I have no problems with Ghost, G. Rap, Scarface and Snoop.
And where's E-40 at?
Big Pun would shit on Snoop. Compare his verse in the remake of Deep Cover to Snoop's in the OG.
Dude, the fact that Pun even remade a version of "Deep Cover" is pretty much an acknowledgement that Snoop was a legend. Period.
And sorry, I can't take any argument seriously about "good MCs" when you think Guru should be on anyone's top 10 or even top 25. People love Gang Starr (as well they should) but not because Guru was blowing their lids off lyrically. That's like saying Ringo Starr must have been a Top 10 drummer of all time because the Beatles made great songs. Please.
i never said that guru should be in the top 10.
as far as snoop, he is definitely a legend, but as an mc...
big pun might only be a footnote in rap history, but snoop can't hold a candle to his rapping skills.
TI or Ludacris should be an honorable mention if Lauryn Hill is on that list.
Ludacris? Get serious mayne. That dude is okay at best and all of his recent songs have been TERRIBLE! If you want him on the honorable mention list we may as well add 2 Bigg MC, Hot Dog and the A.T.E.E.M., Ho Frat Ho and Paperboy.
Son you need to stick to rap that has echo horns and scratches. Luda is a dope rapper but he makes terrible albums.
Just for you Weezey, I will be playing rap that has echo horns and scratches all weekend. Come thru the crib if you will be in town this weekend and we can have a drink and argue about the best use of horns on the Show and A.G. "Runaway Slave" LP. I am listening to "Fat Pockets" as I type this!
lol. I figured you were bumping a DITC live in Japan concert or something already.
If I could erase the influence of any MC on the history of rap, Kool Keith might be it. He planted the poisonous seed of an idea that one need neither rhyme nor deliver one's words in a manner that has any relationship to the beat.
Kool Keith = Dadaism
He's stretched the capabilities of delivery and upped the ante w/ vocabulary. And by no means is he anywhere near Jalil(whodini) who cant catch the beat. He was totally aware of his cadences. I'm sorry, but I gotta rep for this cat. He's left an important stylistic blueprint on lyrical abstraction, @ a time when most dude were rappin' about the local black experience.
If I could erase the influence of any MC on the history of rap, Kool Keith might be it. He planted the poisonous seed of an idea that one need neither rhyme nor deliver one's words in a manner that has any relationship to the beat.
Kool Keith = Dadaism
He's stretched the capabilities of delivery and upped the ante w/ vocabulary. And by no means is he anywhere near Jalil(whodini) who cant catch the beat. He was totally aware of his cadences. I'm sorry, but I gotta rep for this cat. He's left an important stylistic blueprint on lyrical abstraction, @ a time when most dude were rappin' about the local black experience.
Kool G. Rap, Slick Rick and Grandmaster Caz - it's tough not to have them on the list. I'd also add as honorable mentions Lord Finesse and Grand Puba, and I don't mind that Biz was brought up. Sure, Kane wrote a lot of his memorable songs but I can't imagine anybody other than Biz doing those lyrics justice. That would be 3 juice crew members, and without mention of Masta Ace...I've always liked him, but can't argue that he should be on a GOAT list.
Kool G. Rap, Slick Rick and Grandmaster Caz - it's tough not to have them on the list. I'd also add as honorable mentions Lord Finesse and Grand Puba, and I don't mind that Biz was brought up. Sure, Kane wrote a lot of his memorable songs but I can't imagine anybody other than Biz doing those lyrics justice. That would be 3 juice crew members, and without mention of Masta Ace...I've always liked him, but can't argue that he should be on a GOAT list.
If I could erase the influence of any MC on the history of rap, Kool Keith might be it. He planted the poisonous seed of an idea that one need neither rhyme nor deliver one's words in a manner that has any relationship to the beat.
Kool Keith = Dadaism
He's stretched the capabilities of delivery and upped the ante w/ vocabulary. And by no means is he anywhere near Jalil(whodini) who cant catch the beat. He was totally aware of his cadences. I'm sorry, but I gotta rep for this cat. He's left an important stylistic blueprint on lyrical abstraction, @ a time when most dude were rappin' about the local black experience.
Aren't you French, though?
LOL
C'mon Rillz,
I understand the pandora's box the Kool Keith opened, but I cant understand your denial of his impact. Critical Beatdown helped separate the mainstream from the underground. CedGee's beats along w/ KK's street absurdity.
