This isn't all directed at you Rock. I would just like your opinion after you watch the video.
Greed....plain and simple....the root of most of our societal problems.
There's nothing wrong with making as much profit as possible.
There is something wrong with doing it unscrupulously.
If profit on human suffering is not just agreeable, but to be promoted. I'd rather be poor. But hey, thats just me.
Are you suggesting doctors should not get paid?
Don't most doctors take an oath where they promise to put a humans well being above all else?
I'm not saying profit is bad. But did you watch the video yet?
This isn't about profit. It's about taking advantage of as many people as possible all in the name of things like a companies stock prices.
The guy in the video just isn't some Communist. He was the head of corporate communications at CIGNA. Listen to what he has to say.
I watched 30 minutes of the video......long enough to see that gold rimmed plates in First Class on a private jet made the dude realize the excess, beyond simple profit, and I agree with his outrage.
Greed is also what took down GM.....the majority of the auto industry still stands and is profitable.
This doesn't mean government control of either is a great idea.
How many doctors are making this kind of money? Note: Ignore the salaries and look at unexercised stock options. And that was 1996...
Doctors make lots of money, sure. But their salaries are an expense to insurance companies. Insurance salesmen are salesmen, most are contractors (the insurance salesman racket is a whole nother story) and get commissions on sales. Upper management and investors are who the profits go to. If the companies every year face pressure from Wall St to spend less of our premiums on health care and more on profit, you can see who's getting fucked. It's not the investors.
... and there is government car insurance - mainly for those who are otherwise uninsurable or can't afford private insurance.
But car insurance isn't exactly "mandatory" - it's mandatory if you own a car, but owning a car is certainly a luxury.
Jonny....how would you feel if the government said that in order to qualify for the necessity of free healthcare you couldn't be the owner of "luxury" items.
That if you have money to by I-Phones, Cable-TV, cars, $110+ kicks, etc. you should have money to have paid for your healthcare?
That each and every person's top priority should be healthcare and that before you piss money away on non-necessity "luxuries" you have to have your healthcare burden taken care of in the way of a governmental fee?
Well, I think the way to do that is not to separate it out as a "healthcare" fee but lump it into something nondescript. Like taxes. Something most right wing/libertarian type cats are loathe to talk about.
For me personally:
1. My healthcare cost, prior to getting married, was ~ $400 a month. A MONTH.
2. I don't buy $110 kicks. If I did, it would still be cheaper - per year - than healthcare. I don't own an Iphone. But if I did, it would still be cheaper - per year - than healthcare. I do buy cable TV, and it's split between me and my wife. It comes down to about $60 a month per person, including high speed internet. That is about 1/4 of the healthcare cost that I was faced with as a single man.
3. I do spend, probably, $300+ at the bar every month. When the United States of America feels it important enough to send guys like me in to buy healthcare before liquor, I'll listen. Somehow, I think that won't happen.
If someone wants to say that's a personal choice... I'll say fine, I suppose it is... I'll also say that I've been sick, I've been locked up, and I've been down on my luck... all within the last six months. And I'm glad whiskey was easily available, in all instances!
I'm not sure why you are trying to compare doctors & corperations.
My comparison of the two was directed strictly at your comment below.....doctors advertise, doctors promote their services and doctors grow their business....doctors make money from people's misery....the difference is doing it honestly or unscrupulously....I'm not ready to convict every insurance company as unscrupulous......from the evidence in your video I'd say there's a good chance Cigna is/has been.
My experiences with Insurance companies have been favorable....from having a child with life threatening meningitis to having my home burn down to the ground.
If profit on human suffering is not just agreeable, but to be promoted. I'd rather be poor. But hey, thats just me.
... and there is government car insurance - mainly for those who are otherwise uninsurable or can't afford private insurance.
But car insurance isn't exactly "mandatory" - it's mandatory if you own a car, but owning a car is certainly a luxury.
Jonny....how would you feel if the government said that in order to qualify for the necessity of free healthcare you couldn't be the owner of "luxury" items.
That if you have money to by I-Phones, Cable-TV, cars, $110+ kicks, etc. you should have money to have paid for your healthcare?
That each and every person's top priority should be healthcare and that before you piss money away on non-necessity "luxuries" you have to have your healthcare burden taken care of in the way of a governmental fee?
Well, I think the way to do that is not to separate it out as a "healthcare" fee but lump it into something nondescript. Like taxes. Something most right wing/libertarian type cats are loathe to talk about.
