As much as I understand where folks like Rockadelic are coming from and that none of this seems or should come as any great surprise, it's the fact that Bush continually maintains that LAWS and RESTRICTIONS that have affected every administration since the 70s simply do not apply (because he says they don't) that I find so distressing. And while it does not surprise me at all that he takes this position, it appalls me that so many Americans think it's OK, and that the Dems don't seem to have the nads to do any more than piss and moan on CNN. Where are their teeth on obvious legal transgressions like this? Simply amazing.
I agree. It's not that their wire tapping people that they think are terrorists. I don't have a problem with that. It's the fact that the Bush administraiton says that they don't have to follow the law to do this that is galling. Here's some more info and problems with this abuse of power.
1) In today's press conference Bush claimed that the procedure to get a wiretap on Americans without a warrant is too slow. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) however, allows the president to wire tap suspected terrorists and foreign agents for 15 days without a warrant[/b] after an attack. In other situations it allows the government to wire tap suspects for 72 hours without a warrant. After that 15 days or 72 hours the authorities then have to go to the special court and get an OK.
2) The administration says that not only is that freetime to wiretapping too cumbersone, but that in fact, they don't have to follow the law anyways. As the chief executive during war and because Congress authorized the use of force after 9/11 to attack Afghanistan, Bush claims that FISA doesn't apply to him.
3) OK, it's right after 9/11 and the president feels like they really have to wire tap some suspects. Got no problem. But they continued to do it for the following 3 years. Why didn't they go to Congress and ask for this special power? Do you think they would've been denied right after 9/11? Why didn't they include in the Patriot Act? The point being, they could've gotten this extra power if they wanted to through the legislature which is what they're suppose to do under the constitution and under a system of checks and balances. Even after the story has broken Bush still says he's not going to change the program and will continue to do it. Cheney, the Justice Department and the President's Counsel says they don't have to do it because he's the president during a time of war. You don't have to follow that procedure he can just do it.
4) People have said, well I don't really care about spying on some suspected terrorists. What about the precedent and the abuse of power this sets up? Anyone read this story that just borke, the Pentagon's Counterterrorism office has been spying on the anti-war movement within the U.S. According to the Pentagon, this was to fight terrorism. This was done under a program called Talon that was suppose to monitor any threats to defense facilities. Any info on groups that are not threatening is suppose to be purged from the files in 90 days. Turns out nothing has been purged. The LA TImes has also found out that FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force has also been keeping tabs on the anti-war movement recording names and license plate numbers at anti-war protests and meetings.
Here's the story in the Christian Science Monitor. NBC News and the Washington Post originally broke the story.
Here's a summary of the original NBC report on the Pentagon spying on the anti-war movement.
After 9/11 Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz set up the TALON program to collect domestic intelligence on threats to U.S. military bases.
A source in the Pentagon however turned over a couple hundred reports from this program in which there were dozens of reports on the anti-war movement. Some of these reports had nothing to do with even protesting at a military base.
Some examples. A group of about 20 people met in West Palm Beach at a Quaker house to discuss the possibility of reinstating the draft and protesting it. This meeting was recorded and noted as a "threat". There was another report on a planned protests against military recruiters at a university, a protest against the Judge Advocate General, etc.
Any information collected like this in the TALON program that was found not to be a threat to military bases was suppose to be removed but nothing was.
Not only that but NBC was able to get a secret Pentagon document that said that there had been an increases in internet messages amongst the anti-war movement, but that didn't correspond to an increase in the amount of people or cars id'd at anti-war protests. That means the Pentagon is monitoring the e-mails of the anti-war movement, counting the number of people at anti-war protests, recording licesnse plate numbers of people at these protests and comparing all of them.
This is another example of the government breaking the law in the war on terrorism. In the late 1970s Congress made it illegal for the military to spy on Americans conducting protests and exercising their constitutional rights because the military had infiltrated the civil rights movement and anti-war movement during the 60s and 70s and spied on them claiming there were infiltrated by communists. Here there are doing it again.
So the government is illegally wiretapping suspected terrorists. Some people don't have a problem with that, after all, their terrorists. Well the Pentagon is also illegally spying on the anti-war movement, after all, it's a war on terrorism isn't it?
