertson joining Megadeath for a tour sponsored by the national association of cock ring manufacturers.
Hamas before they were a majority in the legislature, with the complicity of PA security forces, began shelling Sderot upon the completion of disengagement. Not surprisingly, Gazans applauded these actions. For them, Zionism itself is a negation of their national existence. When they voted in droves, not even suitcases full of cash, phony USAID contracts and hopes of prayers of Europe, Japan and America, could stop them from voting for the party unabashedly for the destruction of Israel. Palestinians voted for war. War is what they wished. War is what they're getting.
I see these IDIOTS[/b] like Ann Coulter, Rush and O'Reilly who claim/appear to represent the far right in this country make ridiculous and absurd statements like "Liberalism is a mental disorder" and that the folks on the far left have such a "raging blind hatred for George Bush and everything he does that it makes them incapable of rational discourse on any matter that involves GWB". These comments are laughable at best and if they looked in the mirror they'd see the exact polar opposite.
But I gotta tell you dude, you make a damn good case for what they're saying. You do great research and present reasonable and well thought out arguments on lots of topics, but your overtly obvious seething hatred for everything GWB is disturbing. You come across like everything he does is wrong, when he doesn't do anything he's to blame and he's responsible for every single problem on the face of the earth, even those going back 1,000's of years.
Sure he sucks, but your venomous crusade against him hurts your credibility on some topics imo....and based on the posts in this thread I'd say some others happen to agree. Sorta like those Christians who blame everything bad in the world on Satan .....weak sauce.
That being said, at least everytime someone disagrees with you you don't simply resort to calling them stupid or Sabadaba, and that is much appreciated.
Rich
Read my post, did I say that the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier, or the Israeli incursion into Gaza was Bush's fault?
The first paragraph says that the problem for the last several years has been that no one has been pushing for any kind of negotiations. Bush's policy has been to withdraw. In my view, the U.S. is the only country that can bring the Israelies and Palestinians together. Yes, Araft nixed Oslo, yes Fatah is corrupt, yes Hamas got elected, and Israel went through a bunch of problems as well including the split of Likud, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, etc. I tried to list some of the main problems happening in both sides of this conflict. Could there have been alternatives outcomes? Maybe, and an engaged U.S. could have tried to shape things differently by continuing to push both sides rather than withdrawing. Good bye.
This is my "venemous crusade" against Bush.
For the record I have made fun of Sabada several times.
But in a whole 6 years he has failed to do this....so SOMETHING/ANYTHING has to be his fault.
this schitt blows my mind.
Palestinian old-timers, particularly religious Muslims, referred to Jerusalem as "Bayt ul-Maqdis."
This is actually an Arabic version of "Beyt HaMikdash." Both mean "House of Holiness" and both refer to the ancient Jewish temple whose remains lie below today's Har Habayit ("Temple Mount"), refered to in Arabic as "Haram al-Sharif " ("Noble Sanctuary").
This Arabic name has slowly disappeared from Palestinian parlance, supplanted over the last century by "al-Quds." Why has this Arabic name for Jerusalem disappeared? It's clearly disfavored because it makes explicit reference to the Jewish temple, the existence of which they would now prefer to deny - as you rightly point out.
I wouldn't say this was ever a dominant characteristic of the Zionist movement nor a goal of any Israeli government.
And unfortunately I don't see the Israelis holding out as long as the Arabs/Muslims. You can see the seeds of self-defeat among them already.
Yo, B,
Just wondering what the above quote means?
Peace
h
Here's Take 2, the shorter version:
1) Guzzo - I'm one of the few people here NOT talking in absolutes so I don't know why you're trying to quote that shit back to me.
2) Paul - I've never defended Hamas. They are bad, bad, bad. Those who voted for them, especially in the areas of the current incursion are largely reaping what they have sown. And I think Israel has every right to defend itself against terrorists firing rockets into populated civilian areas.
However, you've been misreading my point all along. Hamas won with a PLURALITY of votes in the January elections: 44 to 42% compared to Fatah. That was enough for them to win the majority of seats in the government. However, it's worth noting that the majority of Palestinian voters did not even vote for Hamas. To claim that Hamas speaks for Palestinian society is like saying the MINORITY of Americans who voted for Bush in 2000 stands for ALL of America. This has been my point all along.
3) Related to this...correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't there two major aims being pursued by different Palestinian sectors of society?
A) A Palestinian nation-state, reclamation of land, control over Jeruselum and right to return (or some combination thereof).
B) The annihilation of Israel.
I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive but does everyone who supports one also support the other? People seem to assume that Hamas' rise to power means that the whole of Palestine wants to wage a genocidal war on Israel (and to believe Paul's comparison), wipe Jews off the map globally. I think that's a rather remarkable leap in logic.
