It's not about cheating, it's about what you're in it for.
Beatmatching manually is half the fun of DJing.
WRONG! Getting paid megabucks, pouring Goose down my throat straight from the bottle while getting brained by some wasted skank underneath the decks is half the fun of DJing.
And... uh... dancing and waving your hands is the other half.
I think the key w/ cdj's is it can loop, trigger, etc much faster than doing it in Microwave. You are touching your cdj, versus moving away from your turntable and touching the keyboard.
It is also much less visual for the audience. Let's face it, it's just not fun watching someone tap on a keyboard.
Karizma does a lot of triggering w/ the "cue" button on the cdj. Punching in the beat repeatedly in different measures.
Zabiela does a lot of combinations w/ his efx1000 and the cdj. I might not be into the music he dj's much but he is pretty much the master at milking everything possible out of that combo. Check him out on youtube.
It's not about cheating, it's about what you're in it for.
Beatmatching manually is half the fun of DJing.
WRONG! Getting paid megabucks, pouring Goose down my throat straight from the bottle while getting brained by some wasted skank underneath the decks is half the fun of DJing.
I think the key w/ cdj's is it can loop, trigger, etc much faster than doing it in Microwave. You are touching your cdj, versus moving away from your turntable and touching the keyboard.
It is also much less visual for the audience. Let's face it, it's just not fun watching someone tap on a keyboard.
Karizma does a lot of triggering w/ the "cue" button on the cdj. Punching in the beat repeatedly in different measures.
Zabiela does a lot of combinations w/ his efx1000 and the cdj. I might not be into the music he dj's much but he is pretty much the master at milking everything possible out of that combo. Check him out on youtube.
this is for "electronic" music, not hiphop.
Yeah, I know Karizma's shit. It's dope. He implements that trick well, but believe it or not you can do more with s.erato. I have one of these, that I use with my set up. I keep it just to the right of my TT and in front of my EFX500 which is level with the TT. I can do Karizma's cue tricks (maybe not as good) and I can rearrange the entire track with cue point mapped via midi to the pads. It gives a show and it flips people the eff out when they hear it. I also have autoloop triggers set on one of the banks. I think the same tricks can be done with both sets of tech, IMO.
I checked Zebiela's stuff on Youtube, its neat, but I know how I can do the same exact thing in ser.ato with an EFX500. Check out Klever's stuff. He pulls similar tricks.
s.erato should have it as an option. if you didn't have to cue up bpm matching, there would be some crazy on-the-fly mixing capabilities, like instantly dropping acappellas or loops without spending the time to make sure they fit.
"i still don't know why beatmatching is much of a skill"
I forget, do you DJ?
Beatmatching isn't the easiest of skills to master, especially if you're NOT spinning house/techno. I'm not saying it's rocket-science but I've certainly run into enough situations where DJs have flubbed their mixes (myself most certainly included) that it's clear that beatmatching may be a basic skill (as in something everyone should know how to do) but it isn't something that isn't always that simple. If it were, why would you even need something like Automixing to do it for you?
whether you think beatmatching is difficult or not, its not something anyone would characterize as creative or artful. however, there are other aspects of djing that are. so if cutting back the time it takes you to do something that i analogized to adding up numbers on a piece of paper (also a skill), opens more doors for creativity, i'd call that a technological advancement....not cheating, especially if all djs have access to the same tools.
perhaps you see a dj spinning vinyl and say he's keeping it real...i say, what a fool or you look poor ;-), now have fun carrying those crates back to your car.
Why don't you stick with what you know about and leave DJing to people that do it.
It's ridic. and I'm buzzed so I should just bow out now. Really though, it's like me going into whatever 'Ambulance Chasers R Us' dude is working at and telling him how to do his job. It's comical.
Where is the fun in any of this? Part of DJing is that YOU MIGHT F*ck UP! That makes it engaging for both the DJ and the crowd. You might as well hook up an iPod or play a pre-recorded mix the way dude is talking. Rig up a mannequin with some ropes and pretend he's DJing.
