I find Coltrane to sound too meandering, and his missed notes are like a pin prick to me. Whereas Miles has a tighter, more organized sound, if that makes any sense.
I almost feel like the correct answer to the poll is Coltrane because of his influence and appeal to connoisseurs. But I'm with Crabmonger on the 'vomit sax' comment.
I'm never sure where Coltrane is taking me when I play one of his cuts, and perhaps that's an element that people love about him that I find too challenging. But I can see where Miles is going and following him is almost intuitive.
if you had to compare the two men, i think these would be fair categories;
tone = both men had distinct, much copied tones. it's a draw on that count.
composer = both have written superb standards but i am going to give this to trane for giant steps, love supreme and s/t
improviser = impossible call. trane certainly extended improvisational music more than miles did but miles was also a ridiculous soloist. his first solo on jack johnson was apparently just tossed off when he came into the room and the band was jamming.
I dunno. Both have their imitators, but I think Miles "Cool" sound outlasted Coltrane.
Is the whole Jazz 88/ Cool Smooth thing based on? Kind Of Blue is crazy ubiquitous.
i think you're right on that. miles' sound has had a greater presence over the past 25 years becasue it's generally more detached and palatable to a wider audience. miles is also seen as a fashion icon and he lived longer so the public is possibly more comoftable with his stuff.
i guess i was thinking that trane had a greater influence on other musicians. from early 60's-late 70's trane was nothing less than a jazz deity. i can;t count how many records i have that are expressly dedicated to and inspired by him. strata east, tribe, most of the impulse catalogue, flying dutchman, nyc loft scene etc, etc.. were all labels dedicated to paying homage to trane and contributing to his legacy.
i'm not saying plenty of msuicians didn;t out and out copy miles' sound and his embrace of certain genres but i always get this feeling that more often musicans tended to cop miles fashion sense and attitude.
if you had to compare the two men, i think these would be fair categories;
tone = both men had distinct, much copied tones. it's a draw on that count.
composer = both have written superb standards but i am going to give this to trane for giant steps, love supreme and s/t
improviser = impossible call. trane certainly extended improvisational music more than miles did but miles was also a ridiculous soloist. his first solo on jack johnson was apparently just tossed off when he came into the room and the band was jamming.
technical ability= draw
leadership skills/talent scout= miles
influence= trane by a longshot.
mystique= draw
overall= miles by a nose
This is fun!
(I pick differently for Tone and Mystique categories, giving them both to Coltrane, and for influence, giving it to Davis...and Coltrane still takes it for me in Overall category)
"period" is not an argument indeed...
Eveytime i listen to "my favorite things", it's like i discover it for the first time.
There is no Miles songs (i know my favorite things has not been written by Coltrane)
that makes me that sort of feelings. And that is purely subjective. Period.
By the way, trying to compare two geniuses is a nonsense.
My relationship with Coltrane's music is probably purer, and in some cases maybe even stronger, but my relationship with Miles's music is complex in a way that has over time proven more gratifying. Please don't mistake that for me saying that I like Miles's music because it's more "difficult" or anything like that; it's just that except for some slight perceptual shifts and some tonal differences and having a little more background information, the kind of love I have for Coltrane's music today is essentially the same approaching-divine love I had for it back when I first heard it, where the kind of love I have for Miles's music has ebbed and flowed and mutated along with me, making me feel closer to it.
It's like James Brown vs. Parliament: If I were to go and pull a James Brown record right this second, I know that the way I'd feel while listening to it would be more or less a variation on the way I felt when I was nine or whatever, listening to oldies radio from the back seat of my parents' '82 Chevette and hanging above the world, awestruck and mindblown within the sax break from "I Got You (I Feel Good)." With Parliament, though, I've gone through love and hate and appreciation and disappointment and back again so many times that my reaction to it, if not always as potent and historical as my reaction to JB, tends to feel richer, more nuanced and personal.
Coltrane is more like a parent, where Miles is more like a lover, know what I mean?
And on a less lofty note: The Miles band with Reggie Lucas and Michael Henderson and Mtume and Cosey and Gaumont and 'nem really is some of the best shit ever. It is absolutely on that primo Funkadelic/Band Of Gypsys level, and there's not a lot you can say that about.
Also, if anyone comes looking for me, I'll be down at The Arms registered under the name "Cosey Gaumont." Holler.
Perhaps Miles has had the biggest influence on the way things sound, but I have to go with 'Trane because I've dismissed some Miles output as (to my ears) pure shit. I've put it on, and got no thing from it. I can't say that about 'Trane. Even if you don't understand the language fully, you know he's saying something important.
Even if you don't understand the language fully, you know he's saying something important.
I don't know about that. As you get into later period Trane it can sound like someone (who may be a little crazy) arguing with themselves in a foreign language at the top of their voice. It sounds like he means it, no doubt, but I find it way too hard to listen to at times.
I agree that I think people, especially those who consider themselves music connoisseurs, tend to overrate Trane a little bit because it takes some work to appreciate a lot of his music. He was obviously a transcendent musician and "A Love Supreme" and "Giant Steps" are up there with the highest artistic achievements of the 20th century. But IMO Miles has equally impressive peak performances, and a wider range musically. Miles was on the leading edge of jazz for at least 30 years, spanning wildly divergent styles and doing them all in a way that garnered the not just the respect of his fellow musicians, but the love of the general public Despite the fact that he was an asshole of the highest order. It's easy to forget because in the end he was playing Cyndi Lauper songs and it seemed to diminish his stature in a way that the other jazz giants never did, but other than Ellington and Armstrong I don't think you can put anyone above Miles in terms of mystique, influence on other musicians, on the sound of his instrument, on the influence he had on public perception of the music, etc.
Plus its way easier to get some booty with a Miles record on than it is with a Trane record. Fact.
Plus its way easier to get some booty with a Miles record on than it is with a Trane record. Fact.
Not fact.
Make dinner for shorty with Coltrane Ballads on and get back at me.
Dont box Coltrane into some Jupiter steez. Dude could get his womantic on.
Exception that proves the rule. There are probably 30 Miles Davis LP's that are effective date night soundtracks. For a lot of people his music was and continues to be the definition of sophisticated, romantic, elegant music.
Plus its way easier to get some booty with a Miles record on than it is with a Trane record. Fact.
Not fact.
Make dinner for shorty with Coltrane Ballads on and get back at me.
Dont box Coltrane into some Jupiter steez. Dude could get his womantic on.
Exception that proves the rule. There are probably 30 Miles Davis LP's that are effective date night soundtracks. For a lot of people his music was and continues to be the definition of sophisticated, romantic, elegant music.
Comments
Let's keep this thread about the music, mmmmkay?
And beat Miles w/ a turquoise chain!!!!!!
I almost feel like the correct answer to the poll is Coltrane because of his influence and appeal to connoisseurs. But I'm with Crabmonger on the 'vomit sax' comment.
I'm never sure where Coltrane is taking me when I play one of his cuts, and perhaps that's an element that people love about him that I find too challenging. But I can see where Miles is going and following him is almost intuitive.
Kindly,
parallax
tone = both men had distinct, much copied tones. it's a draw on that count.
composer = both have written superb standards but i am going to give this to trane for giant steps, love supreme and s/t
improviser = impossible call. trane certainly extended improvisational music more than miles did but miles was also a ridiculous soloist. his first solo on jack johnson was apparently just tossed off when he came into the room and the band was jamming.
technical ability= draw
leadership skills/talent scout= miles
influence= trane by a longshot.
mystique= draw
overall= miles by a nose
Longshot? Hmmm......?
I dunno. Both have their imitators, but I think Miles "Cool" sound outlasted Coltrane.
Is the whole Jazz 88/ Cool Smooth thing based on? Kind Of Blue is crazy ubiquitous.
My favorite things.
Period.
i think you're right on that. miles' sound has had a greater presence over the past 25 years becasue it's generally more detached and palatable to a wider audience. miles is also seen as a fashion icon and he lived longer so the public is possibly more comoftable with his stuff.
i guess i was thinking that trane had a greater influence on other musicians. from early 60's-late 70's trane was nothing less than a jazz deity. i can;t count how many records i have that are expressly dedicated to and inspired by him. strata east, tribe, most of the impulse catalogue, flying dutchman, nyc loft scene etc, etc.. were all labels dedicated to paying homage to trane and contributing to his legacy.
i'm not saying plenty of msuicians didn;t out and out copy miles' sound and his embrace of certain genres but i always get this feeling that more often musicans tended to cop miles fashion sense and attitude.
This is fun!
(I pick differently for Tone and Mystique categories, giving them both to Coltrane, and for influence, giving it to Davis...and Coltrane still takes it for me in Overall category)
I automatically dismiss all arguments that end in "period".
Eveytime i listen to "my favorite things", it's like i discover it for the first time.
There is no Miles songs (i know my favorite things has not been written by Coltrane)
that makes me that sort of feelings. And that is purely subjective. Period.
By the way, trying to compare two geniuses is a nonsense.
I disagree. What fun is it comparing two no name session players?
its nothing to get sour about.
Its a simple vs thread and shouldnt shake your faith an an artists work.
Andrew Hill vs. Herbie Hancock would be a good one.
yeah cause Hancock is a no name session player.........
My relationship with Coltrane's music is probably purer, and in some cases maybe even stronger, but my relationship with Miles's music is complex in a way that has over time proven more gratifying. Please don't mistake that for me saying that I like Miles's music because it's more "difficult" or anything like that; it's just that except for some slight perceptual shifts and some tonal differences and having a little more background information, the kind of love I have for Coltrane's music today is essentially the same approaching-divine love I had for it back when I first heard it, where the kind of love I have for Miles's music has ebbed and flowed and mutated along with me, making me feel closer to it.
It's like James Brown vs. Parliament: If I were to go and pull a James Brown record right this second, I know that the way I'd feel while listening to it would be more or less a variation on the way I felt when I was nine or whatever, listening to oldies radio from the back seat of my parents' '82 Chevette and hanging above the world, awestruck and mindblown within the sax break from "I Got You (I Feel Good)." With Parliament, though, I've gone through love and hate and appreciation and disappointment and back again so many times that my reaction to it, if not always as potent and historical as my reaction to JB, tends to feel richer, more nuanced and personal.
Coltrane is more like a parent, where Miles is more like a lover, know what I mean?
Also, if anyone comes looking for me, I'll be down at The Arms registered under the name "Cosey Gaumont." Holler.
Perhaps Miles has had the biggest influence on the way things sound, but I have to go with 'Trane because I've dismissed some Miles output as (to my ears) pure shit. I've put it on, and got no thing from it. I can't say that about 'Trane. Even if you don't understand the language fully, you know he's saying something important.
I don't know about that. As you get into later period Trane it can sound like someone (who may be a little crazy) arguing with themselves in a foreign language at the top of their voice. It sounds like he means it, no doubt, but I find it way too hard to listen to at times.
I agree that I think people, especially those who consider themselves music connoisseurs, tend to overrate Trane a little bit because it takes some work to appreciate a lot of his music. He was obviously a transcendent musician and "A Love Supreme" and "Giant Steps" are up there with the highest artistic achievements of the 20th century. But IMO Miles has equally impressive peak performances, and a wider range musically. Miles was on the leading edge of jazz for at least 30 years, spanning wildly divergent styles and doing them all in a way that garnered the not just the respect of his fellow musicians, but the love of the general public Despite the fact that he was an asshole of the highest order. It's easy to forget because in the end he was playing Cyndi Lauper songs and it seemed to diminish his stature in a way that the other jazz giants never did, but other than Ellington and Armstrong I don't think you can put anyone above Miles in terms of mystique, influence on other musicians, on the sound of his instrument, on the influence he had on public perception of the music, etc.
Plus its way easier to get some booty with a Miles record on than it is with a Trane record. Fact.