It's not about not offending people its about choosing a more highbrow way of doing it. I probably piss more people off on this website than anyone else and I do it without calling anyone a fag, nigger, or redskin
It's not about not offending peole its about choosing a more highbrow way of doing. I probably piss more peole off on this website than anyone else and I do it without calling anyone a fag, nigger, or redskin
While I appreciate that some people might not think that "Indians" is an explicitly racist term, I think it is important to remember that these team names were created in an era when the connotation was quite different from now. It is for this reason that many of the schools on this list have altered their on field mascots because they played into explicit stereotypes about indians as savage and violent. While this is applaudable, the team names are part of this regrettable past too and really ought to go. The bottom line is that there is little gained from allowing teams to names themselves "indians" and many are hurt by this. It brings up all kinds of feelings of rage and sadness for what the original people of this land have gone through. It seems sensible then that our major (often publicly funded) institutions show some respect and empathy by not rubbing this in people's face. Schools like Marquette and St John's have recently voluntarily parted company with long held names that fall into this category. Those programs seem none the worse for it.
Now as for the Washington Football team that shit is just straight hateful. I see no reason to make room for a hateful team mascot at the table. R******s has got to go.
Yea, but plenty of black people use the word nigger, does that mean everyone gets to use it? Does that mean a team can be named that?
Apples and Oranges
While I'm going completely overboard liberal Soulstrut here, I think that's a really fucked up thing to say. If anything, the treatment of Native Americans historically is probably the closest match for the treatment of blacks. Native Americans just lack the movement for them that occurred for blacks during the Civil Rights era and there are a much smaller percentage of them (4 million). Also, there were estimated to be as many as 18 million Native Americans by the time Christopher Columbus hit ground. I've never heard of that type of mass wipeout of blacks in the US.
Really, all it is is "nigger" is passe and "redskin" is accepted. I could be off the wall here but how much love would you get on an Indian reservation walkin up to people sayin, "What up my redskin?"
i understand how "redskin" is offensive, and even why "indian" could be disavowed... but why "Seminoles"? while it may be exploitative, it's hardly derogatory, yes?
me and you (and thats all of you's) would be the best of friends under other circumstances.
Not at all. As Oliver originally stated, you were being contrary as a means of feeling self-important. The truth is, I've found every post you've ever made here to be obnoxious. I highly doubt we would ever be friends.
Come say that to my Indian kids motherfucker and it won't just be them that whups your ass.
actually day, the preffered term is "native american children".
Most young americans would object to the term "kids" as it can be viewed as deragatory.
Funny, I've actually been corrected on the "kids" vs. "children" thing. The guy told me, "They're not baby goats, call them children." Needless to say, I still call them kids.
The Indian vs. Native American issue is interesting, though. In my "Native American History" class, the professor told us that many tribes in the NW (where I live) prefer to be called Indians, instead finding Native American to be overly patronizing. Of course, the prof was white, and I've heard from a couple of "Indians" I know that many people in their community hate this guy.
Regardless of the appropriate term, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable trying to tell anyone it should be one way or the other.
Whatever brings questins and knowledges should be good...As long as you don't mix opinions and facts, which is the main problem when people discuss hot topics.
I won't add my own bullcrap, but anything that makes Americans realize that Indians shouldn't even be called Indians, that's cool. That's a first step. Then maybe tey will learn than India carries Indians. One day, maybe, white people will stop considering themselves as Causasian (a joke if you know your shit)...
Redskins-bad Indians-bad Braves-bad Chippewas, Illini, Seminoles etc-not bad because they are specific tribes, but the schools/sports teams should have to pay licensing to the tribes in question.
Also, what often makes these teams objectionable IMO is not the name, but the logos, the "war chants," and the mascot's traditional actions (Seminoles flaming spear, war dances,Tomahawk chops, etc). In addition to this, calling a group or race of people by an erroneous name is preposterous and it is asinine that the term "Indian" has held on for this long. This is the same stupidity as abuse on Indians increasing after 9/11.
