I don't mean to sound cynical, but I think the immigration movement can bypass the African American community entirely and still achieve "practical victory" if by that it means legislation friendly to both more open immigration standards and easier naturalization policies.
You sir, are correct. That has typically been the way it's gone down here.
Yes and no. At one point, the African American community had far more clout - both politically, morally, economically, etc. - to have influenced some of what we're seeing now in terms of contemporary American social movements. I think it's troubling that this is no longer the case because - as I think you're also pointing out - bypassing the Black community has long been the trend in American history but what we're seeing for the first time is that other racialized groups are the ones doing the bypassing, and not just White folk.
I don't mean to sound cynical, but I think the immigration movement can bypass the African American community entirely and still achieve "practical victory" if by that it means legislation friendly to both more open immigration standards and easier naturalization policies.
You sir, are correct. That has typically been the way it's gone down here.
Yes and no. At one point, the African American community had far more clout - both politically, morally, economically, etc. - to have influenced some of what we're seeing now in terms of contemporary American social movements. I think it's troubling that this is no longer the case because - as I think you're also pointing out - bypassing the Black community has long been the trend in American history but what we're seeing for the first time is that other racialized groups are the ones doing the bypassing, and not just White folk.
im not quite following. for the most part, the "immigrants" in question are not educated on the history of america. it is my belief that this "new wave" of immigrants, or more specifically the latin american immigrants, are coming to america for opportunity. the article linked kinda sounds like dude is saying that they should run their agenda by the african american community and include them in the cause while having a deep understanding of their role in the shaping of this country. the article insinuates that african americans are being excluded and bypassed as if this new movement were deliberately going around them. im not sure i agree with that. maybe they just arent aware of the details. instead of inciting anger, why not approach this new movement.
in LA, this kind of stuff is further polarizing a rift between the two groups. in fact, i remember catching on the news that an african american group used the hallowed grounds of leimert park to stage some sort of anti-immigration rally. i think its safe to say there's a race war going on in LA. i dont think it ever stops here.
I don't mean to sound cynical, but I think the immigration movement can bypass the African American community entirely and still achieve "practical victory" if by that it means legislation friendly to both more open immigration standards and easier naturalization policies.
You sir, are correct. That has typically been the way it's gone down here.
an african american group used the hallowed grounds of leimert park to stage some sort of anti-immigration rally.
Granpa Shig, are you sure it wasn't an anti illegal immigration rally?
I hear what you're saying but whether the BULK of immigrants have a sense of American civil rights history is besides the point considering that many of the leaders of the immigrant movement right now are very clearly and deliberately co-opting (and I'm not using that term in a bad way) rhetoric and iconography from the Black civil rights movement. Yet the problem, as Andre is noting, is that the needs of the Black community are nowhere addressed in the current initiatives and idealism being bantied about.
After all, if you're going to talk about historically exploited and dispossessed populations in the United States, it's pretty hard to deny that African Americans rank pretty much at the top (Native Americans didn't get it so good either but sovereign nationhood status has benefitted SOME Indian tribes in a way where there is no equivalence amongst Blacks). In that respect, I can appreciate the wariness that Black groups have in watching immigration rights being declared as "a new civil rights movement" when really, the "old civil rights movement" hasn't achieved its main objectives yet.
LET ME BE CLEAR: this is not a case where there's a single-file line and people have to line up for social justice claims in the order complaints are received. Rather, the point to be made here is that a real movement for social justice in America has to BOTH take into account the needs of newly arriving immigrant populations AS WELL AS historically aggrieved communities too. If that doesn't happen, resentment will be the least of your problems.
This all said, if you're Black and complaining about "illegals" moving in next door, you're on some BULLSHIT and ought to be completely embarassed for yourself.
What bothers me even more is the racism between blacks and latinos. It's like we are being pitted agains each other. Here are a few crumbs, now fight over them.
You think that's bad now...wait as the Latino middle class grows at a faster pace than African Americans. What we're seeing in America right now is a potentially profound restacking of racial chips that will (once again) leave Blacks on the margins, with racialized immigrant groups (Latinos and Asians) becoming more of a demographic (and thus economic/political) force and cultural influence. All the latent racism between racial groups is just waiting to bubble on up, not to mention White people freaking out that they're soon to not be the majority anymore.