Can't we all just wish the NSA spooks reading this thread a "Happy Holidays"? Or is that subversive? I guess I should say "Merry Christmas!" For real, though, have a good one, NSA guys. Sorry for all the boring record-related stuff. Hope you get reassigned.
Comments
I agree. It's not that their wire tapping people that they think are terrorists. I don't have a problem with that. It's the fact that the Bush administraiton says that they don't have to follow the law to do this that is galling. Here's some more info and problems with this abuse of power.
1) In today's press conference Bush claimed that the procedure to get a wiretap on Americans without a warrant is too slow. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) however, allows the president to wire tap suspected terrorists and foreign agents for 15 days without a warrant[/b] after an attack. In other situations it allows the government to wire tap suspects for 72 hours without a warrant. After that 15 days or 72 hours the authorities then have to go to the special court and get an OK.
2) The administration says that not only is that freetime to wiretapping too cumbersone, but that in fact, they don't have to follow the law anyways. As the chief executive during war and because Congress authorized the use of force after 9/11 to attack Afghanistan, Bush claims that FISA doesn't apply to him.
3) OK, it's right after 9/11 and the president feels like they really have to wire tap some suspects. Got no problem. But they continued to do it for the following 3 years. Why didn't they go to Congress and ask for this special power? Do you think they would've been denied right after 9/11? Why didn't they include in the Patriot Act? The point being, they could've gotten this extra power if they wanted to through the legislature which is what they're suppose to do under the constitution and under a system of checks and balances. Even after the story has broken Bush still says he's not going to change the program and will continue to do it. Cheney, the Justice Department and the President's Counsel says they don't have to do it because he's the president during a time of war. You don't have to follow that procedure he can just do it.
4) People have said, well I don't really care about spying on some suspected terrorists. What about the precedent and the abuse of power this sets up? Anyone read this story that just borke, the Pentagon's Counterterrorism office has been spying on the anti-war movement within the U.S. According to the Pentagon, this was to fight terrorism. This was done under a program called Talon that was suppose to monitor any threats to defense facilities. Any info on groups that are not threatening is suppose to be purged from the files in 90 days. Turns out nothing has been purged. The LA TImes has also found out that FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force has also been keeping tabs on the anti-war movement recording names and license plate numbers at anti-war protests and meetings.
Here's the story in the Christian Science Monitor. NBC News and the Washington Post originally broke the story.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1215/dailyUpdate.html
Sabadawhatever talked about well when the government goes down the slipper slope they can sometime stop. Doesn't look like they're stopping right now.
After 9/11 Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz set up the TALON program to collect domestic intelligence on threats to U.S. military bases.
A source in the Pentagon however turned over a couple hundred reports from this program in which there were dozens of reports on the anti-war movement. Some of these reports had nothing to do with even protesting at a military base.
Some examples. A group of about 20 people met in West Palm Beach at a Quaker house to discuss the possibility of reinstating the draft and protesting it. This meeting was recorded and noted as a "threat". There was another report on a planned protests against military recruiters at a university, a protest against the Judge Advocate General, etc.
Any information collected like this in the TALON program that was found not to be a threat to military bases was suppose to be removed but nothing was.
Not only that but NBC was able to get a secret Pentagon document that said that there had been an increases in internet messages amongst the anti-war movement, but that didn't correspond to an increase in the amount of people or cars id'd at anti-war protests. That means the Pentagon is monitoring the e-mails of the anti-war movement, counting the number of people at anti-war protests, recording licesnse plate numbers of people at these protests and comparing all of them.
This is another example of the government breaking the law in the war on terrorism. In the late 1970s Congress made it illegal for the military to spy on Americans conducting protests and exercising their constitutional rights because the military had infiltrated the civil rights movement and anti-war movement during the 60s and 70s and spied on them claiming there were infiltrated by communists. Here there are doing it again.
So the government is illegally wiretapping suspected terrorists. Some people don't have a problem with that, after all, their terrorists. Well the Pentagon is also illegally spying on the anti-war movement, after all, it's a war on terrorism isn't it?
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm