What exactly did the pope do? I saw him sit around a lot... ?
He judged a lot of holy b-boy battles, dodged bullets, rolled in a holy armored whip, rocked holy hats, collected cash every sunday, and real headz know he broke it down with the linguistics.
All jokes aside at this point, RIP. A friend of mine, his father is a highly respected figure in the field of Catholic education and had a private audience with the Pope once. Said it was the most significant experience of his life, and the photograph of it gives me chills when i see it. Dude looks so humbled. He's probably feeling it today.
What exactly did the pope do? I saw him sit around a lot... ?
He judged a lot of holy b-boy battles, dodged bullets, rolled in a holy armored whip, rocked holy hats, collected cash every sunday, and real headz know he broke it down with the linguistics.
Ha.
Seriously though, it's like... the Pope is supposed to "talk to God" for you or something. So what does a pope do? I mean, me personally, if I was catholic I wouldn't want some Pope messing up my prayers.
This Pope did a lot to squash anti-Jewishness in the Catholic Church. As a member of the tribe that this dude's organization tortured, expelled and slaughtered for hella years, I give him much respect for trying to kill the hate and move on. RIP.
many of his speeches were issued on LPs in the 1980s (at least those that I saw were from then). stricktly spoken word. Maybe an organ here and there. But definitely no funky breaks to catch.
I had a few to scratch with. I probably should not go in depth just now.
Head of the largest criminal organisation in human history. Responsible for the biggest genocides known to man. Worldrecordholder for torture and general cruelty.
Still to this day, the vatican is sitting on an unimaginable mountain of looted gold that has enough blood attached to it to make the Red Khmer look like a bunch of treehugging hippies.
Head of the largest criminal organisation in human history. Responsible for the biggest genocides known to man. Worldrecordholder for torture and general cruelty.
Still to this day, the vatican is sitting on an unimaginable mountain of looted gold that has enough blood attached to it to make the Red Khmer look like a bunch of treehugging hippies.
This Pope did a lot to squash anti-Jewishness in the Catholic Church. As a member of the tribe that this dude's organization tortured, expelled and slaughtered for hella years, I give him much respect for trying to kill the hate and move on. RIP.
Head of the largest criminal organisation in human history. Responsible for the biggest genocides known to man. Worldrecordholder for torture and general cruelty.
Still to this day, the vatican is sitting on an unimaginable mountain of looted gold that has enough blood attached to it to make the Red Khmer look like a bunch of treehugging hippies.
Burn in hell!
Frank you're getting up there as one of my favorite Strutters.
Uhhh...I was just trying to accentuate the positive with John Paul (dutty yay) squashing anti-Jewishness. But since we're cleaning out the closet, here goes another:
www.forward.com If This Is a Saint... By DANIEL JONAH GOLDHAGEN January 7, 2005
Imagine that a person, at some risk to himself, saves an infant from a burning car in a rural area. The parents are dead. We would call him a hero.
But then he decides to keep the child and raise her in his god's way. The man does not inform the authorities. When the desperate child's relatives come looking for her, even knocking on his door, he denies any knowledge of the child's whereabouts. The man's initial good deed has become a crime. He is a kidnapper.
A document from the archives of the French Catholic Church has just been published that shows Pope Pius XII to have been like this man when Jewish relatives ??? and parents ??? came frantically knocking demanding their children. In October 1946, a letter containing papal instructions was sent to the papal nuncio in France, Cardinal Angelo Roncalli, the future Pope John XXIII, a man of known compassion for Jews, who was working to reunite Jewish children hidden in Catholic institutions during the Holocaust with their parents, relatives and Jewish institutions. The letter ordered Roncalli to desist and to hold on to the Jewish children: "Those children who have been baptized cannot be entrusted to institutions that are unable to ensure a Christian education."
Pius XII's intent to deprive Jewish parents of their children was made unequivocal: "If the children have been entrusted [to the church] by their parents, and if the parents now claim them back, they can be returned, provided the children themselves have not been baptized. It should be noted that this decision of the Congregation of the Holy Office has been approved by the Holy Father."