Kool G. Rap, Slick Rick and Grandmaster Caz - it's tough not to have them on the list. I'd also add as honorable mentions Lord Finesse and Grand Puba, and I don't mind that Biz was brought up. Sure, Kane wrote a lot of his memorable songs but I can't imagine anybody other than Biz doing those lyrics justice. That would be 3 juice crew members, and without mention of Masta Ace...I've always liked him, but can't argue that he should be on a GOAT list.
If the juice crew were the Chicago Bulls.....
Kane/G.Rap = MJ/Pippen(swapeitherway)
Biz = Kukoc
Wait, does that mean Marley Marl = Phil Jackson?
And where does Shante and Masta Ace fit?
Masta Ace = Horace Grant
Shante = uummmm...Juanita Jordan? I dunno, I can't come up with one for her.
Yeh I would definately put Chuck D up there... Not only for his delivery but for the fact he has been sampled in other rap songs. Quotables for days.
And how the hell are they going to give Lauryn Hill an honorable mention?
Roxanne Shante Queen Latifah MC Lyte Yo-Yo
All should be WAAAAY above her as far as mentions. I would also put King Tee as an honorable mention, as he influenced alot of groups coming out of LA.
Kool G. Rap, Slick Rick and Grandmaster Caz - it's tough not to have them on the list. I'd also add as honorable mentions Lord Finesse and Grand Puba, and I don't mind that Biz was brought up. Sure, Kane wrote a lot of his memorable songs but I can't imagine anybody other than Biz doing those lyrics justice. That would be 3 juice crew members, and without mention of Masta Ace...I've always liked him, but can't argue that he should be on a GOAT list.
This list looks like its based on influence on a genre as much as it is lyrical ability. Those 10 dudes made rap music what it is today. Kool Keith could hold his own on the mic with a few guys on that list, but he didn't change the game with his style. If anyone of those rappers on that list hadn't exisited, rap today would not be the same.
Let's just back this up for a moment. The problem with honorable mentions is that it lets people off the hook from having to make the hard choices.
Go back to this original list:
10. LL Cool J 9. Eminem 8. Ice Cube 7. Big Daddy Kane 6. KRS-ONE 5. Nas 4. Rakim 3. Biggie 2. 2Pac 1. Jay-Z
Ok, so fine, your favorite rapper got left off. Put them back on but you gotta take someone off to do it.
Personally, I think this is a pretty solid list (though, like many, I might quibble with the order. I'd put Rakim ahead of Biggie and move 'Pac a few positions down. I think Ice Cube, despite falling the fuck off, is a wise choice and suprisingly, I think I'd actually keep Cube up here too). I'm actually not inclined to take anyone off.
Let's just back this up for a moment. The problem with honorable mentions is that it lets people off the hook from having to make the hard choices.
Go back to this original list:
10. LL Cool J 9. Eminem 8. Ice Cube 7. Big Daddy Kane 6. KRS-ONE 5. Nas 4. Rakim 3. Biggie 2. 2Pac 1. Jay-Z
Ok, so fine, your favorite rapper got left off. Put them back on but you gotta take someone off to do it.
Personally, I think this is a pretty solid list (though, like many, I might quibble with the order. I'd put Rakim ahead of Biggie and move 'Pac a few positions down. I think Ice Cube, despite falling the fuck off, is a wise choice and suprisingly, I think I'd actually keep Cube up here too). I'm actually not inclined to take anyone off.
Let's just back this up for a moment. The problem with honorable mentions is that it lets people off the hook from having to make the hard choices.
Go back to this original list:
10. LL Cool J 9. Eminem 8. Ice Cube 7. Big Daddy Kane 6. KRS-ONE 5. Nas 4. Rakim 3. Biggie 2. 2Pac 1. Jay-Z
Ok, so fine, your favorite rapper got left off. Put them back on but you gotta take someone off to do it.
Personally, I think this is a pretty solid list (though, like many, I might quibble with the order. I'd put Rakim ahead of Biggie and move 'Pac a few positions down. I think Ice Cube, despite falling the fuck off, is a wise choice and suprisingly, I think I'd actually keep Cube up here too). I'm actually not inclined to take anyone off.