I'm by no means anti-technology but I've got much more love for others that know the history of dj'ing and respect its traditions. However you wanna rock a crowd, do it, but you should at least have a solid foundation in the classic-ish.
If you can't be bothered to fusk with 2 turntables, a mixer, and a crate of records, that is mad
Imagine if you paid top dollar to see, for example, The Fooeys play a stadium gig. And you get there and there are 3 chairs on stage and a cd player and a mic plugged into the PA. Grohl just walks on and puts the latest album in and hits play and says, we don't even have to play.
Imagine if you paid top dollar to see, for example, The Fooeys play a stadium gig. And you get there and there are 3 chairs on stage and a cd player and a mic plugged into the PA. Grohl just walks on and puts the latest album in and hits play and says, we don't even have to play.
Same thing.
No.
The Phooeys are the original artists. they created the music using instruments, thus you would expect to see them perform their songs using said instrument
I agree with many of you and with keithvanhorn, i mean, the idea that all people are going to dj with vinyl and turntables is ridiculous. Fortunate for some and unfortunate for others the age has come when djing is far more accessible for people to "do" than prior years. What this means of course is that with wider interest in doing it and easy skill comes a more selective audience. The selection won't be in what technology the dj is rockin' whether it's turntables and records or ableton live, but what they are playing...and how it makes them feel. I mean, sure i think most people would rather see a dude pull out rare disco albums from his bag and play them rather than trigger them off his computer and blend them live. Can someone clear up how s.erato is all that much different than what one does with Ableton Live with a few exceptions: Certainly the appearance of having turntables, but most Microwave djs i have seen, "play" Mp3s off their computer with the program. Of course you have the capability of beat-juggling, scratching and doing all that than someone one with just a laptop, but the functions on s.erato, unless i'm wrong, indicates the BPM of each song...so everything is immediately matched, of course to have them really matched the dj has to trigger the record at the right time so it falls on beat and then blend it. So is it really coming down to the DJ with serat,o releases the record that is already matched according to serat,o???s BPM indicator than the Ableton Live dj who clicks play on a song that he had beat matched prior - there are some ableton Live djs who beat match on the spot and then blend.
As far as Djing goes I've been a scratch nerd for a long time - although i don't scratch as much as i use to, i've recently started playing cosmic disco/boogie tunes with two friends who are fairly well known in my area. I've felt a little strange having two laptops on stage and "mixing" and blending live...so I've decided that a turntable will be employed along with some external pedals so i can scratch certain samples (flutes, horns ect) live and add to the songs that may help to accentuate the vibe. Eventually I'll purchase another turntable (my other one was stolen) and be the all record dj in the group.
btw - does "s.e.r.a.t.o" change into Microwave on soulstrut? wtf
The worst thing is that all these muthafuckas is getting gigs and i'm still struggling to get gigs and i can F*ck 'em all up with my two turntables and strickley vinyl sets..I need to get my hustle on..
Imagine if you paid top dollar to see, for example, The Fooeys play a stadium gig. And you get there and there are 3 chairs on stage and a cd player and a mic plugged into the PA. Grohl just walks on and puts the latest album in and hits play and says, we don't even have to play.
Same thing.
No.
The Phooeys are the original artists. they created the music using instruments, thus you would expect to see them perform their songs using said instrument
I suppose yes, you could expect a performance. But, by the same token, you go to a club and expect the DJ to do some work - not just press play on a mix he'd done before, or even downloaded from someone else. THERE IS NO SKILL IN THAT. If they club knew this was happening, they should question what exactly they are paying the DJ for (I assume perhaps DJ may contribute also by bringing his/her "Disciples" along for dranks, and add "Shine" to the venue by gracing it with their "Presence" (Celeb-DJ-R) )
whether you think beatmatching is difficult or not, its not something anyone would characterize as creative or artful. however, there are other aspects of djing that are. so if cutting back the time it takes you to do something that i analogized to adding up numbers on a piece of paper (also a skill), opens more doors for creativity, i'd call that a technological advancement....not cheating, especially if all djs have access to the same tools.
perhaps you see a dj spinning vinyl and say he's keeping it real...i say, what a fool or you look poor ;-), now have fun carrying those crates back to your car.