For me personally:
1. My healthcare cost, prior to getting married, was ~ $400 a month. A MONTH.
2. I don't buy $110 kicks. If I did, it would still be cheaper - per year - than healthcare. I don't own an Iphone. But if I did, it would still be cheaper - per year - than healthcare. I do buy cable TV, and it's split between me and my wife. It comes down to about $60 a month per person, including high speed internet. That is about 1/4 of the healthcare cost that I was faced with as a single man.
3. I do spend, probably, $300+ at the bar every month. When the United States of America feels it important enough to send guys like me in to buy healthcare before liquor, I'll listen. Somehow, I think that won't happen.
If someone wants to say that's a personal choice... I'll say fine, I suppose it is... I'll also say that I've been sick, I've been locked up, and I've been down on my luck... all within the last six months. And I'm glad whiskey was easily available, in all instances!
3. I do spend, probably, $300+ at the bar every month. When the United States of America feels it important enough to send guys like me in to buy healthcare before liquor, I'll listen. Somehow, I think that won't happen.
If someone wants to say that's a personal choice... I'll say fine, I suppose it is... I'll also say that I've been sick, I've been locked up, and I've been down on my luck... all within the last six months. And I'm glad whiskey was easily available, in all instances!
Wow I don't know what it's like where you live, but out here a round of whiskey costs about $10 including the tip. So $300/mo is a round a day. Some days, I don't go to the bar. Other days, I have two. Or I buy my employees a round.
I'm assuming your "Wow" was about that latter part. Not about the potential of spending $1000s of dollars on shoes. Or Iphones. Or what have you. Everyone's got their twist. I live of a fairly meager salary. I like a drink at the end of the day. So sue me. It'll cost you more than it will me!
I'm not sure why you are trying to compare doctors & corperations.
My comparison of the two was directed strictly at your comment below.....doctors advertise, doctors promote their services and doctors grow their business....doctors make money from people's misery....the difference is doing it honestly or unscrupulously....I'm not ready to convict every insurance company as unscrupulous......from the evidence in your video I'd say there's a good chance Cigna is/has been.
My experiences with Insurance companies have been favorable....from having a child with life threatening meningitis to having my home burn down to the ground.
If profit on human suffering is not just agreeable, but to be promoted. I'd rather be poor. But hey, thats just me.
Rock. Post a link where a doctor made profit for denying care.
I'm assuming your "Wow" was about that latter part. Not about the potential of spending $1000s of dollars on shoes. Or Iphones. Or what have you. Everyone's got their twist.
OR GOD FORBID $500 PAUL MCCARTNEY TICKETS!!!
jesus, seriously...
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Hey Folks,
I find this thread quite sad that there is "debate" about the right to health and vitality in the United States. It's a shame when a company is willing to put profit above the health and well-being of ALL this nation's citizens. These thoughts come from a person who has had a week stay in a hospital, and THANK GOD, our family has the financial wherewithall to AFFORD insurance! The bill was at least $15K (probably more, but my memory escapes me), so imagine if I were a single mother with 3 kids. Catch my drift? Also, my wife has had two major surgeries with double-digit costs, but again, we can afford insurance. Imagine the financial pickle we'd be in if we were uninsured. An extended hospital stay in America would bankrupt a large percentage of our population, since the national median income is just above of $50,000. So, arguments agains the provision of universal healthcare, in my humble and biased opinion, are SILLY!!!
I find this thread quite sad that there is "debate" about the right to health and vitality in the United States. It's a shame when a company is willing to put profit above the health and well-being of ALL its citizens. These thoughts come from a person who has had a week stay in a hospital, and THANK GOD, our family has the financial wherewithall to AFFORD insurance! The bill was at least $15K (probably more, but my memory escapes me), so imagine if I was a single mother with 3 kids. Catch my drift? Also, my wife has had two major surgeries with double-digit costs, but again, we can afford insurance. Imagine the financial pickle we'd be in if we were uninsured. An extended hospital stay in America would bankrupt a large percentage of our population, since the national median income is just above of $50,000. So, arguments agains the provision of universal healthcare, in my humble and biased opinion, are SILLY!!!
"Harvard researchers say 62% of all personal bankruptcies in the U.S. in 2007 were caused by health problems???and 78% of those filers had insurance."[/b]
I believe medical costs are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Hey Folks,
I find this thread quite sad that there is "debate" about the right to health and vitality in the United States. It's a shame when a company is willing to put profit above the health and well-being of ALL its citizens. These thoughts come from a person who has had a week stay in a hospital, and THANK GOD, our family has the financial wherewithall to AFFORD insurance! The bill was at least $15K (probably more, but my memory escapes me), so imagine if I was a single mother with 3 kids. Catch my drift? Also, my wife has had two major surgeries with double-digit costs, but again, we can afford insurance. Imagine the financial pickle we'd be in if we were uninsured. An extended hospital stay in America would bankrupt a large percentage of our population, since the national median income is just above of $50,000. So, arguments agains the provision of universal healthcare, in my humble and biased opinion, are SILLY!!!