Take Eminem off, you poptart. And add 'Face. Chuck D
This list looks like its based on influence on a genre as much as it is lyrical ability. Those 10 dudes made rap music what it is today. Kool Keith could hold his own on the mic with a few guys on that list, but he didn't change the game with his style. If anyone of those rappers on that list hadn't exisited, rap today would not be the same.
I totally disagree w/ your assessment of KK's influence. Ask Chuck/Rakim/JB's/DLSoul/can attest to their love for kk. No critical beatdown, no de la soul.
If he's not in a top 10 list or at LEAST top 20, I'm going to war with the hatters.
I got your back mayne.
By far, Chuck D has had some of the biggest impact in the game.
I got a letter from the government The other day I opened and read it It said they were suckers They wanted me for their army or whatever Picture me given' a damn - I said never Here is a land that never gave a damn About a brother like me and myself Because they never did I wasn't wit' it, but just that very minute... It occured to me The suckers had authority Cold sweatin' as I dwell in my cell How long has it been? They got me sittin' in the state pen I gotta get out - but that thought was thought before I contemplated a plan on the cell floor I'm not a fugitive on the run But a brother like me begun - to be another one Public enemy servin' time - they drew the line y'all To criticize me some crime - never the less They could not understand that I'm a Black man And I could never be a veteran On the strength, the situation's unreal I got a raw deal, so I'm goin' for the steel
They got me rottin' in the time that I'm servin' Tellin' you what happened the same time they're throwin' 4 of us packed in a cell like slaves - oh well The same motherfucker got us livin' is his hell You have to realize - what its a form of slavery Organized under a swarm of devils Straight up - word'em up on the level The reasons are several, most of them federal Here is my plan anyway and I say I got gusto, but only some I can trust - yo Some do a bid from 1 to 10 And I never did, and plus I never been I'm on a tier where no tears should ever fall Cell block and locked - I never clock it y'all 'Cause time and time again time They got me servin' to those and to them I'm not a citizen But ever when I catch a C-O Sleepin' on the job - my plan is on go-ahead On the strength, I'ma tell you the deal I got nothin' to lose 'Cause I'm goin' for the steel
You know I caught a C-O Fallin' asleep on death row I grabbed his gun - then he did what I said so And everyman's got served Along with the time they served Decency was deserved To understand my demands I gave a warnin' - I wanted the governor, y'all And plus the warden to know That I was innocent - Because I'm militant Posing a threat, you bet it's fuckin' up the government My plan said I had to get out and break north Just like with Oliver's neck I had to get off - my boys had the feds in check They couldn't do nuthin' We had a force to instigate a prison riot This is what it takes for peace So I just took the piece Black for Black inside time to cut the leash Freedom to get out - to the ghetto - no sell out 6 C-Os we got we ought to put their head out But I'll give 'em a chance, cause I'm civilized As for the rest of the world, they can't realize A cell is hell - I'm a rebel so I rebel Between bars, got me thinkin' like an animal Got a woman C-O to call me a copter She tried to get away, and I popped her Twice, right Now who wanna get nice? I had 6 C-Os, now it's 5 to go And I'm serious - call me delirious But I'm still a captive I gotta rap this Time to break as time grows intense I got the steel in my right hand Now I'm lookin' for the fence
I ventured into the courtyard Followed by 52 brothers Bruised, battered, and scarred but hard Goin' out with a bang Ready to bang out But power from the sky And from the tower shots rang out A high number of dose - yes And some came close Figure I trigger my steel Stand and hold my post This is what I mean - an anti-nigger machine If I come out alive and then they won't - come clean And then I threw up my steel bullets - flew up Blew up, who shot... What, who, the bazooka was who And to my rescue, it was the S1Ws Secured my getaway, so I just gotaway The joint broke, from the black smoke Then they saw it was rougher thatn the average bluffer 'Cause the steel was black, the attitude exact Now the chase is on tellin' you to c'mon 53 brothers on the run, and we are gone
Let's just back this up for a moment. The problem with honorable mentions is that it lets people off the hook from having to make the hard choices.
Go back to this original list:
10. LL Cool J 9. Eminem 8. Ice Cube 7. Big Daddy Kane 6. KRS-ONE 5. Nas 4. Rakim 3. Biggie 2. 2Pac 1. Jay-Z
Ok, so fine, your favorite rapper got left off. Put them back on but you gotta take someone off to do it.
