"how erratic and unfit for leadership Zelaya has become" ...where are the examples? matter of fact I think he has been very 'cool and calm' in his responses. If he was erratic he'd be calling for civil war etc.
"bolstered by popular support for the interim government" what popular support? the ppl protesting at the airport where all reported as being Zelaya supporters. If the interim govt had popular support then why was the army used to stop his entry (and his supporters?)
"he would quickly join the lonely ranks of other regional coup victims such as Haiti's Jean-Bertrand Aristide and Ecuador's Jamil Mahuad ??? inept and corrupt heads of state that were also removed from office"
Where is the corruption? its not like he let his country be used as a training ground for terrorists like the Honduran leaders did during reagan and Bush Snr reign. If he was corrupt he would have much more support from the elite and would have had 'cronies' in the army IMO. Plus the coup leaders would have a good reason to put him on trial for it. Where is the evidence? the examples?
"atrocious governance record and erratic behaviour ??? which includes nearly doubling the minimum wage" And thats bad? In one of the poorest countries in the Americas? Thats a crime is it? Maybe theres the real reason for the coup....
I hope this doesnt escalate into a civil war... but I also hope this is a turning point for latin americans who are sick of having their futures dictated to them by unelected governments with foriegn backing.
I hope this doesnt escalate into a civil war... but I also hope this is a turning point for latin americans who are sick of having their futures dictated to them by unelected governments with foriegn backing.
Sorry...I couldn't find any articles by authors wearing a "Che" T-Shirt"
Exactly what foreign government do you believe is behind this??
It is not an unbiased article. It is an opinion piece from the opinion page of the Guardian's website.
Here is another opinion piece from the same source. Which according to you makes this unbiased and true.
When rallying in the streets of Tegucigalpa for the ousted President Manuel Zelaya, Alejandra Fernandez, a 23-year-old university student told a journalist why she supported Zelaya: "He raised the minimum wage, gave out free school lunches, provided milk for the babies and pensions for the elderly, distributed energy-saving light bulbs, decreased the price of public transportation, made more scholarships available for students." Others gathered around to mention the roads and schools in rural areas the president had created.
"That's why the elite classes can't stand him and why we want him back," Alejandra explained. "This is really a class struggle."
But it's not just because of these relatively progressive reforms that Zelaya enacted that he deserves our support. Nor is it simply because this democratically-elected leader was ousted in a repressive coup led by right-wing oligarchs and military officials trained at the infamous torture and counterinsurgency school, the School of the Americas, now known as Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, based in Georgia.
He also deserves our support because he was ultimately overthrown in response to his plans to organise a popular assembly to rewrite the country's constitution.
According to Central American political analyst Alberto Valiente Thoresen, Honduras's current constitution, written in 1982, "was the product of a context characterised by counter-insurgency policies supported by the US government, civil fa??ade military governments and undemocratic policies." In an assembly made up of elected representatives from various political parties and social sectors, a new, likely more progressive and inclusive constitution could have a lasting impact on the country's corrupt politicians, powerful sweatshop owners and repressive military institutions.
Many commentators have said that Zelaya sought to re-write the constitution to extend his time in office. Yet nothing indicates that that was the case. Leading up to the coup, Zelaya was pushing for a referendum on 28 June in which the ballot question was to be: "Do you agree that, during the general elections of November 2009 there should be a fourth ballot to decide whether to hold a Constituent National Assembly that will approve a new political constitution?" This non-binding referendum - not plans from Zelaya to expand his power ??? was enough to push right wing and military leaders to organise a coup.
If the Honduran people approved the formation of a constitutional assembly in November, it would likely take years ??? as it did recently in Bolivia ??? to rewrite the document. Zelaya would not be president as he would not be running in the upcoming elections. His term in office finishes in January 2010, too short a time to complete a national assembly's rewriting of the constitution.
Given that it was the call for the constituent assembly that led to the coup, it appears that the coup leaders are more worried about an assembly in which the people could re-write their own constitution, than Zelaya himself. Clearly it's the Honduran oligarchs, rather than Zelaya, who are more interested in concentrating and conserving their own power.
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton met with Zelaya in Washington today, and one development was that Costa Rica's president Oscar Arias will act as mediator for the return of Zelaya. But there still is plenty of room for improvement in the US's stance. The Obama administration should listen to Zelaya's demands rather than impose preconditions for US support. And it should avoid bullying Zelaya into dropping his plans for the new constitution, or limiting any progressive reforms he may want to enact upon returning to office. The Honduran people should decide what course Zelaya should take, not the Obama administration and certainly not any right wing junta.
Although the Obama administration has been critical of the coup and relatively supportive of Zelaya, it should go much further. Some clear signs that Washington backs Zelaya would be withdrawing the US ambassador from the country, following in the footsteps of the other nations that have condemned the coup. The US should also cut off all of its aid to the rogue government, and end all military aid to the country. These actions would put pressure on the already weak military and send a clearer message to the region that, at this point, Washington is entirely against the coup, and willing to respect demands from Latin American leaders, all of whom have called for Zelaya's reinstatement.
This past Sunday, after his plane was turned back upon trying to land in Honduras, Zelaya told reporters: "the United States, which has tremendous power, should take action. Specifically, the strongest government in economic matters, in aspects of the sphere of the dollar, for us is the United States. If they decide to live with the coup, then democracy in the Americas is over."
The question was; should the USA support the democratically elected government of Honduras or the military backed coup?
I'm not an expert on this situation, nor do I have strong feelings one way or the other, but...
I think this is a bit of an over-simplification.
He was democratically elected but has lost much of his popular support since (or so I have read), and has done some shady stuff to boot. I read where he has refused to sign over 80 laws passed by congress.
And the coup is backed by more than just the military, though they would of course be the ones to remove him from office.
On the surface this seems like an outrage, but the more details that come out the more it looks like he may have had it coming. It's certainly not cut-and-dried.
The question was; should the USA support the democratically elected government of Honduras or the military backed coup?
I'm not an expert on this situation, nor do I have strong feelings one way or the other, but...
I think this is a bit of an over-simplification.
He was democratically elected but has lost much of his popular support since (or so I have read), and has done some shady stuff to boot. I read where he has refused to sign over 80 laws passed by congress.
And the coup is backed by more than just the military, though they would of course be the ones to remove him from office.
On the surface this seems like an outrage, but the more details that come out the more it looks like he may have had it coming. It's certainly not cut-and-dried.
Yes it is an oversimplification. But lets look at your more complex analysis.
Would we accept a military backed overthrow of any our presidents for these reasons? Loss of popular support? Shady stuff? Refusal to sign bills?!??!??! (I can't believe you actually included that.)
Sounds like business as usual, not treason.
Given USA history in Latin America and Honduras, I am proud that for once, we are standing for democracy, and with the OAS and the UN.
I hope this doesnt escalate into a civil war... but I also hope this is a turning point for latin americans who are sick of having their futures dictated to them by unelected governments with foriegn backing.
Sorry...I couldn't find any articles by authors wearing a "Che" T-Shirt"
Exactly what foreign government do you believe is behind this??
Straight to the insults.... that seems to be your only way of debating. I didn't insult you personally to make my point, and my arguement was with the 'unbiased' article you posted. I was highlighting the lack of balance, evidence or actual journalistic research your so called unbiased article had.
Che shirt or not, your posting up an opinion piece by a writer with pre conceived ideas that HE DID NOT PROVIDE PROOF FOR... The fact that you couldn't challenge any of the points I raised, but instead had to result to name calling shows me that you know Im correct in my criticism....
BTW do you know any other left wing figures other than Che....its kinda lame you always go down the same path.... Time to step out of the school yard champ and grow the F*ck up.... Is that how you teach your kids to debate and dialogue with people? Ridicule instead of research?
If you look at the history of Latin American politics and especially coups, there has always been foreign elements involved, not just the US and European nations but also local Latin American governments....
What I was saying in the quoted bit above was that I would like to see the people of Latin America able to exercise the freedom to determine their destiny without outside influences.
At the moment the foreign govt involved include the US, Argentina, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, Cuba, Canada, EU, Brazil etc etc. because all those govt are having a say one way or the other.
But the main backer of the coup, without realising it or not, is the US because they have provided the Honduran Army with weapons, training and money for decades...the same army that refused to allow the ballot and the same army that illegally arrested the elected president and exiled him.
The fact that the US is considering cutting military aid, shows how important that support is. That no one in the higher levels of the US Defence Dept or CIA was aware of the coup plans...I find it hard to believe.
If anyone is wondering what Loko meant by US providing "training", you should really do some reading on the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, widely known as the School of the Americas. School of the Americas graduates General Romeo Velasquez, head of the Honduran Joint Chiefs of Staff, and General Luis Javier Prince Suazo, commander of the Honduran Air Force, led the coup.
interesting side note, the terrorist Luis Posada Carriles, currently harboured by the US, was also schooled at the SOA.
The question was; should the USA support the democratically elected government of Honduras or the military backed coup?
I'm not an expert on this situation, nor do I have strong feelings one way or the other, but...
I think this is a bit of an over-simplification.
He was democratically elected but has lost much of his popular support since (or so I have read), and has done some shady stuff to boot. I read where he has refused to sign over 80 laws passed by congress.
Refusal to sign bills?!??!??! (I can't believe you actually included that.)
Sounds like business as usual, not treason.
Do you actually think refusing to sign law after law passed democratically by congress is business as usual?
Indeed it is, it is called a presidential veto and many countries have it. It's not as though the honduran congress has no capacity to fight against a presidential veto, unlike many countries. The Honduran congress needs a two-thirds majority in order to override a presidential veto.
One notable recent Zelaya veto related to the congress attempt at prohibiting the morning after pill. Zelaya rightly vetoed that shit.
I hope this doesnt escalate into a civil war... but I also hope this is a turning point for latin americans who are sick of having their futures dictated to them by unelected governments with foriegn backing.
Sorry...I couldn't find any articles by authors wearing a "Che" T-Shirt"
Exactly what foreign government do you believe is behind this??
Straight to the insults.... that seems to be your only way of debating.
It was sarcasm, not an insult....you see I know the game, post an article/piece and have it immediately disregarded as "right wing"(as you did) based on what site it is from. The article was taken from a UK paper that is recognized as center/left, not some Stormfront Limbaugh-like site.
But that doesn't matter, if it doesn't agree with your left wing views, it's biased.
What is happening in Honduras is very plain and simple to me. Zelaya, in an attempt to procure a Castro/Chavez like stronghold on Honduras announced that he was going to attempt to overturn part of their Constitution which he had been elected to uphold. Article 239 of said Constitution plainly states that these actions cause him to forfeit his position and Article 313 states that the Congress and Supreme Court have the authority to use military force to do so.
You may not agree with these facts but that's the way it is.
"But, but, but Zelaya was just trying to help the poor people, after all he DOUBLED the minimum wage and that pissed off the rich elite"
How the hell can raising the minimum wage be a bad thing??
Well when you do it in the manner Zelaya did, it resulted in more unemployment and more businesses going under....and surprise, more poor people.
His own party recognized what he was trying to do and wanted the dude gone.
When you want to become a leader like Castro or Chavez, the poor is the way to do it....as a matter of fact, the MORE poor folks, the more support the champion of the poor receives.
Have you ever been to Cuba or spoken to people who lived there when Castro took over??
Here's what most Jr. Revolutionaries fail to understand....screwing the rich doesn't automatically help the poor.....and more often than not it hurts them in the long run.
This is what the middle and upper classes of Honduras fears...and they have the same rights as the poor.....and they are trying to save their country from this fate, even in the face of opposition from most of the world.
On the surface someone like Castro can appear to be good for the downtrodden and poor. When after 40+ years of rule these same people are all still downtrodden and poor Castro is revealed as nothing more than a selfish dictator. Just ask any of the 10,000's who risked their lives to leave, and are still doing so.
There is a reason the hardworking Cubans in Miami will take to the streets in celebration when Castro passes away.
The folks in Honduras want to dance in their own streets, not someone elses.
You can talk about Latin America history and American meddling all you want but what we have here is a situation that is NOT being directly backed by any outside government and Honduras is actually standing up against all of these historically meddling countries.
Let's see how it plays out....again, my guess is people around the world will begin to see this for what it really is and withdraw their support for Zelaya.
The fetishization of democracy on display here is so so lame. Democracy is not magic, it is not some form of moral alchemy wherby the addition of public support turns wrong into right. By my reckoning it is the morality of men which is determined by the acts they support and not the morality of acts determined by the men who support them.
Evidently the drafters of the honduran constitution, just like the drafters of the US constitution, agree with Dolo since neither the US or Honduras are majoritarian states. Let us be clear what democracy means in the modern sense: it means that people get to choose who they would like to undertake the proper and enumerated functions of government. It is not a reinterpretation of the 'divinity of kings' with 'the people' appointing leaders in place of god, a system in whichever act performed by their appointment is made just by virtue of their appointment. If an elected official goes beyond the bounds of the powers afforded to them then it doesnt matter in how big a landslide they were elected in or how much public support they still command - they have to go.
If there is any criticism to be made against this 'coup' it is to be made on the basis that zeylalalalala shouldve been ousted through the proper legal channels and not through military force. Not on the idiotic basis that the thugish turd zeylalalala was democratically elected and therfore is entitled to do what he pleases.
I hope this doesnt escalate into a civil war... but I also hope this is a turning point for latin americans who are sick of having their futures dictated to them by unelected governments with foriegn backing.
Sorry...I couldn't find any articles by authors wearing a "Che" T-Shirt"
Exactly what foreign government do you believe is behind this??
Straight to the insults.... that seems to be your only way of debating.
It was sarcasm, not an insult....you see I know the game, post an article/piece and have it immediately disregarded as "right wing"(as you did) based on what site it is from. The article was taken from a UK paper that is recognized as center/left, not some Stormfront Limbaugh-like site.
But that doesn't matter, if it doesn't agree with your left wing views, it's biased.
What is happening in Honduras is very plain and simple to me. Zelaya, in an attempt to procure a Castro/Chavez like stronghold on Honduras announced that he was going to attempt to overturn part of their Constitution which he had been elected to uphold. Article 239 of said Constitution plainly states that these actions cause him to forfeit his position and Article 313 states that the Congress and Supreme Court have the authority to use military force to do so.
You may not agree with these facts but that's the way it is.
"But, but, but Zelaya was just trying to help the poor people, after all he DOUBLED the minimum wage and that pissed off the rich elite"
How the hell can raising the minimum wage be a bad thing??
Well when you do it in the manner Zelaya did, it resulted in more unemployment and more businesses going under....and surprise, more poor people.
His own party recognized what he was trying to do and wanted the dude gone.
When you want to become a leader like Castro or Chavez, the poor is the way to do it....as a matter of fact, the MORE poor folks, the more support the champion of the poor receives.
Have you ever been to Cuba or spoken to people who lived there when Castro took over??
Here's what most Jr. Revolutionaries fail to understand....screwing the rich doesn't automatically help the poor.....and more often than not it hurts them in the long run.
This is what the middle and upper classes of Honduras fears...and they have the same rights as the poor.....and they are trying to save their country from this fate, even in the face of opposition from most of the world.
On the surface someone like Castro can appear to be good for the downtrodden and poor. When after 40+ years of rule these same people are all still downtrodden and poor Castro is revealed as nothing more than a selfish dictator. Just ask any of the 10,000's who risked their lives to leave, and are still doing so.
There is a reason the hardworking Cubans in Miami will take to the streets in celebration when Castro passes away.
The folks in Honduras want to dance in their own streets, not someone elses.
You can talk about Latin America history and American meddling all you want but what we have here is a situation that is NOT being directly backed by any outside government and Honduras is actually standing up against all of these historically meddling countries.
Let's see how it plays out....again, my guess is people around the world will begin to see this for what it really is and withdraw their support for Zelaya.
Only time will tell.....and I'll be here.
This is a great post and much appreciated. You straight out say what you feel and why. No BS. You should try this more often.
If there is any criticism to be made against this 'coup' it is to be made on the basis that zeylalalalala shouldve been ousted through the proper legal channels and not through military force. Not on the idiotic basis that the thugish turd zeylalalala was democratically elected and therfore is entitled to do what he pleases.
Good point.
Saying that he can do whatever he wants because he was elected by a majority is no more legit than saying what the military did was ok because a majority give him low approval ratings.
Saying that he, and the opposition, should have followed proper legal channels is what I have always said. Military coups are never proper legal channels even if they install a "president".
I have yet to a single news report detailing any crime Zeyala has committed. Only opinion pieces about what people think he was going to do in the future. And nonsense about not signing bills being a crime.
I have yet to a single news report detailing any crime Zeyala has committed. Only opinion pieces about what people think he was going to do in the future. And nonsense about not signing bills being a crime.
Here are some details coming out of Honduras.....time will tell.
Zelaya is facing four charges: abuse of power, treason, usurping his duties and attempts against the form of government. Only treason and attempts against the form of government might be considered "political" charges, legal experts said.
Any legal woes for Zelaya stem from a single issue: his aggressive pursuit of a national referendum that he hoped would allow him to rewrite the constitution.
As congress and the courts legally blocked him each step of the way, Zelaya switched tactics, ignored rulings and fired those who got in the way. It came to a crisis point on June 25 when he rallied his supporters to break into a government building and seize the impounded referendum material, which was under guard. That was the last straw.
On June 26, the Supreme Court ordered his arrest, according to documents provided by the attorney general's office. On the morning of June 28 -- the day the referendum was to take place -- masked soldiers escorted Zelaya at gunpoint onto an airplane in his pajamas and flew him to Costa Rica.
In addition, Zelaya's chief of staff, Enrique Flores Lanza, is accused of abuse of power and misuse of public funds for withdrawing about $2.2 million in cash from the Central Bank on June 24.
Urtecho said there may be more charges in the pipeline. "We have received reports about government contracts that violated the law," he said. "But all the documentation we needed has been in the hands of the government officials who vacated their offices on June 28."
I have yet to a single news report detailing any crime Zeyala has committed. Only opinion pieces about what people think he was going to do in the future. And nonsense about not signing bills being a crime.
Here are some details coming out of Honduras.....time will tell.
Zelaya is facing four charges: abuse of power, treason, usurping his duties and attempts against the form of government. Only treason and attempts against the form of government might be considered "political" charges, legal experts said.
Any legal woes for Zelaya stem from a single issue: his aggressive pursuit of a national referendum that he hoped would allow him to rewrite the constitution.
As congress and the courts legally blocked him each step of the way, Zelaya switched tactics, ignored rulings and fired those who got in the way. It came to a crisis point on June 25 when he rallied his supporters to break into a government building and seize the impounded referendum material, which was under guard. That was the last straw.
On June 26, the Supreme Court ordered his arrest, according to documents provided by the attorney general's office. On the morning of June 28 -- the day the referendum was to take place -- masked soldiers escorted Zelaya at gunpoint onto an airplane in his pajamas and flew him to Costa Rica.
In addition, Zelaya's chief of staff, Enrique Flores Lanza, is accused of abuse of power and misuse of public funds for withdrawing about $2.2 million in cash from the Central Bank on June 24.
Urtecho said there may be more charges in the pipeline. "We have received reports about government contracts that violated the law," he said. "But all the documentation we needed has been in the hands of the government officials who vacated their offices on June 28."
This is exactly what I am talking about when I said I have not seen a news report detailing his crimes.
This is an analysis article, not a news report.
Do you really not know the difference?
"Any legal woes for Zelaya stem from a single issue: his aggressive pursuit of a national referendum that he hoped would allow him to rewrite the constitution."
All the reports I have seen said he was looking to have a constitutional congress or committee amend the constitution. This analysis says that "he" would "rewrite the constitution". Either every report I have seen is wrong, or this analysis is extremely biased.
I don't know where you got this but let me tell you about news reporting. News reports are filed by reporters who either witness, or use first person sources to report events. Reporters are identified either by name, or by their the name of their wire service. Sources are identified. Opinions and analysis are kept to a minimum.
When you get a sentence like; "That was the last straw." you know you are not looking at good news reporting.
Your article identifies "legal Experts". We do not know if these experts are Honduran, have been to law school, or are members of the new government. An other
An other source is the mysterious Urtecho.
This is a legit source: "according to documents provided by the attorney general's office".
Listen, you believe that Zelaya=Chaves=Castro, thus he should have been ousted.
Comments
"how erratic and unfit for leadership Zelaya has become"
...where are the examples? matter of fact I think he has been very 'cool and calm' in his responses. If he was erratic he'd be calling for civil war etc.
"bolstered by popular support for the interim government"
what popular support? the ppl protesting at the airport where all reported as being Zelaya supporters. If the interim govt had popular support then why was the army used to stop his entry (and his supporters?)
"he would quickly join the lonely ranks of other regional coup victims such as Haiti's Jean-Bertrand Aristide and Ecuador's Jamil Mahuad ??? inept and corrupt heads of state that were also removed from office"
Where is the corruption? its not like he let his country be used as a training ground for terrorists like the Honduran leaders did during reagan and Bush Snr reign. If he was corrupt he would have much more support from the elite and would have had 'cronies' in the army IMO. Plus the coup leaders would have a good reason to put him on trial for it.
Where is the evidence? the examples?
"atrocious governance record and erratic behaviour ??? which includes nearly doubling the minimum wage"
And thats bad? In one of the poorest countries in the Americas? Thats a crime is it? Maybe theres the real reason for the coup....
I hope this doesnt escalate into a civil war... but I also hope this is a turning point for latin americans who are sick of having their futures dictated to them by unelected governments with foriegn backing.
Sorry...I couldn't find any articles by authors wearing a "Che" T-Shirt"
Exactly what foreign government do you believe is behind this??
It is not an unbiased article.
It is an opinion piece from the opinion page of the Guardian's website.
Here is another opinion piece from the same source.
Which according to you makes this unbiased and true.
When rallying in the streets of Tegucigalpa for the ousted President Manuel Zelaya, Alejandra Fernandez, a 23-year-old university student told a journalist why she supported Zelaya: "He raised the minimum wage, gave out free school lunches, provided milk for the babies and pensions for the elderly, distributed energy-saving light bulbs, decreased the price of public transportation, made more scholarships available for students." Others gathered around to mention the roads and schools in rural areas the president had created.
"That's why the elite classes can't stand him and why we want him back," Alejandra explained. "This is really a class struggle."
But it's not just because of these relatively progressive reforms that Zelaya enacted that he deserves our support. Nor is it simply because this democratically-elected leader was ousted in a repressive coup led by right-wing oligarchs and military officials trained at the infamous torture and counterinsurgency school, the School of the Americas, now known as Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, based in Georgia.
He also deserves our support because he was ultimately overthrown in response to his plans to organise a popular assembly to rewrite the country's constitution.
According to Central American political analyst Alberto Valiente Thoresen, Honduras's current constitution, written in 1982, "was the product of a context characterised by counter-insurgency policies supported by the US government, civil fa??ade military governments and undemocratic policies." In an assembly made up of elected representatives from various political parties and social sectors, a new, likely more progressive and inclusive constitution could have a lasting impact on the country's corrupt politicians, powerful sweatshop owners and repressive military institutions.
Many commentators have said that Zelaya sought to re-write the constitution to extend his time in office. Yet nothing indicates that that was the case. Leading up to the coup, Zelaya was pushing for a referendum on 28 June in which the ballot question was to be: "Do you agree that, during the general elections of November 2009 there should be a fourth ballot to decide whether to hold a Constituent National Assembly that will approve a new political constitution?" This non-binding referendum - not plans from Zelaya to expand his power ??? was enough to push right wing and military leaders to organise a coup.
If the Honduran people approved the formation of a constitutional assembly in November, it would likely take years ??? as it did recently in Bolivia ??? to rewrite the document. Zelaya would not be president as he would not be running in the upcoming elections. His term in office finishes in January 2010, too short a time to complete a national assembly's rewriting of the constitution.
Given that it was the call for the constituent assembly that led to the coup, it appears that the coup leaders are more worried about an assembly in which the people could re-write their own constitution, than Zelaya himself. Clearly it's the Honduran oligarchs, rather than Zelaya, who are more interested in concentrating and conserving their own power.
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton met with Zelaya in Washington today, and one development was that Costa Rica's president Oscar Arias will act as mediator for the return of Zelaya. But there still is plenty of room for improvement in the US's stance. The Obama administration should listen to Zelaya's demands rather than impose preconditions for US support. And it should avoid bullying Zelaya into dropping his plans for the new constitution, or limiting any progressive reforms he may want to enact upon returning to office. The Honduran people should decide what course Zelaya should take, not the Obama administration and certainly not any right wing junta.
Although the Obama administration has been critical of the coup and relatively supportive of Zelaya, it should go much further. Some clear signs that Washington backs Zelaya would be withdrawing the US ambassador from the country, following in the footsteps of the other nations that have condemned the coup. The US should also cut off all of its aid to the rogue government, and end all military aid to the country. These actions would put pressure on the already weak military and send a clearer message to the region that, at this point, Washington is entirely against the coup, and willing to respect demands from Latin American leaders, all of whom have called for Zelaya's reinstatement.
This past Sunday, after his plane was turned back upon trying to land in Honduras, Zelaya told reporters: "the United States, which has tremendous power, should take action. Specifically, the strongest government in economic matters, in aspects of the sphere of the dollar, for us is the United States. If they decide to live with the coup, then democracy in the Americas is over."
I think he was democratically elected.
That wasn't the question.
How about Fidel Castro??
Here's an interesting article by a Honduran national from 4 months ago.
http://borninhonduras.blogspot.com/2009/03/manuel-zelaya-our-controversial.html
No. I don't think Castro is a democratic ruler.
What do you think of the Myanmar president?
You are right.
The question was; should the USA support the democratically elected government of Honduras or the military backed coup?
You know where I stand, I have no idea where you stand.
I don't like mustard on my hamburgers.
I'm not an expert on this situation, nor do I have strong feelings one way or the other, but...
I think this is a bit of an over-simplification.
He was democratically elected but has lost much of his popular support since (or so I have read), and has done some shady stuff to boot. I read where he has refused to sign over 80 laws passed by congress.
And the coup is backed by more than just the military, though they would of course be the ones to remove him from office.
On the surface this seems like an outrage, but the more details that come out the more it looks like he may have had it coming. It's certainly not cut-and-dried.
Yes it is an oversimplification.
But lets look at your more complex analysis.
Would we accept a military backed overthrow of any our presidents for these reasons?
Loss of popular support?
Shady stuff?
Refusal to sign bills?!??!??! (I can't believe you actually included that.)
Sounds like business as usual, not treason.
Given USA history in Latin America and Honduras, I am proud that for once, we are standing for democracy, and with the OAS and the UN.
Straight to the insults.... that seems to be your only way of debating. I didn't insult you personally to make my point, and my arguement was with the 'unbiased' article you posted. I was highlighting the lack of balance, evidence or actual journalistic research your so called unbiased article had.
Che shirt or not, your posting up an opinion piece by a writer with pre conceived ideas that HE DID NOT PROVIDE PROOF FOR... The fact that you couldn't challenge any of the points I raised, but instead had to result to name calling shows me that you know Im correct in my criticism....
BTW do you know any other left wing figures other than Che....its kinda lame you always go down the same path.... Time to step out of the school yard champ and grow the F*ck up.... Is that how you teach your kids to debate and dialogue with people? Ridicule instead of research?
If you look at the history of Latin American politics and especially coups, there has always been foreign elements involved, not just the US and European nations but also local Latin American governments....
What I was saying in the quoted bit above was that I would like to see the people of Latin America able to exercise the freedom to determine their destiny without outside influences.
At the moment the foreign govt involved include the US, Argentina, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, Cuba, Canada, EU, Brazil etc etc. because all those govt are having a say one way or the other.
But the main backer of the coup, without realising it or not, is the US because they have provided the Honduran Army with weapons, training and money for decades...the same army that refused to allow the ballot and the same army that illegally arrested the elected president and exiled him.
The fact that the US is considering cutting military aid, shows how important that support is. That no one in the higher levels of the US Defence Dept or CIA was aware of the coup plans...I find it hard to believe.
interesting side note, the terrorist Luis Posada Carriles, currently harboured by the US, was also schooled at the SOA.
This sounds an awful lot like this assclown...
Do you actually think refusing to sign law after law passed democratically by congress is business as usual?
Indeed it is, it is called a presidential veto and many countries have it. It's not as though the honduran congress has no capacity to fight against a presidential veto, unlike many countries. The Honduran congress needs a two-thirds majority in order to override a presidential veto.
One notable recent Zelaya veto related to the congress attempt at prohibiting the morning after pill. Zelaya rightly vetoed that shit.
Bush did it all the time, not by veto, but via signing statement. Not actually "refusing to sign", more like finding a way to ignore...
It was sarcasm, not an insult....you see I know the game, post an article/piece and have it immediately disregarded as "right wing"(as you did) based on what site it is from. The article was taken from a UK paper that is recognized as center/left, not some Stormfront Limbaugh-like site.
But that doesn't matter, if it doesn't agree with your left wing views, it's biased.
What is happening in Honduras is very plain and simple to me. Zelaya, in an attempt to procure a Castro/Chavez like stronghold on Honduras announced that he was going to attempt to overturn part of their Constitution which he had been elected to uphold. Article 239 of said Constitution plainly states that these actions cause him to forfeit his position and Article 313 states that the Congress and Supreme Court have the authority to use military force to do so.
You may not agree with these facts but that's the way it is.
"But, but, but Zelaya was just trying to help the poor people, after all he DOUBLED the minimum wage and that pissed off the rich elite"
How the hell can raising the minimum wage be a bad thing??
Well when you do it in the manner Zelaya did, it resulted in more unemployment and more businesses going under....and surprise, more poor people.
His own party recognized what he was trying to do and wanted the dude gone.
When you want to become a leader like Castro or Chavez, the poor is the way to do it....as a matter of fact, the MORE poor folks, the more support the champion of the poor receives.
Have you ever been to Cuba or spoken to people who lived there when Castro took over??
Here's what most Jr. Revolutionaries fail to understand....screwing the rich doesn't automatically help the poor.....and more often than not it hurts them in the long run.
This is what the middle and upper classes of Honduras fears...and they have the same rights as the poor.....and they are trying to save their country from this fate, even in the face of opposition from most of the world.
On the surface someone like Castro can appear to be good for the downtrodden and poor. When after 40+ years of rule these same people are all still downtrodden and poor Castro is revealed as nothing more than a selfish dictator.
Just ask any of the 10,000's who risked their lives to leave, and are still doing so.
There is a reason the hardworking Cubans in Miami will take to the streets in celebration when Castro passes away.
The folks in Honduras want to dance in their own streets, not someone elses.
You can talk about Latin America history and American meddling all you want but what we have here is a situation that is NOT being directly backed by any outside government and Honduras is actually standing up against all of these historically meddling countries.
Let's see how it plays out....again, my guess is people around the world will begin to see this for what it really is and withdraw their support for Zelaya.
Only time will tell.....and I'll be here.
Evidently the drafters of the honduran constitution, just like the drafters of the US constitution, agree with Dolo since neither the US or Honduras are majoritarian states. Let us be clear what democracy means in the modern sense: it means that people get to choose who they would like to undertake the proper and enumerated functions of government. It is not a reinterpretation of the 'divinity of kings' with 'the people' appointing leaders in place of god, a system in whichever act performed by their appointment is made just by virtue of their appointment. If an elected official goes beyond the bounds of the powers afforded to them then it doesnt matter in how big a landslide they were elected in or how much public support they still command - they have to go.
If there is any criticism to be made against this 'coup' it is to be made on the basis that zeylalalalala shouldve been ousted through the proper legal channels and not through military force. Not on the idiotic basis that the thugish turd zeylalalala was democratically elected and therfore is entitled to do what he pleases.
This is a great post and much appreciated.
You straight out say what you feel and why.
No BS.
You should try this more often.
Good point.
Saying that he can do whatever he wants because he was elected by a majority is no more legit than saying what the military did was ok because a majority give him low approval ratings.
Saying that he, and the opposition, should have followed proper legal channels is what I have always said. Military coups are never proper legal channels even if they install a "president".
I have yet to a single news report detailing any crime Zeyala has committed.
Only opinion pieces about what people think he was going to do in the future.
And nonsense about not signing bills being a crime.
Here are some details coming out of Honduras.....time will tell.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Zelaya is facing four charges: abuse of power, treason, usurping his duties and attempts against the form of government. Only treason and attempts against the form of government might be considered "political" charges, legal experts said.
Any legal woes for Zelaya stem from a single issue: his aggressive pursuit of a national referendum that he hoped would allow him to rewrite the constitution.
As congress and the courts legally blocked him each step of the way, Zelaya switched tactics, ignored rulings and fired those who got in the way. It came to a crisis point on June 25 when he rallied his supporters to break into a government building and seize the impounded referendum material, which was under guard. That was the last straw.
On June 26, the Supreme Court ordered his arrest, according to documents provided by the attorney general's office. On the morning of June 28 -- the day the referendum was to take place -- masked soldiers escorted Zelaya at gunpoint onto an airplane in his pajamas and flew him to Costa Rica.
In addition, Zelaya's chief of staff, Enrique Flores Lanza, is accused of abuse of power and misuse of public funds for withdrawing about $2.2 million in cash from the Central Bank on June 24.
Urtecho said there may be more charges in the pipeline. "We have received reports about government contracts that violated the law," he said. "But all the documentation we needed has been in the hands of the government officials who vacated their offices on June 28."
This is exactly what I am talking about when I said I have not seen a news report detailing his crimes.
This is an analysis article, not a news report.
Do you really not know the difference?
"Any legal woes for Zelaya stem from a single issue: his aggressive pursuit of a national referendum that he hoped would allow him to rewrite the constitution."
All the reports I have seen said he was looking to have a constitutional congress or committee amend the constitution.
This analysis says that "he" would "rewrite the constitution".
Either every report I have seen is wrong, or this analysis is extremely biased.
I don't know where you got this but let me tell you about news reporting.
News reports are filed by reporters who either witness, or use first person sources to report events.
Reporters are identified either by name, or by their the name of their wire service.
Sources are identified.
Opinions and analysis are kept to a minimum.
When you get a sentence like; "That was the last straw." you know you are not looking at good news reporting.
Your article identifies "legal Experts". We do not know if these experts are Honduran, have been to law school, or are members of the new government.
An other
An other source is the mysterious Urtecho.
This is a legit source: "according to documents provided by the attorney general's office".
Listen, you believe that Zelaya=Chaves=Castro, thus he should have been ousted.
That's your opinion and you are welcomed to it.
Stop with the bullshit articles.
Says the 20% accurate Oracle.
I'm not writing these articles.
Deal.
That Oracle thing really upset you.
The Oracle was 50% accurate.
I think it upsets you because he got your provider right.
Ummm....you were wrong on all counts.....even guessing two providers.
I think it was ridiculous...like most of your posts.
What really upsets me is that I have to spend good money on drugs to get as fucked up as you appear naturally.