Good times!
quite true and a damn shame..if you think about it groups like the greek and italian community or even jewish comm all followed a similar path and evolved.
here in montreal you can see it on how politically mobilized certain communities have grown.
difference being (at least in the US), that the Jews have bucked the trend in a significant way: despite their relative prosperity, they still vote Democratic.
My question is (and I tried to raise this in the other thread to no avail), do the "racialized immigrant groups (Latinos and Asians) becoming more of a demographic (and thus economic/political) force and cultural influence" mean more Republicans or more Democrats?
I could be wrong, but the 2nd and 3rd generation Latino and Asian communities seem by and large Conservative in their voting habits. Totally anecdotal on my part - anyone have any data on this? Not making assumptions here, just asking....
In the last two presidential elections, Latino, Asian and Black voters all voted majority Democratic. Bush skated by only because he appealed to a majority of white voters.
I don't mean to sound cynical, but I think the immigration movement can bypass the African American community entirely and still achieve "practical victory" if by that it means legislation friendly to both more open immigration standards and easier naturalization policies.
You sir, are correct. That has typically been the way it's gone down here.
an african american group used the hallowed grounds of leimert park to stage some sort of anti-immigration rally.
Granpa Shig, are you sure it wasn't an anti illegal immigration rally?
youre right. illegal immigration. what they were saying (in the 30 second soundbite on the news that i caught) is that these immigrants, (with the unspoken subtext being LATINO), are taking jobs away from african americans. now, first off, i think this is misdirected towards a people. i mean, if you really wanna be mad about losing jobs, how about going after corporations that are moving all the jobs out of country. why pick on the little man? the corporations are what's probably doing the most damage as far as "taking" jobs away from americans. i think this is irresponsibly inciteful considering the race problems LA has. especially between blacks and latinos.
AND, (this is NOT directed solely at african americans) but the rhetoric of taking jobs away from americans. i mean, im not keen on capitalism, but that's just not how it works. jobs arent possessions. in a free market capitalist economy a job will go to whoever will do it the quickest and the cheapest. personally, i dont believe in capitalism. i just tolerate it because i have to.
odub, i mean, im still confused. its complicated cuz on the one hand, i understand the immediacy of the civil rights movement and how it kinda fizzled out. and that african americans feel an ownership of the civil rights movement in america. in a lot of ways, the civil rights movement (the tactics and methods)are the only real gain for the african american community. i think that article alludes to this what with them still being at the "bottom". i dont know, but the writer is like a phd or whatever so i believe him. i understand that as a ethnic group they feel slighted because these new minorities are standing on their backs and using their tactics to make gains. and the least these new movements can do is be polite and thank them or recognize that they paved the way. but i also feel that political activism is not a material possession. like you need to pay royalties or something for it. im not quite sure what the author is suggesting as a resolution to this problem, or if he's even suggesting one at all.
and what I wanna know is not how they voted in the last election, but long term, as the demographic shift you describe, O, takes place.
Blacks, it seems, will continue to vote Democratic. But, as you mentioned, they are likely to remain marginalized whereas Latinos and Asians will see an increase in their influence/affluence. What will that mean for the Democrat/GOP balance?
I'd suggest that if you're seeing anecdotal evidence of trends amongst American born Latinos and Asians, it's probably not representative of larger patterns, at least, not on a national/presidential level.
It's also complicated by the fact that Bush has been an increasing liability for the GOP and a lot of moderate Republicans are feeling that heat. Moreover, Bush's bad mix of "conservative" ideals (many of which are hardly "conservative" at all in the traditional sense) confuses the issue.
An increasing middle class of Asian/Latino voters might be more friendly towards social conservative economic policies that would benefit their financial holdings but that does not - at all - equate to conservative social values, especially the ones being advanced by the religious Right. Likewise, foreign policy is incredibly divisive - the majority of Americans disagree with current Iraq War policy and I think we're going to see neo-conservatism take a big blow from the Iraqi debacle as a consequence. Vitamin might be in a better position to comment on that aspect (like, I'd be curious to see what V thinks of Fukuyama's disavowal of the Iraq War and contemporary neo-conservatism in general).
I digress.