So what you're saying is that you're not a DJ. Ok, cool.
no, i'm a lawyer, but i've also been a working club dj since i've been in my teens, so i think i'm qualified to give my opinion on the subject.
Microwave users have to admit though it does make things a lot easier beatmatching wise...I mean you have a visual representation of the music...so you can see the waveform and where the downbeats are and how they line up with whatever you're playing, that makes beat matching A LOT easier...however, the key aspect still relies solely on your ears...and THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of DJing still relies solely on the ears...the quality of the music being played...perfectly beatmatched terds are of no use to anyone...
i still don't know why beatmatching is much of a skill (is riding a bike?), unless your talking about matching non-quantized beats on the fly, even then, its just something that comes with experience, not like djs are sitting at home trying to memorize the slightly off beat drumming patterns of every record.
i'd be excited to see how some talented djs take their sets to another level with an auto bpm matching function. also, i think its obvious that djing capabilities only get better with added technology. the original post is some angry caveman nonsense.
if you dont know why beat matching is such a skill then your lost. your analogy of riding a bike...hmmm your training wheels are still on i guess. take them off and let me laugh while you bust your ass.
bullshit as far as djs not memorizing the spots on records where you CANT transition due to some change in tempo or drum fills etc. technology has allowed those of us with skills, to only do it better. at the same time its brought about every asshole that thinks djing is something you do for 2 years while mom and dad pay for you to go to college.
as far as your comment on this post being caveman nonsense, your the guy the posted south rakkas crew doing absolutely nothing in front of a computer. and you want to give him props for it, thank god your not on some committee. thats nonsense. with the aid of such programs...who cant do that ?
the jeru song in the south rakkas crew video...you know, come clean, the line where jeru says "bring your skills to the battle". loop that line and listen til it beats you in your thick head. what the F*ck happened to the artform, and whered the skills go ?
take away the computers, and all that shit...lets see the men get seperated from the boys.
since i havent been lurking about on here in a few days, im off to read the rest of the 3 pages this "caveman nonsense" turned into.
The core of this debate doesn't even require passionate defenses on either side.
Any community holds its own standards of - call it whatever you want: authenticity? Those standards may not be transparent or even understandable to those outside of that community.
To the LISTENER, how a musical set comes out at the club probably doesn't matter. Someone could be playing a pre-recorded multi-track MP3 for all they know but if they can get their groove on to it, it's all good.
But we're not talking about listeners. We're talking about DJs. And KVH aside, most DJs I know would find it pathetic if someone who calls themselves a DJ doesn't know how to mix records without the aid of a computer.
PERIOD. It's that simple.
To use KVH's analogy...if I'm a mathematician and I'm at a mathematician convention and I find someone who can do all kinds of complex equations using a calculator...but can't do long division by hand?
They're not a mathematician. At least not one I can respect.
This thread - to me - isn't about technology vs. anti-technology. I don't know very many serious DJs who reject the utility of something like S.erato. But those are tools that extend on the skills they already have. They are not tools that REPLACE those skills or better said, they're not tools that negate the need to learn those skills.
If I'm not mistaken, that was RH's original point.
And KVH: I'm not mad, doggie. It's just that you sound like a real dick to DJs who should deign to care about their craft. You don't have to agree with them; no one's insisting on universal compliance. But that "poor vs. fool" thing - even as a joke - suggests that you have little respect for anyone else in the community of DJs you supposedly belong to.