"Harvard researchers say 62% of all personal bankruptcies in the U.S. in 2007 were caused by health problems???and 78% of those filers had insurance."[/b]
I believe medical costs are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States.
Shit, DOR, I think me and the wife my retire to Sweden in our old age. The vitality of the elderly population there was mindboggling . We saw old folks riding bikes up steep hills, running, etc. But then again, that national healthcare is so awful for giving Sweden a (slightly) higher life expectancy (Avg = 80.86 years) than in the U.S. (Avg = 78.11; Source: CIA World Factbook 2008 see here: CIA World Factbook 2008)
I find this thread quite sad that there is "debate" about the right to health and vitality in the United States.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Affordable healthcare for everyone would be awesome. I seriously hope to see it someday.
But,
It is NOT a right.
it is a right! a basic human right. 6+ billion people on this planet and we do have the knowledge and technology to treat many of the health woes that people suffer from. its the for profit system that is keeping us back.
I find this thread quite sad that there is "debate" about the right to health and vitality in the United States. It's a shame when a company is willing to put profit above the health and well-being of ALL its citizens. These thoughts come from a person who has had a week stay in a hospital, and THANK GOD, our family has the financial wherewithall to AFFORD insurance! The bill was at least $15K (probably more, but my memory escapes me), so imagine if I was a single mother with 3 kids. Catch my drift? Also, my wife has had two major surgeries with double-digit costs, but again, we can afford insurance. Imagine the financial pickle we'd be in if we were uninsured. An extended hospital stay in America would bankrupt a large percentage of our population, since the national median income is just above of $50,000. So, arguments agains the provision of universal healthcare, in my humble and biased opinion, are SILLY!!!
"Harvard researchers say 62% of all personal bankruptcies in the U.S. in 2007 were caused by health problems???and 78% of those filers had insurance."[/b]
I believe medical costs are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States.
Shit, DOR, I think me and the wife my retire to Sweden in our old age. The vitality of the elderly population there was mindboggling . We saw old folks riding bikes up steep hills, running, etc. But then again, that national healthcare is so awful for giving Sweden a (slightly) higher life expectancy (Avg = 80.86 years) than in the U.S. (Avg = 78.11; Source: CIA World Factbook 2008 see here: CIA World Factbook 2008)
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
To be fair. I'm guessing this graph includes cosmetic surgery spending. Which I'm betting the US is higher than most countries.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Hey Folks,
I find this thread quite sad that there is "debate" about the right to health and vitality in the United States. It's a shame when a company is willing to put profit above the health and well-being of ALL its citizens. These thoughts come from a person who has had a week stay in a hospital, and THANK GOD, our family has the financial wherewithall to AFFORD insurance! The bill was at least $15K (probably more, but my memory escapes me), so imagine if I was a single mother with 3 kids. Catch my drift? Also, my wife has had two major surgeries with double-digit costs, but again, we can afford insurance. Imagine the financial pickle we'd be in if we were uninsured. An extended hospital stay in America would bankrupt a large percentage of our population, since the national median income is just above of $50,000. So, arguments agains the provision of universal healthcare, in my humble and biased opinion, are SILLY!!!
"Harvard researchers say 62% of all personal bankruptcies in the U.S. in 2007 were caused by health problems???and 78% of those filers had insurance."[/b]
I believe medical costs are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States.
Shit, DOR, I think me and the wife my retire to Sweden in our old age. The vitality of the elderly population there was mindboggling . We saw old folks riding bikes up steep hills, running, etc. But then again, that national healthcare is so awful for giving Sweden a (slightly) higher life expectancy (Avg = 80.86 years) than in the U.S. (Avg = 78.11; Source: CIA World Factbook 2008 see here: CIA World Factbook 2008)
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
To be fair. I'm guessing this graph includes cosmetic surgery spending. Which I'm betting the US is higher than most countries.
Now DOR, don't you go confusing ideologues by making points using scientific evidence! To them, armchair speculation, self-serving biases, and opinions are more compelling than cold, hard facts. "I revolve around science!!!" Why advocate for the greater good of all when one can simply advance his/her selfish, monetary interests (and those of shareholders)? That's the American way!!!
I find this thread quite sad that there is "debate" about the right to health and vitality in the United States.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Affordable healthcare for everyone would be awesome. I seriously hope to see it someday.
But,
It is NOT a right.
it is a right! a basic human right. 6+ billion people on this planet and we do have the knowledge and technology to treat many of the health woes that people suffer from. its the for profit system that is keeping us back.
Obviously the provision of such things is not possible in many countries. But the first world is prosperous enough that it should be able to provide basic health care for its people and it has a moral responsibility to do so.
I'm assuming your "Wow" was about that latter part. Not about the potential of spending $1000s of dollars on shoes. Or Iphones. Or what have you. Everyone's got their twist.
OR GOD FORBID $500 PAUL MCCARTNEY TICKETS!!!
jesus, seriously...
Seriously.....the first penny I spend each month, before I even spend a penny to put food in my familie's mouth is to pay for Health Insurance......been that way for 33 years. Regardless of what else I can spend, health insurance is top priority.
Folks going to concerts, buying luxuries, etc. w/o Health Care is shameful.
I'm not sure why you are trying to compare doctors & corperations.
My comparison of the two was directed strictly at your comment below.....doctors advertise, doctors promote their services and doctors grow their business....doctors make money from people's misery....the difference is doing it honestly or unscrupulously....I'm not ready to convict every insurance company as unscrupulous......from the evidence in your video I'd say there's a good chance Cigna is/has been.
My experiences with Insurance companies have been favorable....from having a child with life threatening meningitis to having my home burn down to the ground.
If profit on human suffering is not just agreeable, but to be promoted. I'd rather be poor. But hey, thats just me.
Rock. Post a link where a doctor made profit for denying care.
I'll show you plenty of doctors that have had their license suspended or even jailed for practicing incorrectly or illegally.
According to the JAMA(Journal Of American Medical Association)there are 225,000 deaths each year, due to medical negligence of some nature....there are an additional 85,000 simple medical malpractice suits filed per year....that's one per every 10 doctors.
But just because some doctors are crooks/inept doesn't mean the government should take over their industry, there are rules and regulations in place to take care of these things and that's what the Insurance industry needs. Tighter and enforced regulations.
Quite frankly I find it disturbing to see people, even here on SS, who claim they don't have health insurance yet they have a car, computer, records, money for clubs, designer clothes and VICES.
How do you expect socierty to make health care the top priority when most individuals don't until they need it.
Comments
Are you suggesting doctors should not get paid?
If this shit is more important than health to ANY one, they need to reassess their priorities.
Don't most doctors take an oath where they promise to put a humans well being above all else?
I'm not saying profit is bad. But did you watch the video yet?
This isn't about profit. It's about taking advantage of as many people as possible all in the name of things like a companies stock prices.
The guy in the video just isn't some Communist. He was the head of corporate communications at CIGNA. Listen to what he has to say.
I watched 30 minutes of the video......long enough to see that gold rimmed plates in First Class on a private jet made the dude realize the excess, beyond simple profit, and I agree with his outrage.
Greed is also what took down GM.....the majority of the auto industry still stands and is profitable.
This doesn't mean government control of either is a great idea.
Doctors are some of the richest people in our society.
And they "profit" on people's misery more than just about anyone else, regardless of their oath or intent.
The average doctor makes a hell of a lot more cash than your average insurance salesman.
And from everything I have read doctors are split close to 50/50 on whether or not Universal Healthcare is a good idea.
While insurance corps are geared to not helping? They are geared to stock value and making profit by not covering their clients.
I'm not sure why you are trying to compare doctors & corporations.
Actually, it looks to me like Dr's salaries are surprisingly modest considering the level of training and time involved.
http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary2.html
Nobody's on the welfare line, but 150 - 250K? I would have thought it was much more than that.
Edit: This is most likely a very biased site, but the first one I found...
http://www.harp.org/hmoexecs.htm
How many doctors are making this kind of money? Note: Ignore the salaries and look at unexercised stock options.
Doctors make lots of money, sure. But their salaries are an expense to insurance companies. Insurance salesmen are salesmen, most are contractors (the insurance salesman racket is a whole nother story) and get commissions on sales. Upper management and investors are who the profits go to. If the companies every year face pressure from Wall St to spend less of our premiums on health care and more on profit, you can see who's getting fucked. It's not the investors.
Well, I think the way to do that is not to separate it out as a "healthcare" fee but lump it into something nondescript. Like taxes. Something most right wing/libertarian type cats are loathe to talk about.
For me personally:
1. My healthcare cost, prior to getting married, was ~ $400 a month. A MONTH.
2. I don't buy $110 kicks. If I did, it would still be cheaper - per year - than healthcare. I don't own an Iphone. But if I did, it would still be cheaper - per year - than healthcare. I do buy cable TV, and it's split between me and my wife. It comes down to about $60 a month per person, including high speed internet. That is about 1/4 of the healthcare cost that I was faced with as a single man.
3. I do spend, probably, $300+ at the bar every month. When the United States of America feels it important enough to send guys like me in to buy healthcare before liquor, I'll listen. Somehow, I think that won't happen.
If someone wants to say that's a personal choice... I'll say fine, I suppose it is... I'll also say that I've been sick, I've been locked up, and I've been down on my luck... all within the last six months. And I'm glad whiskey was easily available, in all instances!
My comparison of the two was directed strictly at your comment below.....doctors advertise, doctors promote their services and doctors grow their business....doctors make money from people's misery....the difference is doing it honestly or unscrupulously....I'm not ready to convict every insurance company as unscrupulous......from the evidence in your video I'd say there's a good chance Cigna is/has been.
My experiences with Insurance companies have been favorable....from having a child with life threatening meningitis to having my home burn down to the ground.
Wow
I worked in the insurance industry for 5 years. It's pretty unscrupulous, Rich.
Wow
I don't know what it's like where you live, but out here a round of whiskey costs about $10 including the tip. So $300/mo is a round a day. Some days, I don't go to the bar. Other days, I have two. Or I buy my employees a round.
I'm assuming your "Wow" was about that latter part. Not about the potential of spending $1000s of dollars on shoes. Or Iphones. Or what have you. Everyone's got their twist. I live of a fairly meager salary. I like a drink at the end of the day. So sue me. It'll cost you more than it will me!
Rock. Post a link where a doctor made profit for denying care.
OR GOD FORBID $500 PAUL MCCARTNEY TICKETS!!!
jesus, seriously...
I find this thread quite sad that there is "debate" about the right to health and vitality in the United States. It's a shame when a company is willing to put profit above the health and well-being of ALL this nation's citizens. These thoughts come from a person who has had a week stay in a hospital, and THANK GOD, our family has the financial wherewithall to AFFORD insurance! The bill was at least $15K (probably more, but my memory escapes me), so imagine if I were a single mother with 3 kids. Catch my drift? Also, my wife has had two major surgeries with double-digit costs, but again, we can afford insurance. Imagine the financial pickle we'd be in if we were uninsured. An extended hospital stay in America would bankrupt a large percentage of our population, since the national median income is just above of $50,000. So, arguments agains the provision of universal healthcare, in my humble and biased opinion, are SILLY!!!
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm
"Harvard researchers say 62% of all personal bankruptcies in the U.S. in 2007 were caused by health problems???and 78% of those filers had insurance."[/b]
I believe medical costs are the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States.
Shit, DOR, I think me and the wife my retire to Sweden in our old age. The vitality of the elderly population there was mindboggling
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Affordable healthcare for everyone would be awesome. I seriously hope to see it someday.
But,
It is NOT a right.
BUT is SHOULD BE a right. I don't think health (and related vitality) should be privileges.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
To be fair. I'm guessing this graph includes cosmetic surgery spending. Which I'm betting the US is higher than most countries.
Now DOR, don't you go confusing ideologues by making points using scientific evidence! To them, armchair speculation, self-serving biases, and opinions are more compelling than cold, hard facts.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Is this an argument that health coverage is a choice? That people decide to have things over being covered?
I just don't think that this is the majority.
Case in point.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/7...-in-a-nutshell.
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a25
Obviously the provision of such things is not possible in many countries. But the first world is prosperous enough that it should be able to provide basic health care for its people and it has a moral responsibility to do so.
Seriously.....the first penny I spend each month, before I even spend a penny to put food in my familie's mouth is to pay for Health Insurance......been that way for 33 years. Regardless of what else I can spend, health insurance is top priority.
Folks going to concerts, buying luxuries, etc. w/o Health Care is shameful.
If you made it a tax, then it wouldn't be an option would it.
If it were a Gov. tax then all the money you pay in would go on Health Care, nothing else[/b].
I'll show you plenty of doctors that have had their license suspended or even jailed for practicing incorrectly or illegally.
According to the JAMA(Journal Of American Medical Association)there are 225,000 deaths each year, due to medical negligence of some nature....there are an additional 85,000 simple medical malpractice suits filed per year....that's one per every 10 doctors.
But just because some doctors are crooks/inept doesn't mean the government should take over their industry, there are rules and regulations in place to take care of these things and that's what the Insurance industry needs. Tighter and enforced regulations.
Quite frankly I find it disturbing to see people, even here on SS, who claim they don't have health insurance yet they have a car, computer, records, money for clubs, designer clothes and VICES.
How do you expect socierty to make health care the top priority when most individuals don't until they need it.