Even though the Cleveland Indians were named that after a well loved Native American player they had on their team (they were originally the Spiders), their early logo looked like the guy in the third row, let alone the objectionable nature of the modern day incarnation (hopefully that google link will work,if it doesn't, google "cleveland indians logo" and check out the logo that isn't like today's logo):
There is a nearly equal negative media image in the early 20th century for the Native American as there was for the African American. Has anyone seen those cartoons from WB that we used to watch as children? Has anyone seen the doctored Bugs Bunny cartoons where he's on a plantation or the one where he's being chased by Elmer Fudd as a Mountie and at the end sings "I Wish I Was In Dixie" with a stereotyped black choir? There are plenty of Native American cartoons that were produced earlier than those that were just as negative, but they were deemed unworthy for re-broadcast because they weren't funny, they were "suspenseful." The very red skin toned savage runs away with a white woman and the white hero has to go get them from the N.A. camp. "Hijinks" ensue. Has anyone seen Injun Joe? Hiawatha vs Bugs Bunny? Anyway, my 2 cents. Peace T.N.
if you ever watched those early banned WB cartoons you'd be disgusted(I downloaded like 30 of them, i'l never look at bugs or hitler saluting popeye again).....some of the most racist stuff i ever saw, the way they depicted peeps from Vietnam, (bugs bunny was phucking up a very stereotypically drawn Vietnamese dude) and i thought to myself, if America tolerated something so dreadful less than 60 years ago in a medium generated for phucking children that preached such hate and distaste, then maybe, just maybe, they have a lot of phucked up things to address, the subject of this thread included.
and while i feel some things these days are so trivial in terms of people being way to sensitive to them, it makes me phucking sad that some of you dont know where Aboriginal peeps are coming from. Some humans are really phucked up that they can't step into someone else shoes and understand humiliation on things.
You have to be rather ignorant to understand how the Minstrel stuff could be offensive but fail to grasp why "Redskin" would be.
Why would you name a sports club after a people? What purpose does that serve? I don't know if Indian is an offensive term. Even if it isn't, why name a baseball team that? If there was a baseball team called the "Brooklyn Native Peoples", I'd find that bizzare. "Native Peoples" is not a racist phrase, but to place it within the context of a sports club is just strange & fairly insulting.
People every right to live with dignity. They don't need caricatures. I'm amazed that anyone could argue otherwise.
i have a chinese-american male friend with long straight black hair, broad features, and a dark complexion. one time he got into a taxicab in new york and the driver, an indian from india, spun around and cried, "OH!!! you are RED indian!!!"
this entire thread is why i try to avoid racial discussions on soulstrut ...people are so ready to attack that they twist words or just make up shit that was never said ...
i am not Native American so i don't speak for Native Americans....but i do know that a large number of Native Americans do not find the team names offensive....
and in my opinion it is because these are NOT blatantly offensive names PERIOD.....
these team names IMO can be without question accepted as tribute to the Natives ....but if a Native takes offense to the names that's understandable also...it's an individual judgement ....you CANT tell me the names
Braves,Warriors,Seminole,Chiefs are offensive ..they are an obvious tribute.....
Indians & Redskins are offensive depending on interpretation.....these are not necessarily derogatory terms THEY CAN BE.. BUT NOT NECESSARILY...there is no debate the terms Kike,Nigger,Wetbacks are offensive ...so get that argument the fuck outta here Mr. Graf .....
without question the images/mascots are EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE/RACIST and should be replaced...
and why are we comparing racist images...why when we discuss one racial group somehow the term Nigger always comes up ....WE AINT TALKIN ABOUT NIGGAS...SO STOP BRINGIN UP NIGGAS....and who said they were offended by the Minstrel and not the Indian ????? ARE YOU GUYS MAKING SHIT UP AGAIN !??!