Because not returning baptized Jewish children was presented as a general church principle and policy ??? decided upon by the church's authoritative Congregation of the Holy Office (to which popes had, in the words of the HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, granted "unlimited competency in matters of faith and morals") and personally approved by Pope Pius XII ??? it stands to reason that this kidnapping policy was transmitted and meant to be implemented across Europe. Still not known is the extent to which Roncalli or other church officials actually implemented the Vatican directive. The documents relevant to the church's policy (including those pertaining to this letter to Roncalli) remain sequestered in the archives of the Vatican and in the archives of the national churches.
During the Holocaust unknown thousands of Jewish children gained refuge in Catholic monasteries, convents and schools ??? though not at the behest of this antisemitic pope. They were saved by local heroes, priests and nuns (who have been justly celebrated by Yad Vashem and others), who also baptized an unknown number of the children under their care. It is well known that Jewish survivors or their relatives and heirs, in many though not all cases, had great difficulty retrieving their children. It was suspected that the church had a policy to steal these Jewish children for Jesus. A survivor of Auschwitz, persecuted because she was Jewish, was, according to Pius XII, not supposed to get her own child back because she was Jewish.
Now we have a smoking gun: this chilling document. It reveals that the pope's and the church's policy was, in effect, to kidnap Jewish children, perhaps by the thousands. It exhibits Pius XII's striking callousness towards Jews' suffering. Its plain purpose was to implement a plan that would cruelly victimize the Jews a second time by depriving these bodily and spiritually wounded survivors of the Nazi hell of their own children.
The document cannot surprise anyone familiar with the antisemitic Catholic Church during this period or with Pope Pius IX's infamous precursor kidnapping in 1858 of the 6-year-old Jewish child Edgardo Mortara of Bologna, which led to a European-wide revulsion and protests against the church. But this recently published document does remove what Pius XII has, until now, enjoyed: plausible deniability. For 60 years, the church and its officials have worked hard to deny the many crimes and other outrages against Jews before, during and after the Holocaust committed by Pius XII, bishops and priests.
Pope Pius XII, by ordering a criminal deed ??? that children illegally and permanently be separated from parents, relatives or their legal or spiritual guardians ??? made himself into a criminal. So did any bishops, priests and nuns who might have promoted or participated in the kidnapping of Jewish children. No person is above the law. A religious leader or head of government today who would engineer a criminal conspiracy of this kind would be put in jail. (When Bologna, a short while after the Mortara kidnapping, passed from papal control to the Italian state, one of the Italian government's first acts was to arrest and jail the church's inquisitor, a priest, who had kidnapped the Mortara boy on the orders of Pius IX.)
Many crimes, today and in the past, have been committed in the name of religion. Pius XII and the church kept this religious policy of denying Jewish parents their children secret from the world, precisely because they knew that it would be seen as outrageous and criminal. Religious robes should not cloak a person and his deeds from being called plainly what they are. The recent priestly sex abuse scandals have taught us this. They have also taught us that transparency is necessary for this most secretive of churches, which has habitually concealed its officials' crimes and misdeeds.
If the church is the moral institution it claims to be, then it must take measures to redress its crimes: The Vatican should establish and fund a fully independent blue-ribbon, international commission of outside historical, ecclesiastical and forensic experts, led by a person of great international stature, to determine how many Jewish children the church kidnapped across Europe and the precise role that Pius XII and other cardinals and bishops played. The commission should be granted full access to all church institutions, personnel and documents. Pope John Paul II, who in critical ways has worked hard to improve the church's bearing toward Jews, should publicly instruct all national European Catholic churches to cooperate fully with the investigators and to unearth on their own what happened in their parishes. Most of the records are probably easily accessible. The church is an institution that records and preserves one thing above all else faithfully: baptisms. Upon identification, all Jewish victims or their survivors should be located by the church and notified. The commission should also publish detailed historical reports of its findings.