The thing is this: BOTH the Dems and GOP need to really think about how they're going to capture the interest of the Asian/Latino (A/L) block for future elections. Personally, I really cannot see how conservative SOCIAL policy is going to win them many fans, especially amongst more secular, American-born A/Ls.
My guess - and someone like Motown would be FAR more qualified to opine here - is that the key issues rallying troops to one side or another this year and in 2008 will be around domestic economic policies. The GOP have, in my opinion, lost public support on the Iraq War - I don't see either a majority of A/Ls supporting the current state of American foreign policy (unless in relation to terrorism paranoia but even that is probably on the wane). However - jobs, taxes, gas prices, etc. - these are going to be the enticements that both sides are going to dangle in front of voters.
I think in 2006 and '08, we're going to see a majority of voters of color still going Dem. I just don't think the GOP has done a great job in wooing A/L voters.
How about within Cali? Just thinking about the recall numbers, etc.
Yeah but the recall was on some bizarro world politics. I mean seriously - the recall succeeded because 1) few people had love for Grey Davis and 2) the Terminator factor was off the rails. But people voting for Ahnauld CANNOT be seen along conventional GOP/Democrat lines especially since Arnold's politics are left of the GOP center (which, given how far right it's gone, is not so hard to be left of).
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Plaese to school me on the reasons why even more open borders and easier naturalization proceedings are suddenly so necessary right now.
Plaese to characterize how open, free-flowing American borders are currently being pushed as a god-given right rather than the mere choice of a democratic society.
Please to explain how a group of people who seem to buy right into the facade of America (a free country, leaders acting in our interests, voting as a viable method of change, etc.) don't subscribe to what seems like a complimentary concept of meaningful borders, both physical and economic.
Admittedly, I'm kinda naive on issue of immigration. So plaese to help me out in seeing what the hubbub is all about.
I think in 2006 and '08, we're going to see a majority of voters of color still going Dem. I just don't think the GOP has done a great job in wooing A/L voters.
Hope you're right. In the Fall I'd like to see subpoenas, subpoenas, subpoenas "as far as the eye can see!"
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
we decided/neeeded to sell our house it went on the market sunday, a very nice hispanic couple with two elementary school age kids came to the open house, made an offer the next day & accepted our counter offer the following day perfect great & easy cool to pass on our home that the family has loved for 6 years to another family not a greedy builder who would knock it down & build 2 million $ mcmansions on the lot,etc but wait next door's bleeding heart liberal, harvard educated nut job is freaking "those people will play loud marachi music all the time & park pick up trucks in the driveway" ?!? * "now i'll have to sell my house & move" * this coming from someone who for years has said she volunteers to tutor for immigrants & knows the home country of each grocery store worker i guess that's all cool unless they want to move in next door then the african american lady who moved in 2 doors down a few years back found out & said "those people will lower the property values" * & "rent every square foot out to other illegals" *
what the fuck !!!
any mixed feelings about leaving the area are now gone
what would they like us to do, break federal, state & local laws along with my own sense of fairness & rights i almost expect some people on the street would freak, but these dem-liberal-christians are revealing their true selfs
what would you do ?
i'm at a loss as to how to react to these neighbors
* - actual mofo quotes also heard, "well, maybe i can hire them to do my yard work" like day laborers have the credit & coin to buy a house in our hood people, they can be the worse !
See, this is why I can't stand pseudoliberals. For those that don't know, pseudoliberals are, pardon me, White folks that profess to be down with minority issues, as long as "those people" live on the other side of town. That is, Jamal can befriend Heather as long as he doesn't pick her up for the prom. Feel me???Such hypocrisy!!!! I prefer a straight-up, cracka-ass, redneck fucker who is honest enough to admit he hates niggas.
Second, I would expect some empathy from a sistah, since her neighbors probably thought the same shit about her ass. I have bones to pick with the Black middle-class too. They're too quick to forget the struggles they endured to achieve success. (Some) Black folks with money act funny, and that's some ole' bullshit!!!
I was going to post a bunch of shit that has happened to my family from being the mexicans moving next door to the white folks but my shit froze so instead I just want to say fuck your neighbors and the Ornelas Family supports any shitting and/or punching you may choose to do to your neighbors.
I don't mean to sound cynical, but I think the immigration movement can bypass the African American community entirely and still achieve "practical victory" if by that it means legislation friendly to both more open immigration standards and easier naturalization policies.