LASTLY....IS THIS NOT AN OFFENSIVE STEREOTYPE ?????
I could be off the wall here but how much love would you get on an Indian reservation walkin up to people sayin, "What up my redskin?"
I got $100 on they wouldn't give a flying fuck.
I know a bunch of big indians that would whoop your ass for that. and I got $100 that you wouldn't say that shit around them.
Yes maybe, but they don't live on reservations.
Ummm yes they do, I'm from New Mexico. I grew up in a city surrounded by Navajo and Pueblo Indian reservations. And they say "Indian" not "American Indian" I'm Indian myself, my dad is Irish and Cherokee as were both his parents.
Comments
how about a word graemlin...
But why is it so bad to offend people any more? Its like people think if you hide all the evidence of racism that it will go away or something.
It's not about not offending people its about choosing a more highbrow way of doing it. I probably piss more people off on this website than anyone else and I do it without calling anyone a fag, nigger, or redskin
Add a little CL to your ASS and you get CLASS...
OK, I just made that up.
Now as for the Washington Football team that shit is just straight hateful. I see no reason to make room for a hateful team mascot at the table. R******s has got to go.
While I'm going completely overboard liberal Soulstrut here, I think that's a really fucked up thing to say. If anything, the treatment of Native Americans historically is probably the closest match for the treatment of blacks. Native Americans just lack the movement for them that occurred for blacks during the Civil Rights era and there are a much smaller percentage of them (4 million). Also, there were estimated to be as many as 18 million Native Americans by the time Christopher Columbus hit ground. I've never heard of that type of mass wipeout of blacks in the US.
Really, all it is is "nigger" is passe and "redskin" is accepted. I could be off the wall here but how much love would you get on an Indian reservation walkin up to people sayin, "What up my redskin?"
I know a bunch of big indians that would whoop your ass for that. and I got $100 that you wouldn't say that shit around them.
cosign
Come say that to my Indian kids motherfucker and it won't just be them that whups your ass.
actually day, the preffered term is "native american children".
Most young americans would object to the term "kids" as it can be viewed as deragatory.
and even why "indian" could be disavowed...
but why "Seminoles"?
while it may be exploitative, it's hardly derogatory, yes?
Not at all. As Oliver originally stated, you were being contrary as a means of feeling self-important. The truth is, I've found every post you've ever made here to be obnoxious. I highly doubt we would ever be friends.
Funny, I've actually been corrected on the "kids" vs. "children" thing. The guy told me, "They're not baby goats, call them children." Needless to say, I still call them kids.
The Indian vs. Native American issue is interesting, though. In my "Native American History" class, the professor told us that many tribes in the NW (where I live) prefer to be called Indians, instead finding Native American to be overly patronizing. Of course, the prof was white, and I've heard from a couple of "Indians" I know that many people in their community hate this guy.
Regardless of the appropriate term, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable trying to tell anyone it should be one way or the other.
Whatever brings questins and knowledges should be good...As long as you don't mix opinions and facts, which is the main problem when people discuss hot topics.
I won't add my own bullcrap, but anything that makes Americans realize that Indians shouldn't even be called Indians, that's cool. That's a first step. Then maybe tey will learn than India carries Indians. One day, maybe, white people will stop considering themselves as Causasian (a joke if you know your shit)...
fuck you bitch,
you're an asshole, and all i need to know that is to read your internet posts.
I could have called you a racist asshole, but i'll just leave it at asshole.
wait. . . actually, i think you're a prick too.
Redskins-bad
Indians-bad
Braves-bad
Chippewas, Illini, Seminoles etc-not bad because they are specific tribes, but the schools/sports teams should have to pay licensing to the tribes in question.
Also, what often makes these teams objectionable IMO is not the name, but the logos, the "war chants," and the mascot's traditional actions (Seminoles flaming spear, war dances,Tomahawk chops, etc). In addition to this, calling a group or race of people by an erroneous name is preposterous and it is asinine that the term "Indian" has held on for this long. This is the same stupidity as abuse on Indians increasing after 9/11.