If Switzerland could do this with its Bergier Commission for the theft of Jewish assets during the war (publishing 26 volumes), and if Australia can do this for the children its government stole from Aborigines during the same period, then the Catholic Church can do this regarding Pius XII's policy to steal Jewish children.
The Vatican should finally stop the decades-long stalling and obfuscating about fully opening its and its national churches' archives during the Holocaust to scholars and journalists. It should stop pretending that its sole transgression was not having done more to save Jews, and that its sole act of public penitence need be issuing wan apologies for its acts of omission. Surely this papal letter to Roncalli, which dribbled out, is not the only incriminating document in the church's vast secret archives. Moreover, isn't it now indisputably clear that the church should stop its henchmen from vilifying Jews and others who have rightly called for the church to be open and truthful about its and i
ts officials' past and recent crimes?
Finally, it should now be clear that the church should cease efforts to canonize Pius XII. He oversaw a church that, during the war, continued and even stepped up centuries-old practices of antisemitic agitation, knowing full well that the Jews were being persecuted and slaughtered. A church that applauded anti-Jewish race legislation, which was the foundation for persecuting Jews. That used its genealogical records to help the Nazi regime determine whom to persecute as a Jew. That legitimized and participated in the deportation of more than 50,000 Jews of Slovakia to their deaths in Auschwitz and elsewhere. And that officially continued for more than a decade after the Holocaust to teach its faithful that all Jews for all time are guilty as Christ-killers.
And with this authoritative Catholic Church document from its own archives, we know that Pius XII, commanding his subordinates to steal Jewish children from their parents and relatives, made himself into at least one of the most rampant would-be-kidnappers of modern times ??? not to mention a person bereft of fundamental human empathy for broken Jewish parents in search, after years of suffering, for their children.
Primo Levi's original title for "Survival in Auschwitz," his famous memoir and commentary on the character of humanity, was "If This Is a Man." How can we not ask: If this is a saint, then what kind of church is this?
Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, author of "A Moral Reckoning: The Role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust and Its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair" (Knopf, 2002) and "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust"(Knopf, 1996), is completing a book on genocide in our time.
This Pope did a lot to squash anti-Jewishness in the Catholic Church. As a member of the tribe that this dude's organization tortured, expelled and slaughtered for hella years, I give him much respect for trying to kill the hate and move on. RIP.
Head of the largest criminal organisation in human history. Responsible for the biggest genocides known to man. Worldrecordholder for torture and general cruelty.
Still to this day, the vatican is sitting on an unimaginable mountain of looted gold that has enough blood attached to it to make the Red Khmer look like a bunch of treehugging hippies.
Burn in hell!
Frank may be a spot harsh, but just about every citizen of the world would be justified in holding a grudge against the Catholic Church. It's guilty of so many inconceivable attrocities that it boggles the mind. Here's to buying indulgences, destroying a continent in the name of god, auto-da-f??s, nifty torture, Avignon, killings Jews, and so on. I'm not anti-Catholic, but I'm sure as hell anti-Vatican.
Comments
dang...dude passed like 45 min ago. RIP
R.I.P.[/b]
Ha.
Seriously though, it's like... the Pope is supposed to "talk to God" for you or something. So what does a pope do? I mean, me personally, if I was catholic I wouldn't want some Pope messing up my prayers.
many of his speeches were issued on LPs in the 1980s (at least those that I saw were from then). stricktly spoken word. Maybe an organ here and there. But definitely no funky breaks to catch.
I had a few to scratch with. I probably should not go in depth just now.
Responsible for the biggest genocides known to man.
Worldrecordholder for torture and general cruelty.
Still to this day, the vatican is sitting on an unimaginable mountain of looted gold that has enough blood attached to it to make the Red Khmer look like a bunch of treehugging hippies.
Burn in hell!
What the fuck[/b] are you talking about?
---
Unless you're gay and Jewish.
Frank you're getting up there as one of my favorite Strutters.