You sir, are correct. That has typically been the way it's gone down here.
Yes and no. At one point, the African American community had far more clout - both politically, morally, economically, etc. - to have influenced some of what we're seeing now in terms of contemporary American social movements. I think it's troubling that this is no longer the case because - as I think you're also pointing out - bypassing the Black community has long been the trend in American history but what we're seeing for the first time is that other racialized groups are the ones doing the bypassing, and not just White folk.
I'm with you.Traditionally in American society, bypassing and or ostracizing black folks has been a sort of rite of passage for many previously marginalized and ethnically 'questionable' groups. Italians, Irish, and European Jewish immigrants weren't fully seen as assimilable until they had demonstrated the de rigeur amount of enmity towards African Americans (1865 Draft Riots being the most profoundly violent example).
Arguably the greatest beneficiaries of the Civil Rights struggle of the 1960's were white women,another disenfranchised group, as they got the best of the end benefits of affirmative action.
I think we're in for a repeat. Ironically, Latinos are the only ethnic group in American history to get a racial 'demotion'. Up until 1970, they were classified as white on census and racial identification forms....
And as for the original poster's neighbors, damn....glad you're getting away from all that.
Comments
lol, "irag"
Yes and no. At one point, the African American community had far more clout - both politically, morally, economically, etc. - to have influenced some of what we're seeing now in terms of contemporary American social movements. I think it's troubling that this is no longer the case because - as I think you're also pointing out - bypassing the Black community has long been the trend in American history but what we're seeing for the first time is that other racialized groups are the ones doing the bypassing, and not just White folk.
im not quite following. for the most part, the "immigrants" in question are not educated on the history of america. it is my belief that this "new wave" of immigrants, or more specifically the latin american immigrants, are coming to america for opportunity. the article linked kinda sounds like dude is saying that they should run their agenda by the african american community and include them in the cause while having a deep understanding of their role in the shaping of this country. the article insinuates that african americans are being excluded and bypassed as if this new movement were deliberately going around them. im not sure i agree with that. maybe they just arent aware of the details. instead of inciting anger, why not approach this new movement.
in LA, this kind of stuff is further polarizing a rift between the two groups. in fact, i remember catching on the news that an african american group used the hallowed grounds of leimert park to stage some sort of anti-immigration rally. i think its safe to say there's a race war going on in LA. i dont think it ever stops here.
I hear what you're saying but whether the BULK of immigrants have a sense of American civil rights history is besides the point considering that many of the leaders of the immigrant movement right now are very clearly and deliberately co-opting (and I'm not using that term in a bad way) rhetoric and iconography from the Black civil rights movement. Yet the problem, as Andre is noting, is that the needs of the Black community are nowhere addressed in the current initiatives and idealism being bantied about.
After all, if you're going to talk about historically exploited and dispossessed populations in the United States, it's pretty hard to deny that African Americans rank pretty much at the top (Native Americans didn't get it so good either but sovereign nationhood status has benefitted SOME Indian tribes in a way where there is no equivalence amongst Blacks). In that respect, I can appreciate the wariness that Black groups have in watching immigration rights being declared as "a new civil rights movement" when really, the "old civil rights movement" hasn't achieved its main objectives yet.
LET ME BE CLEAR: this is not a case where there's a single-file line and people have to line up for social justice claims in the order complaints are received. Rather, the point to be made here is that a real movement for social justice in America has to BOTH take into account the needs of newly arriving immigrant populations AS WELL AS historically aggrieved communities too. If that doesn't happen, resentment will be the least of your problems.
difference being (at least in the US), that the Jews have bucked the trend in a significant way: despite their relative prosperity, they still vote Democratic.
My question is (and I tried to raise this in the other thread to no avail), do the "racialized immigrant groups (Latinos and Asians) becoming more of a demographic (and thus economic/political) force and cultural influence" mean more Republicans or more Democrats?
I could be wrong, but the 2nd and 3rd generation Latino and Asian communities seem by and large Conservative in their voting habits. Totally anecdotal on my part - anyone have any data on this? Not making assumptions here, just asking....
Blacks, it seems, will continue to vote Democratic. But, as you mentioned, they are likely to remain marginalized whereas Latinos and Asians will see an increase in their influence/affluence. What will that mean for the Democrat/GOP balance?