Personally, I think this is a pretty solid list (though, like many, I might quibble with the order. I'd put Rakim ahead of Biggie and move 'Pac a few positions down. I think Ice Cube, despite falling the fuck off, is a wise choice and suprisingly, I think I'd actually keep Cube up here too). I'm actually not inclined to take anyone off.
Take Eminem off, you poptart. And add 'Face. Chuck D
I am going to drop a revelation of earthshaking proportions here and say that while I love P.E. for how they sounded and what they represented, I have always thought Chuck D was a little forced and awkward as lyricist.
Highly recommended. I don't think anybody really cares about what Kool Moe Dee thinks of Mack 10, but the material where he talks about dudes from his own era is invaluable.
I am going to drop a revelation of earthshaking proportions here and say that while I love P.E. for how they sounded and what they represented, I have always thought Chuck D was a little forced and awkward as lyricist.
It's funny - I was talking with this cat who's working on a book that looks at hip-hop lyrics as poetry (i.e. take away the music and look at them as words on a page) and I asked him if there's anyone who's given props as an MC who isn't actually that good a poet and responded, "yeah, Chuck D."
I am going to drop a revelation of earthshaking proportions here and say that while I love P.E. for how they sounded and what they represented, I have always thought Chuck D was a little forced and awkward as lyricist.
It's funny - I was talking with this cat who's working on a book that looks at hip-hop lyrics as poetry (i.e. take away the music and look at them as words on a page) and I asked him if there's anyone who's given props as an MC who isn't actually that good a poet and responded, "yeah, Chuck D."
I'm kind of reluctant to accept a cosign from anybody that thinks a book that analyzes rap lyrics as "poetry" is a good look, though...
Comments
i never said that guru should be in the top 10.
as far as snoop, he is definitely a legend, but as an mc...
big pun might only be a footnote in rap history, but snoop can't hold a candle to his rapping skills.
lol. I figured you were bumping a DITC live in Japan concert or something already.
What, exactly, is he a legend for, if not as an MC?
If you go back and listen to his full discography, he emerges as one of the most consistent rap artists ever.
Kool Keith = Dadaism
He's stretched the capabilities of delivery and upped the ante w/ vocabulary. And by no means is he anywhere near Jalil(whodini) who cant catch the beat. He was totally aware of his cadences.
I'm sorry, but I gotta rep for this cat. He's left an important stylistic blueprint on lyrical abstraction, @ a time when most dude were rappin' about the local black experience.
Aren't you French, though?
Put Big L, Pun, or any of these other great rappers against lazy ass Snoops catalog and they taking a L.
If he's not in a top 10 list or at LEAST top 20, I'm going to war with the hatters.
If the juice crew were the Chicago Bulls.....
Kane/G.Rap = MJ/Pippen(swapeitherway)
Biz = Kukoc
Wait, does that mean Marley Marl = Phil Jackson?
And where does Shante and Masta Ace fit?
LOL
C'mon Rillz,
I understand the pandora's box the Kool Keith opened, but I cant understand your denial of his impact.
Critical Beatdown helped separate the mainstream from the underground. CedGee's beats along w/ KK's street absurdity.
Masta Ace = Horace Grant
Shante = uummmm...Juanita Jordan? I dunno, I can't come up with one for her.
Does this mean Marley Marl = Phil Jackson?
EDIT: Nevermind, just read Oliver's post...
And how the hell are they going to give Lauryn Hill an honorable mention?
Roxanne Shante
Queen Latifah
MC Lyte
Yo-Yo
All should be WAAAAY above her as far as mentions. I would also put King Tee as an honorable mention, as he influenced alot of groups coming out of LA.
LOL
Masta Ace = Horace Grant
Shante = Will Purdue....
Craig G = Paxon/Kerr
BJ Armstrong/Horace Grant
Craig G = Bill Carwright
Go back to this original list:
Ok, so fine, your favorite rapper got left off. Put them back on but you gotta take someone off to do it.
Personally, I think this is a pretty solid list (though, like many, I might quibble with the order. I'd put Rakim ahead of Biggie and move 'Pac a few positions down. I think Ice Cube, despite falling the fuck off, is a wise choice and suprisingly, I think I'd actually keep Cube up here too). I'm actually not inclined to take anyone off.
Take Eminem off, you poptart. And add 'Face.