To use KVH's analogy...if I'm a mathematician and I'm at a mathematician convention and I find someone who can do all kinds of complex equations using a calculator...but can't do long division by hand?
They're not a mathematician. At least not one I can respect.
This thread - to me - isn't about technology vs. anti-technology. I don't know very many serious DJs who reject the utility of something like S.erato. But those are tools that extend on the skills they already have. They are not tools that REPLACE those skills or better said, they're not tools that negate the need to learn those skills.
KVH brings oppressive mediocrity to this site, day in day out. Playing mp3s gleaned from RHKTD at happy hour is about the most RR thing he can relate to, hence his enthusiasm for this thread.
And KVH: I'm not mad, doggie. It's just that you sound like a real dick to DJs who should deign to care about their craft. You don't have to agree with them; no one's insisting on universal compliance. But that "poor vs. fool" thing - even as a joke - suggests that you have little respect for anyone else in the community of DJs you supposedly belong to.
for someone who consistently tries to be the calm voice in the room, you seem to make a lot of personal attacks. i've made one point here - that i'm not mad at auto bpming because i think it opens up doors for skilled djs to show more creativity. i wasn't referring to house djs, but hip-hop/scratch djs, however, the richie hawtin (sp?) video seems to cosign my sentiment.
yea, the joke i made about carrying crates was...a joke. i did it for 8 years before s.erato. and i'm not a dj, i'm a lawyer, but i will bet a Grand right now that i have dj'd more club gigs than you, made more money at it, and have more technical skills than you . pick a category. i'll put the money up on an escrow site and let a neutral person make the call.
seriously dude, get off my dick. i don't make personal attacks on anyone here, nor do i try to call people out (although i guess i just did for the first time). if someone has a legal question, i might try to offer some advice (for free), but its a little presumptuous to say i'm not a dj just because i don't talk about it.
i'm not mad at auto bpming because i think it opens up doors for skilled djs to show more creativity. i wasn't referring to house djs, but hip-hop/scratch djs, however, the richie hawtin (sp?) video seems to cosign my sentiment.
How would auto beat matching help you be more creative?
its a little presumptuous to say i'm not a dj just because i don't talk about it.
Nah, it's what you DID say that made us think that. I don't know any DJ who would ever say that shit about "beatmatching takes no skill" etc.
Wow, talk about playing yourself. I'll leave it at that.
By the way: I didn't assume you weren't a DJ b/c you didn't talk about it. I assumed you weren't a DJ because you seem to have so little respect for the idea that DJs should care about DJing. As noted, you don't have to agree with the standards of "what makes a DJ." but I would think, as a former DJ, you'd understand that such conventions exist and hold meaning to other people who consider themselves DJs.
Comments
WRONG! Getting paid megabucks, pouring Goose down my throat straight from the bottle while getting brained by some wasted skank underneath the decks is half the fun of DJing.
And... uh... dancing and waving your hands is the other half.
It is also much less visual for the audience. Let's face it, it's just not fun watching someone tap on a keyboard.
Karizma does a lot of triggering w/ the "cue" button on the cdj. Punching in the beat repeatedly in different measures.
Zabiela does a lot of combinations w/ his efx1000 and the cdj. I might not be into the music he dj's much but he is pretty much the master at milking everything possible out of that combo. Check him out on youtube.
this is for "electronic" music, not hiphop.
I'm missing out on half of DJing then
Yeah, I know Karizma's shit. It's dope. He implements that trick well, but believe it or not you can do more with s.erato. I have one of these, that I use with my set up. I keep it just to the right of my TT and in front of my EFX500 which is level with the TT. I can do Karizma's cue tricks (maybe not as good) and I can rearrange the entire track with cue point mapped via midi to the pads. It gives a show and it flips people the eff out when they hear it. I also have autoloop triggers set on one of the banks. I think the same tricks can be done with both sets of tech, IMO.