Moreover, speaking of factions, isn't there a legitmate humanitarian and political crisis waiting to be resolved in regards to Palestinian refugees that has more or less been co-opted by Islamic extremists and/or Arab nationalists who harbor anti-Zionist and/or anti-Semitic goals and have essentially masked the evil intentions of the latter by hijacking the p.r. campaign of the former? Or are most Palestinians just after the global extermination of Jews, starting with Israel?
4) Outside of this current situation, I'd like to know from both Vitamin and Paul what they think the long-term solution might be. I think Vitamin has the most informed knowledge on that question and as for Paul, he speaks so loudly from his heart, I'm curious what his heart thinks will resolve the situation in the long-term.
Thank you.
Someday there will be visionary leaders on both sides at the same time. When that happens a path to justice and peace will be found. Since Israeli victories have not secured peace. And since demoralization has not secured peace. Justice is our only hope.
Just to piss off those who don't want to acknowledge the US role in this, let me say; all my Hadassah relatives vote for republican presidential candidates because they give Israel more weapons and don't try to restrain Israel or force peace talks.
Can people critique the government? Or is everyone that does so "haters"? You don't seem to be able to tell the difference.
Tell me what the U.S.'s policy has been towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If it's worked can people praise it? If it hasn't, can people critique it? Then get back to me.
For someone critiquing Motown for lack of perspective, you really dole it out well too.
I'm not sure what the purpose of it is, but I have almost fully
trained myself to copy any lengthy post to the clipboard before continuing
- that way you can just go back and paste it in if it rejects you the
first time. I've saved a few posts that would have been lost
this way.
H**ard,
Basically, I don't think the Israelis have the balls it takes to deal with the realities in the Middle East. For all the criticism the Israelis get for their supposed brutality blah blah blah, they don't even have the ruthlessness that it takes to maintain power as a legitimate Arab polity, much less a polity made up of Jews, an historically disfavored and illegitimate political community in the Middle East.
They've never acted with the unbridled force that King Hussein did against the Palestinians in 1970 or Assad against the Islamists in 1982.
Remember Jenin? The Israelis went in there on foot back in 2002 to avoid civilian casualties. And they lost like 20 guys in the process. A King Hussein or a Mubarak (not to mention an Assad or a Saddam) would've just bombarded the place aerially. Shit, consider the War of Independence in 1948: If the Arab armies had won there wouldn't be a "Jewish refugee problem" like there's a Palestinian one today.
Basically all I'm saying is Israelis love their land and freedom but in the long run would rather drink coffee out of little cups and throw gay trance parties than fight to the death. Which would be OK if they were up against Europeans or, *cough* Canadians. But they're up against folks who really want to die for this, and there's waaaay more of them.
It's a paradox of the Zionist movement. The early Zionist thinkers yearned for "normaliut" or normalcy; the author Chaim Nachman Bialik said he dreamed of the day when Israel would be a country like any other with Jewish thieves, Jewish prostitutes. And the Jews would cease to be this anomolous scattered community but a normal nation with a normal broing country. But given the reality in the Middle East, it requires extreme commitment just to survive. The day the Israelis let their guard down that country is done for.
All of this is not to say that Israel should go Saddam on the Palestinians[/b] . I just don't think that the Jews after years in powerless exile are necessarily cut out for statehood, much less statehood in the Middle East. Anyway just to clarify my quote for you; not a coherent thought or anything.
That's what I thought you meant & I agree.
Thread related: There was this girl in high school who had a Star of David drawn on her binder. Underneath, she had written "Isreal" instead of "Israel". I never knew if she was trying to be deep or if it was just a spelling fuck up. True story.
Peace
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What up "HAZ"!
Yeah, Dirty Ho is one of my favorite Shaws. Never saw it on the big screen so I'm really looking forward to it next week when the fest hits NY.
I'll probably go on Sat (or is it Sunday?) when there'll be a Duece-like quadruple feature of Dirty Ho, My Young Auntie, Legendary Weapons of Kung Fu AND Five Venoms!!
When I was about 8 or 9, my mom became the acting principal at the Hebrew Day School here in PK after the old principal quit suddenly.
She was a secratary there for a few years and everyone there loved her, so they gave her the job.
Kind of bugged since we're not a lick Jewish. Far from it. We're mostly German actually (which may have explained why my sister and I always played the SS to my Jewish neighbors concentration camp prisoners whenever we used to play "Holocaust". I'm not kidding. We even converted my mom's Volvo station wagon into a "gas chamber". I know. Not very PC to say the least.)
But yeah, after I got out of school everyday, I used to walk about a mile to the Hebrew Day School and wait for my mom to finish work so she could drive me home.
I remember one time seeing a humongous mural that a 2nd or 3rd grade class painted that read... "ISRAEL IS REAL". So yeah, maybe your homegirl was being deep after all.
Some more of my favorites...