I totally disagree w/ your assessment of KK's influence. Ask Chuck/Rakim/JB's/DLSoul/can attest to their love for kk. No critical beatdown, no de la soul.
I got your back mayne.
By far, Chuck D has had some of the biggest impact in the game.
I got a letter from the government
The other day
I opened and read it
It said they were suckers
They wanted me for their army or whatever
Picture me given' a damn - I said never
Here is a land that never gave a damn
About a brother like me and myself
Because they never did
I wasn't wit' it, but just that very minute...
It occured to me
The suckers had authority
Cold sweatin' as I dwell in my cell
How long has it been?
They got me sittin' in the state pen
I gotta get out - but that thought was thought before
I contemplated a plan on the cell floor
I'm not a fugitive on the run
But a brother like me begun - to be another one
Public enemy servin' time - they drew the line y'all
To criticize me some crime - never the less
They could not understand that I'm a Black man
And I could never be a veteran
On the strength, the situation's unreal
I got a raw deal, so I'm goin' for the steel
They got me rottin' in the time that I'm servin'
Tellin' you what happened the same time they're throwin'
4 of us packed in a cell like slaves - oh well
The same motherfucker got us livin' is his hell
You have to realize - what its a form of slavery
Organized under a swarm of devils
Straight up - word'em up on the level
The reasons are several, most of them federal
Here is my plan anyway and I say
I got gusto, but only some I can trust - yo
Some do a bid from 1 to 10
And I never did, and plus I never been
I'm on a tier where no tears should ever fall
Cell block and locked - I never clock it y'all
'Cause time and time again time
They got me servin' to those and to them
I'm not a citizen
But ever when I catch a C-O
Sleepin' on the job - my plan is on go-ahead
On the strength, I'ma tell you the deal
I got nothin' to lose
'Cause I'm goin' for the steel
You know I caught a C-O
Fallin' asleep on death row
I grabbed his gun - then he did what I said so
And everyman's got served
Along with the time they served
Decency was deserved
To understand my demands
I gave a warnin' - I wanted the governor, y'all
And plus the warden to know
That I was innocent -
Because I'm militant
Posing a threat, you bet it's fuckin' up the government
My plan said I had to get out and break north
Just like with Oliver's neck
I had to get off - my boys had the feds in check
They couldn't do nuthin'
We had a force to instigate a prison riot
This is what it takes for peace
So I just took the piece
Black for Black inside time to cut the leash
Freedom to get out - to the ghetto - no sell out
6 C-Os we got we ought to put their head out
But I'll give 'em a chance, cause I'm civilized
As for the rest of the world, they can't realize
A cell is hell - I'm a rebel so I rebel
Between bars, got me thinkin' like an animal
Got a woman C-O to call me a copter
She tried to get away, and I popped her
Twice, right
Now who wanna get nice?
I had 6 C-Os, now it's 5 to go
And I'm serious - call me delirious
But I'm still a captive
I gotta rap this
Time to break as time grows intense
I got the steel in my right hand
Now I'm lookin' for the fence
I ventured into the courtyard
Followed by 52 brothers
Bruised, battered, and scarred but hard
Goin' out with a bang
Ready to bang out
But power from the sky
And from the tower shots rang out
A high number of dose - yes
And some came close
Figure I trigger my steel
Stand and hold my post
This is what I mean - an anti-nigger machine
If I come out alive and then they won't - come clean
And then I threw up my steel bullets - flew up
Blew up, who shot...
What, who, the bazooka was who
And to my rescue, it was the S1Ws
Secured my getaway, so I just gotaway
The joint broke, from the black smoke
Then they saw it was rougher thatn the average bluffer
'Cause the steel was black, the attitude exact
Now the chase is on tellin' you to c'mon
53 brothers on the run, and we are gone
I am going to drop a revelation of earthshaking proportions here and say that while I love P.E. for how they sounded and what they represented, I have always thought Chuck D was a little forced and awkward as lyricist.
Umm...I'm pretty sure faux was referring to No Face.
It's funny - I was talking with this cat who's working on a book that looks at hip-hop lyrics as poetry (i.e. take away the music and look at them as words on a page) and I asked him if there's anyone who's given props as an MC who isn't actually that good a poet and responded, "yeah, Chuck D."
I'm kind of reluctant to accept a cosign from anybody that thinks a book that analyzes rap lyrics as "poetry" is a good look, though...