I'd suggest that if you're seeing anecdotal evidence of trends amongst American born Latinos and Asians, it's probably not representative of larger patterns, at least, not on a national/presidential level.
It's also complicated by the fact that Bush has been an increasing liability for the GOP and a lot of moderate Republicans are feeling that heat. Moreover, Bush's bad mix of "conservative" ideals (many of which are hardly "conservative" at all in the traditional sense) confuses the issue.
An increasing middle class of Asian/Latino voters might be more friendly towards social conservative economic policies that would benefit their financial holdings but that does not - at all - equate to conservative social values, especially the ones being advanced by the religious Right. Likewise, foreign policy is incredibly divisive - the majority of Americans disagree with current Iraq War policy and I think we're going to see neo-conservatism take a big blow from the Iraqi debacle as a consequence. Vitamin might be in a better position to comment on that aspect (like, I'd be curious to see what V thinks of Fukuyama's disavowal of the Iraq War and contemporary neo-conservatism in general).
I digress.
The thing is this: BOTH the Dems and GOP need to really think about how they're going to capture the interest of the Asian/Latino (A/L) block for future elections. Personally, I really cannot see how conservative SOCIAL policy is going to win them many fans, especially amongst more secular, American-born A/Ls.
My guess - and someone like Motown would be FAR more qualified to opine here - is that the key issues rallying troops to one side or another this year and in 2008 will be around domestic economic policies. The GOP have, in my opinion, lost public support on the Iraq War - I don't see either a majority of A/Ls supporting the current state of American foreign policy (unless in relation to terrorism paranoia but even that is probably on the wane). However - jobs, taxes, gas prices, etc. - these are going to be the enticements that both sides are going to dangle in front of voters.
I think in 2006 and '08, we're going to see a majority of voters of color still going Dem. I just don't think the GOP has done a great job in wooing A/L voters.
Yeah but the recall was on some bizarro world politics. I mean seriously - the recall succeeded because 1) few people had love for Grey Davis and 2) the Terminator factor was off the rails. But people voting for Ahnauld CANNOT be seen along conventional GOP/Democrat lines especially since Arnold's politics are left of the GOP center (which, given how far right it's gone, is not so hard to be left of).
Plaese to characterize how open, free-flowing American borders are currently being pushed as a god-given right rather than the mere choice of a democratic society.
Please to explain how a group of people who seem to buy right into the facade of America (a free country, leaders acting in our interests, voting as a viable method of change, etc.) don't subscribe to what seems like a complimentary concept of meaningful borders, both physical and economic.
Admittedly, I'm kinda naive on issue of immigration. So plaese to help me out in seeing what the hubbub is all about.
Hope you're right. In the Fall I'd like to see subpoenas, subpoenas, subpoenas "as far as the eye can see!"
See, this is why I can't stand pseudoliberals. For those that don't know, pseudoliberals are, pardon me, White folks that profess to be down with minority issues, as long as "those people" live on the other side of town. That is, Jamal can befriend Heather as long as he doesn't pick her up for the prom. Feel me???Such hypocrisy!!!! I prefer a straight-up, cracka-ass, redneck fucker who is honest enough to admit he hates niggas.
Second, I would expect some empathy from a sistah, since her neighbors probably thought the same shit about her ass. I have bones to pick with the Black middle-class too. They're too quick to forget the struggles they endured to achieve success. (Some) Black folks with money act funny, and that's some ole' bullshit!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I'm with you.Traditionally in American society, bypassing and or ostracizing black
folks has been a sort of rite of passage for many previously marginalized and ethnically 'questionable' groups. Italians, Irish, and European Jewish immigrants weren't fully seen as assimilable until they had demonstrated the de rigeur amount of enmity towards African Americans (1865 Draft Riots being the most profoundly violent example).
Arguably the greatest beneficiaries of the Civil Rights struggle of the 1960's were white women,another disenfranchised group, as they got the best of the end benefits of affirmative action.
I think we're in for a repeat. Ironically, Latinos are the only ethnic group in American history to get a racial 'demotion'. Up until 1970, they were classified as white on census and racial identification forms....
And as for the original poster's neighbors, damn....glad you're getting away from all that.