Classic.
Partial:
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/vatican/va0008.html
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/12947/edition_id/250/format/html/displaystory.html
www.forward.com
If This Is a Saint...
By DANIEL JONAH GOLDHAGEN
January 7, 2005
Imagine that a person, at some risk to himself, saves an infant from a burning car in a rural area. The parents are dead. We would call him a hero.
But then he decides to keep the child and raise her in his god's way. The man does not inform the authorities. When the desperate child's relatives come looking for her, even knocking on his door, he denies any knowledge of the child's whereabouts. The man's initial good deed has become a crime. He is a kidnapper.
A document from the archives of the French Catholic Church has just been published that shows Pope Pius XII to have been like this man when Jewish relatives ??? and parents ??? came frantically knocking demanding their children. In October 1946, a letter containing papal instructions was sent to the papal nuncio in France, Cardinal Angelo Roncalli, the future Pope John XXIII, a man of known compassion for Jews, who was working to reunite Jewish children hidden in Catholic institutions during the Holocaust with their parents, relatives and Jewish institutions. The letter ordered Roncalli to desist and to hold on to the Jewish children: "Those children who have been baptized cannot be entrusted to institutions that are unable to ensure a Christian education."
Pius XII's intent to deprive Jewish parents of their children was made unequivocal: "If the children have been entrusted [to the church] by their parents, and if the parents now claim them back, they can be returned, provided the children themselves have not been baptized. It should be noted that this decision of the Congregation of the Holy Office has been approved by the Holy Father."
Because not returning baptized Jewish children was presented as a general church principle and policy ??? decided upon by the church's authoritative Congregation of the Holy Office (to which popes had, in the words of the HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, granted "unlimited competency in matters of faith and morals") and personally approved by Pope Pius XII ??? it stands to reason that this kidnapping policy was transmitted and meant to be implemented across Europe. Still not known is the extent to which Roncalli or other church officials actually implemented the Vatican directive. The documents relevant to the church's policy (including those pertaining to this letter to Roncalli) remain sequestered in the archives of the Vatican and in the archives of the national churches.
During the Holocaust unknown thousands of Jewish children gained refuge in Catholic monasteries, convents and schools ??? though not at the behest of this antisemitic pope. They were saved by local heroes, priests and nuns (who have been justly celebrated by Yad Vashem and others), who also baptized an unknown number of the children under their care. It is well known that Jewish survivors or their relatives and heirs, in many though not all cases, had great difficulty retrieving their children. It was suspected that the church had a policy to steal these Jewish children for Jesus. A survivor of Auschwitz, persecuted because she was Jewish, was, according to Pius XII, not supposed to get her own child back because she was Jewish.
Now we have a smoking gun: this chilling document. It reveals that the pope's and the church's policy was, in effect, to kidnap Jewish children, perhaps by the thousands. It exhibits Pius XII's striking callousness towards Jews' suffering. Its plain purpose was to implement a plan that would cruelly victimize the Jews a second time by depriving these bodily and spiritually wounded survivors of the Nazi hell of their own children.
The document cannot surprise anyone familiar with the antisemitic Catholic Church during this period or with Pope Pius IX's infamous precursor kidnapping in 1858 of the 6-year-old Jewish child Edgardo Mortara of Bologna, which led to a European-wide revulsion and protests against the church. But this recently published document does remove what Pius XII has, until now, enjoyed: plausible deniability. For 60 years, the church and its officials have worked hard to deny the many crimes and other outrages against Jews before, during and after the Holocaust committed by Pius XII, bishops and priests.
Pope Pius XII, by ordering a criminal deed ??? that children illegally and permanently be separated from parents, relatives or their legal or spiritual guardians ??? made himself into a criminal. So did any bishops, priests and nuns who might have promoted or participated in the kidnapping of Jewish children. No person is above the law. A religious leader or head of government today who would engineer a criminal conspiracy of this kind would be put in jail. (When Bologna, a short while after the Mortara kidnapping, passed from papal control to the Italian state, one of the Italian government's first acts was to arrest and jail the church's inquisitor, a priest, who had kidnapped the Mortara boy on the orders of Pius IX.)
Many crimes, today and in the past, have been committed in the name of religion. Pius XII and the church kept this religious policy of denying Jewish parents their children secret from the world, precisely because they knew that it would be seen as outrageous and criminal. Religious robes should not cloak a person and his deeds from being called plainly what they are. The recent priestly sex abuse scandals have taught us this. They have also taught us that transparency is necessary for this most secretive of churches, which has habitually concealed its officials' crimes and misdeeds.
If the church is the moral institution it claims to be, then it must take measures to redress its crimes: The Vatican should establish and fund a fully independent blue-ribbon, international commission of outside historical, ecclesiastical and forensic experts, led by a person of great international stature, to determine how many Jewish children the church kidnapped across Europe and the precise role that Pius XII and other cardinals and bishops played. The commission should be granted full access to all church institutions, personnel and documents. Pope John Paul II, who in critical ways has worked hard to improve the church's bearing toward Jews, should publicly instruct all national European Catholic churches to cooperate fully with the investigators and to unearth on their own what happened in their parishes. Most of the records are probably easily accessible. The church is an institution that records and preserves one thing above all else faithfully: baptisms. Upon identification, all Jewish victims or their survivors should be located by the church and notified. The commission should also publish detailed historical reports of its findings.
If Switzerland could do this with its Bergier Commission for the theft of Jewish assets during the war (publishing 26 volumes), and if Australia can do this for the children its government stole from Aborigines during the same period, then the Catholic Church can do this regarding Pius XII's policy to steal Jewish children.
The Vatican should finally stop the decades-long stalling and obfuscating about fully opening its and its national churches' archives during the Holocaust to scholars and journalists. It should stop pretending that its sole transgression was not having done more to save Jews, and that its sole act of public penitence need be issuing wan apologies for its acts of omission. Surely this papal letter to Roncalli, which dribbled out, is not the only incriminating document in the church's vast secret archives. Moreover, isn't it now indisputably clear that the church should stop its henchmen from vilifying Jews and others who have rightly called for the church to be open and truthful about its and i ts officials' past and recent crimes?
Finally, it should now be clear that the church should cease efforts to canonize Pius XII. He oversaw a church that, during the war, continued and even stepped up centuries-old practices of antisemitic agitation, knowing full well that the Jews were being persecuted and slaughtered. A church that applauded anti-Jewish race legislation, which was the foundation for persecuting Jews. That used its genealogical records to help the Nazi regime determine whom to persecute as a Jew. That legitimized and participated in the deportation of more than 50,000 Jews of Slovakia to their deaths in Auschwitz and elsewhere. And that officially continued for more than a decade after the Holocaust to teach its faithful that all Jews for all time are guilty as Christ-killers.
And with this authoritative Catholic Church document from its own archives, we know that Pius XII, commanding his subordinates to steal Jewish children from their parents and relatives, made himself into at least one of the most rampant would-be-kidnappers of modern times ??? not to mention a person bereft of fundamental human empathy for broken Jewish parents in search, after years of suffering, for their children.
Primo Levi's original title for "Survival in Auschwitz," his famous memoir and commentary on the character of humanity, was "If This Is a Man." How can we not ask: If this is a saint, then what kind of church is this?
Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, author of "A Moral Reckoning: The Role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust and Its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair" (Knopf, 2002) and "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust"(Knopf, 1996), is completing a book on genocide in our time.
Frank may be a spot harsh, but just about every citizen of the world would be justified in holding a grudge against the Catholic Church. It's guilty of so many inconceivable attrocities that it boggles the mind. Here's to buying indulgences, destroying a continent in the name of god, auto-da-f??s, nifty torture, Avignon, killings Jews, and so on. I'm not anti-Catholic, but I'm sure as hell anti-Vatican.
btw. found it.