Pakistan says we better not try and kill Bin Laden again (WTF)

edith headedith head 5,106 Posts
edited May 2011 in Strut Central
Sorry that other thread was a trainwreck and got ugly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/06/world/asia/06react.html?_r=3&hp;

The head of Pakistan???s army, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, said Thursday that he would not tolerate a repeat of the American covert operation that killed Osama bin Laden, warning that any similar action would lead to a reconsideration of the relationship with the United States.

In his first public reaction to the American raid early Monday that left many Pakistanis questioning the capacities of the nation???s army, General Kayani did not appear in person, choosing instead to convey his angry message through a statement by his press office and in a closed meeting with selected Pakistani reporters.

The statement by the army???s press office said, ???Any similar action violating the sovereignty of Pakistan will warrant a review on the level of military/intelligence cooperation with the United States.???

General Kayani had decided that the number of American military personnel in Pakistan were to be reduced ???to the minimum essential,??? the statement said.

He did not specify the exact number of American personnel asked to leave Pakistan, and it was not clear that the level was below what Pakistan had previously demanded after a C.I.A. contractor shot and killed two Pakistanis in January.

Then, the Americans were told that the number of Special Operations soldiers involved in a training program would have to be reduced to 39 from 120, that C.I.A. contractors would no longer be allowed to stay in Pakistan, and that other American officials who appeared to be working for the C.I.A., but whose jobs were not clearly defined, would have to leave, too.

But clearly the Bin Laden raid has compounded Pakistani anger, and worsened relations still further.

Calling the American raid a ???misadventure,??? General Kayani told the Pakistani reporters that another, similar raid would be responded to swiftly, a promise that seemed intended to tell the Pakistani public that the army was indeed capable of stopping the Americans trying to capture other senior figures from Al Qaeda.

General Kayani???s blunt warnings came after he met with the top commanders of the Pakistani Army at their monthly conference at the army headquarters at Rawalpindi, a gathering of the top 11 generals. The meeting was devoted to the consequences of the raid, which has severely embarrassed the Pakistani military, leaving the nation???s most prestigious institution looking poorly prepared and distrusted by its most important ally.

The official statement acknowledged ???shortcomings??? in developing intelligence on the presence of Bin Laden in Pakistan, a reference to the fact that the Qaeda leader was hiding in a compound in Abbottabad, a midsize city about two hours from Islamabad, the capital, that is home to a top military academy.

The C.I.A. had developed intelligence on Bin Laden together with the Pakistanis in the early going when the Pakistani spy agency, Inter-Services Intelligence, had provided ???initial information.???

But the C.I.A. did not share further development of intelligence on the case with ISI, ???contrary to the existing practice between the two services,??? an account that generally conformed with what American officials said in the aftermath of the Bin Laden raid.

Pakistani officials and Western diplomats have described General Kayani and Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, the head of ISI, as seething with anger at the American go-it-alone action.

In an earlier account Thursday, the foreign secretary, Salman Bashir, sought to dispel domestic criticism of Pakistan???s lack of response to the raid, saying that two Pakistani F-16 fighter jets were airborne as soon as the Pakistan military knew about the operation. But, by that time, he said, the American helicopters were on their way back to Afghanistan.

Mr. Bashir, speaking at a news conference, said that the Americans had used technology to evade Pakistani radar.

Alternately combative and defensive, Mr. Bashir said Washington should abandon the idea that Pakistan was complicit in helping Bin Laden hide. But he did not elaborate, saying only that the ISI had a ???brilliant??? record in counterterrorism.

Defending the Pakistani Army, the fifth largest in the world, Mr. Bashir said, ???Pakistani security forces are neither incompetent or negligent about the sacred duty to the nation to protect Pakistan.???

But after withering criticism at home and abroad about how and why the Pakistani security forces could allow Bin Laden to be in Pakistan, the initial reaction here to Mr. Bashir???s appearance was mixed.

One of Pakistan???s best-known television journalists, Kamran Khan, who is regarded as a supporter of the military, dismissed the performance. ???They have no answer,??? Mr. Khan said. ???We have become the biggest haven of terrorism in the world and we have failed to stop it.???

A retired ambassador and newspaper columnist, Zafar Hilaly, who has called for a public inquiry into Pakistan???s military, said that Mr. Bashir erred in seeming to ask for the world???s sympathy by saying 30,000 Pakistani civilians and more than 3,000 soldiers had lost their lives in the fight against terrorism.

???The world wants to know whether we are effective,??? Mr. Hilaly said.

In his news conference, Mr. Bashir declined to answer a question about whether the American raid was legal or illegal, but he implicitly criticized the Obama administration, saying, ???It???s important for the international community to be mindful of the fact cooperation is a two-way street.

???To demand cooperation is one thing; to demand cooperation on terms that are civil is important,??? he said.

Apparently in response to comments by American officials that the United States decided not to share details in advance with Pakistan because of a lack of trust, Mr. Bashir said, ???All we expect is some decency and civility, especially in the public domain.???

The Pakistani authorities first learned of the operation when one of the American helicopters involved in the raid crashed at the Bin Laden compound.

???Immediately our armed forces were asked to check whether it was a Pakistani helicopter,??? Mr. Bashir said. Although Abbottabad is home to a major military academy and three military regiments, he said, none of these institutions required sophisticated defenses that could have detected the impending raid.

Once the helicopter crashed, it took 15 minutes for military personnel to reach the site, he said.

The general headquarters of the Pakistani military in Rawalpindi was then informed of the helicopter crash, Mr. Bashir said. The authorities learned that Bin Laden had been killed in the raid from surviving members of his family, he said.

Pakistan received the first official word from the United States about the covert operation when the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, called General Kayani at about 3 a.m. Monday Pakistani time, Mr. Bashir said.

That call took some time to arrange, he said, because ???secure sets??? were needed. Admiral Mullen was the first to raise the issue of Pakistan???s sovereignty in the call, Mr. Bashir said, but he did not specify exactly what the admiral said. Later, President Obama telephoned the Pakistani president, Asif Ali Zardari.

The relationship between the United States and Pakistan would endure, the foreign secretary said, because ???we share strategic convergence.???

Mr. Bashir complained indirectly about the American raid as an infringement of Pakistan???s sovereignty, but withheld the stern reprimand he issued two days ago in a statement that said Pakistan would not stand for another covert raid by the United States.

At the news conference, he said, ???This matter of sovereignty and violation of sovereignty raises certain legal and moral questions that fall in the domain of the United Nations.???

thoughts?

  Comments


  • HorseleechHorseleech 3,830 Posts
    Obligatory, face-saving bluster.

  • Options
    If it somehow becomes possible to kill him again, though, we should definitely do it. Maybe turn it into a vengeful version of "Groundhog Day" and use a different method every time.

  • GrandfatherGrandfather 2,303 Posts
    BobDesperado said:
    If it somehow becomes possible to kill him again, though, we should definitely do it. Maybe turn it into a vengeful version of "Groundhog Day" and use a different method every time.
    thats a great idea until one of the navy seals gets him to fall in love with him and then we're screwed.

  • Options
    Grandfather said:
    BobDesperado said:
    If it somehow becomes possible to kill him again, though, we should definitely do it. Maybe turn it into a vengeful version of "Groundhog Day" and use a different method every time.
    thats a great idea until one of the navy seals gets him to fall in love with him and then we're screwed.

    Maybe true love will melt his cold, cold heart.

  • GrandfatherGrandfather 2,303 Posts
    the statement from pakistan just seems like a way to save face and to continue denying they had any knowledge of OBL living there.

  • the_dLthe_dL 1,531 Posts
    what is the world coming to when you can't go into a foreign country via helicopter and execute an unarmed man, "burry the body at sea" and proclaim victory over an entire fundamentalist organization. Jeez Pakistan ease up

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    2 billion dollars will make them rethink their position.

    I have been listening the last few days to John Kerry and a parade of Pakistani diplomats talking about what a great partner in the war on terror Pakistan has been.

    But more often I hear politicians and pundits saying that ObL was being protected by the Pakistanis.

    I think we all agree it is more complicated than either scenario.

    ObL apparently never [rarely?] left the house. It was under US surveillance for a long time before they felt sure he was there.

    I live about a mile from the Oregon Air National Guard Base where the US air force also runs operations. . I live in a neighborhood where people keep out of their neighbors business. If he was hiding here he could go unnoticed for a long time. Every military base I have been around tends to turn a blind eye towards whatever is going on off base. Hiding near a military base is not that outrageous to me. If they were protecting him they did a piss poor job.

    Some exspy was on the radio yesterday talking about how we tracked him down. They said that they identified 32 (?) people living there PLUS ONE MALE WHO WAS NEVER SEEN. So how did they know he was there? They can aim a laser at a window and read the vibrations created by people talking and determine a person not yet identified is talking. Wild high tech stuff.

    So that he was there but no one knew seems possible to me, until of course someone did know.

    Lets add on another layer of deception. Pakistan knew. Pakistan told the US. Pakistan asked the US to make it look like they are not involved in the killing of ObL because they don't want to deal with the backlash.



    Anyway, Pakistan has nukes and can do what ever they want.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    the_dL said:
    what is the world coming to when you can't go into a foreign country via helicopter and execute an unarmed man, "burry the body at sea" and proclaim victory over an entire fundamentalist organization. Jeez Pakistan ease up

    You need to add the large version of your avatar to all your posts. Too small to see and too great to miss.

  • Options
    The possibility that the Easter Bunny is real > The chance that no one in the Pakistani government knew OBL was there.

  • edith headedith head 5,106 Posts
    the_dL said:
    what is the world coming to when you can't go into a foreign country via helicopter and execute an unarmed man, "burry the body at sea" and proclaim victory over an entire fundamentalist organization. Jeez Pakistan ease up

    There was a Pakistani military academy stationed less than a half a mile away from OBL's compound and no one noticed him?

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    "Pakistan received the first official word from the United States about the covert operation when the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, called General Kayani at about 3 a.m. Monday Pakistani time, Mr. Bashir said."

    Unofficially they were told a head of time to stand down their defenses while we carry out the raid?

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    BobDesperado said:
    The possibility that the Easter Bunny is real > The chance that no one in the Pakistani government knew OBL was there.


  • edith head said:
    There was a Pakistani military academy stationed less than a half a mile away from OBL's compound and no one noticed him?

    why would they? dude NEVER left the compound, burned all trash etc.

  • the_dL said:
    what is the world coming to when you can't go into a foreign country via helicopter and execute an unarmed man, "burry the body at sea" and proclaim victory over an entire fundamentalist organization. Jeez Pakistan ease up

    really? what a dumb thing to post...

  • Options
    LaserWolf said:
    BobDesperado said:
    The possibility that the Easter Bunny is real > The chance that no one in the Pakistani government knew OBL was there.


    Speaking of bunnies:


  • the_dLthe_dL 1,531 Posts
    edith head said:
    the_dL said:
    what is the world coming to when you can't go into a foreign country via helicopter and execute an unarmed man, "burry the body at sea" and proclaim victory over an entire fundamentalist organization. Jeez Pakistan ease up

    There was a Pakistani military academy stationed less than a half a mile away from OBL's compound and no one noticed him?

    there was a story here in Australia not that long ago about a notorious armed robber/escapee that managed to evade capture for an extended period of time by staying close to (and some times even basically next door to) police stations. That's not to say that I believe for a minute that Pakistan had no knowledge where OBL was, but I don't think any one is surprised that they would be playing both sides of the field, but have to keep up appearances for both of the sides they are in the middle of.

  • The_NonThe_Non 5,691 Posts
    A large part of Pakistan doesn't wanna be part of Pakistan. They want to create Pashtunistan, and if they got their wish, the only viable solution would be for Pakistan to rejoin India. It's like a bad marriage being held together for the sake of the kids or for the joint income and health benefits or to not go back to your sucky ex.
    CIA contractor popping 2 Pakistanis at the ATM and then being given back to America hasn't helped relations either.

  • PATXPATX 2,820 Posts
    walter_chron said:
    the_dL said:
    what is the world coming to when you can't go into a foreign country via helicopter and execute an unarmed man, "burry the body at sea" and proclaim victory over an entire fundamentalist organization. Jeez Pakistan ease up

    really? what a dumb thing to post...

    It's a completely serious rhetorical statement. It's not dumb, just very, very unamerican - as in foreign, and will be met with cognitive dissonance for sure. You should imagine what the rest of the world is really thinking, if their reactions are as guarded as they have been so far.

  • PATXPATX 2,820 Posts
    The_Non said:

    CIA contractor popping 2 Pakistanis at the ATM and then being given back to America hasn't helped relations either.

    And nobody thinks he was in any way involved. Come. On!

  • Options
    The_Non said:
    A large part of Pakistan doesn't wanna be part of Pakistan. They want to create Pashtunistan, and if they got their wish, the only viable solution would be for Pakistan to rejoin India. It's like a bad marriage being held together for the sake of the kids or for the joint income and health benefits or to not go back to your sucky ex.

    It's even more complicated than that, because a large part of "Pashtunistan" is in Afghanistan. The break up of the British Empire is still causing trouble.

  • Bon VivantBon Vivant The Eye of the Storm 2,018 Posts
    SportCasual said:
    walter_chron said:
    the_dL said:
    what is the world coming to when you can't go into a foreign country via helicopter and execute an unarmed man, "burry the body at sea" and proclaim victory over an entire fundamentalist organization. Jeez Pakistan ease up

    really? what a dumb thing to post...

    It's a completely serious rhetorical statement. It's not dumb, just very, very unamerican - as in foreign, and will be met with cognitive dissonance for sure. You should imagine what the rest of the world is really thinking, if their reactions are as guarded as they have been so far.

    Yeah, real serious. I mean, OBL was just "some guy". Might has well have been you. If the rest of the world can't find the guts to say what they're really thinking, then they should think about growing a pair. If you can't say what's on your mind, then how can you expect to affect change (if that's what you want).

    On the larger point, this statement from Pakistan reads like every other statement they've released in the past 3-4 years. Nothing new.

  • the_dLthe_dL 1,531 Posts
    I admit my post might have been insensitive, and I actually did not mean offence by it. I have to admit that I made the mistake of assuming that it was a universal feeling that this situation could have been handled/managed far more effectively.

  • fckvwlsfckvwls 178 Posts
    Like i said in the earlier thread, the ISI and gen ashfaq kayani rub this POS country not mr ten percenter zardari. Unfotunately you cant stop aid to a country that has nuclear capabilities and is at the forefront for the war on terror. This country whether through military rule or democracy, ie the bhuttos, has taken repeated policies and stances that is the antithesis to democracy. Unfortunately there is no correct answer to this situation. Seeing the obama administrations reaction and future agenda wrt to pakistan is more interesting to me then mr kayanis standard reaction to save face in a country where the vast majority hate the us. Also, i find it interesting where the most powerful playa in the country is not the president or prime minister BUT the armed forces leader. And to have that widely accpeted by the general public and the world abroad speaks volumes. Clearly democracy does not fly in this country....on another note, lollywood music is ridic anyone got any recommendations besides sohail rana???

  • Options
    the_dL said:
    I admit my post might have been insensitive, and I actually did not mean offence by it. I have to admit that I made the mistake of assuming that it was a universal feeling that this situation could have been handled/managed far more effectively.

    It seems to have been a perfect operation in all respects. What improvements would you have made?

  • Fred_GarvinFred_Garvin The land of wind and ghosts 337 Posts
    walter_chron said:
    edith head said:
    There was a Pakistani military academy stationed less than a half a mile away from OBL's compound and no one noticed him?

    why would they? dude NEVER left the compound, burned all trash etc.

    Plus, rumor has it he was living under the name "Mike Smith", so that threw people off for a while...

  • white_teawhite_tea 3,262 Posts
    The compound had 12-foot-high walls and was several times larger than all of the other nearby homes. They had frequent garbage fires. Try pulling some shit like that in any neighborhood in the world and see if the local police don't come knocking. It's not like they are just going to say, "Oh, it's just another garbage fire at that shady compound; probably nothing."

  • edith headedith head 5,106 Posts
    seriously.

  • Mr_Lee_PHDMr_Lee_PHD 2,042 Posts
    walter_chron said:
    edith head said:
    There was a Pakistani military academy stationed less than a half a mile away from OBL's compound and no one noticed him?

    why would they? dude NEVER left the compound, burned all trash etc.

    Plus, rumor has it he was living under the name "Mike [del]Smith[/del] Hunt", so that threw people off for a while...

  • CinisterCeeCinisterCee 863 Posts
    white_tea said:
    The compound had 12-foot-high walls and was several times larger than all of the other nearby homes. They had frequent garbage fires. Try pulling some shit like that in any neighborhood in the world and see if the local police don't come knocking. It's not like they are just going to say, "Oh, it's just another garbage fire at that shady compound; probably nothing."

    Hahaha exactly
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