Even though the Cleveland Indians were named that after a well loved Native American player they had on their team (they were originally the Spiders), their early logo looked like the guy in the third row, let alone the objectionable nature of the modern day incarnation (hopefully that google link will work,if it doesn't, google "cleveland indians logo" and check out the logo that isn't like today's logo):
http://images.google.com/images?q=cleveland+indians+logo&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&safe=off&start=60&sa=N
There is a nearly equal negative media image in the early 20th century for the Native American as there was for the African American. Has anyone seen those cartoons from WB that we used to watch as children? Has anyone seen the doctored Bugs Bunny cartoons where he's on a plantation or the one where he's being chased by Elmer Fudd as a Mountie and at the end sings "I Wish I Was In Dixie" with a stereotyped black choir? There are plenty of Native American cartoons that were produced earlier than those that were just as negative, but they were deemed unworthy for re-broadcast because they weren't funny, they were "suspenseful." The very red skin toned savage runs away with a white woman and the white hero has to go get them from the N.A. camp. "Hijinks" ensue. Has anyone seen Injun Joe? Hiawatha vs Bugs Bunny? Anyway, my 2 cents.
Peace
T.N.
and while i feel some things these days are so trivial in terms of people being way to sensitive to them, it makes me phucking sad that some of you dont know where Aboriginal peeps are coming from. Some humans are really phucked up that they can't step into someone else shoes and understand humiliation on things.
You have to be rather ignorant to understand how the Minstrel stuff could be offensive but fail to grasp why "Redskin" would be.
CoSign!!
Whats really funny is when people tell him to go back to his country. It's happened twice.
Why would you name a sports club after a people? What purpose does that serve? I don't know if Indian is an offensive term. Even if it isn't, why name a baseball team that? If there was a baseball team called the "Brooklyn Native Peoples", I'd find that bizzare. "Native Peoples" is not a racist phrase, but to place it within the context of a sports club is just strange & fairly insulting.
People every right to live with dignity. They don't need caricatures. I'm amazed that anyone could argue otherwise.
h
i am not Native American so i don't speak for Native Americans....but i do know that a large number of Native Americans do not find the team names offensive....
and in my opinion it is because these are NOT blatantly offensive names PERIOD.....
these team names IMO can be without question accepted as tribute to the Natives ....but if a Native takes offense to the names that's understandable also...it's an individual judgement ....you CANT tell me the names
Braves,Warriors,Seminole,Chiefs are offensive ..they are an obvious tribute.....
Indians & Redskins are offensive depending on interpretation.....these are not necessarily derogatory terms THEY CAN BE.. BUT NOT NECESSARILY...there is no debate the terms Kike,Nigger,Wetbacks are offensive ...so get that argument the fuck outta here Mr. Graf .....
without question the images/mascots are EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE/RACIST and should be replaced...
and why are we comparing racist images...why when we discuss one racial group somehow the term Nigger always comes up ....WE AINT TALKIN ABOUT NIGGAS...SO STOP BRINGIN UP NIGGAS....and who said they were offended by the Minstrel and not the Indian ????? ARE YOU GUYS MAKING SHIT UP AGAIN !??!
LASTLY....IS THIS NOT AN OFFENSIVE STEREOTYPE ?????
New Jersey Blacks...NOT OK
do you understand what i'm saying people?
Ummm yes they do, I'm from New Mexico. I grew up in a city surrounded by Navajo and Pueblo Indian reservations. And they say "Indian" not "American Indian" I'm Indian myself, my dad is Irish and Cherokee as were both his parents.
I'm with Day on this one.
yeah, but New Jersey Niggers just rolls off the tongue better, lets vote it in.
(probably the reasoning behind half the "Redskin" names)
please tell me when this was said ???....i read this entire thread and i just dont see it...maybe i missed something