I checked Zebiela's stuff on Youtube, its neat, but I know how I can do the same exact thing in ser.ato with an EFX500. Check out Klever's stuff. He pulls similar tricks.
F*ck that and F*ck chump ass DJs. [/Primo]
Why don't you stick with what you know about and leave DJing to people that do it.
How far are we gonna go?
Folks just got to to remember, that there are no songs out there dedicated to automated DJs. yall feel me?
If you can't be bothered to fusk with 2 turntables, a mixer, and a crate of records, that is mad
Same thing.
No.
The Phooeys are the original artists. they created the music using instruments, thus you would expect to see them perform their songs using said instrument
As far as Djing goes I've been a scratch nerd for a long time - although i don't scratch as much as i use to, i've recently started playing cosmic disco/boogie tunes with two friends who are fairly well known in my area. I've felt a little strange having two laptops on stage and "mixing" and blending live...so I've decided that a turntable will be employed along with some external pedals so i can scratch certain samples (flutes, horns ect) live and add to the songs that may help to accentuate the vibe. Eventually I'll purchase another turntable (my other one was stolen) and be the all record dj in the group.
btw - does "s.e.r.a.t.o" change into Microwave on soulstrut? wtf
I suppose yes, you could expect a performance. But, by the same token, you go to a club and expect the DJ to do some work - not just press play on a mix he'd done before, or even downloaded from someone else. THERE IS NO SKILL IN THAT. If they club knew this was happening, they should question what exactly they are paying the DJ for (I assume perhaps DJ may contribute also by bringing his/her "Disciples" along for dranks, and add "Shine" to the venue by gracing it with their "Presence" (Celeb-DJ-R) )
no, i'm a lawyer, but i've also been a working club dj since i've been in my teens, so i think i'm qualified to give my opinion on the subject.
Any community holds its own standards of - call it whatever you want: authenticity? Those standards may not be transparent or even understandable to those outside of that community.
To the LISTENER, how a musical set comes out at the club probably doesn't matter. Someone could be playing a pre-recorded multi-track MP3 for all they know but if they can get their groove on to it, it's all good.
But we're not talking about listeners. We're talking about DJs. And KVH aside, most DJs I know would find it pathetic if someone who calls themselves a DJ doesn't know how to mix records without the aid of a computer.
PERIOD. It's that simple.
To use KVH's analogy...if I'm a mathematician and I'm at a mathematician convention and I find someone who can do all kinds of complex equations using a calculator...but can't do long division by hand?
They're not a mathematician. At least not one I can respect.
This thread - to me - isn't about technology vs. anti-technology. I don't know very many serious DJs who reject the utility of something like S.erato. But those are tools that extend on the skills they already have. They are not tools that REPLACE those skills or better said, they're not tools that negate the need to learn those skills.
If I'm not mistaken, that was RH's original point.
And KVH: I'm not mad, doggie. It's just that you sound like a real dick to DJs who should deign to care about their craft. You don't have to agree with them; no one's insisting on universal compliance. But that "poor vs. fool" thing - even as a joke - suggests that you have little respect for anyone else in the community of DJs you supposedly belong to.
well put.
for someone who consistently tries to be the calm voice in the room, you seem to make a lot of personal attacks. i've made one point here - that i'm not mad at auto bpming because i think it opens up doors for skilled djs to show more creativity. i wasn't referring to house djs, but hip-hop/scratch djs, however, the richie hawtin (sp?) video seems to cosign my sentiment.
yea, the joke i made about carrying crates was...a joke. i did it for 8 years before s.erato. and i'm not a dj, i'm a lawyer, but i will bet a Grand right now that i have dj'd more club gigs than you, made more money at it, and have more technical skills than you . pick a category. i'll put the money up on an escrow site and let a neutral person make the call.
seriously dude, get off my dick. i don't make personal attacks on anyone here, nor do i try to call people out (although i guess i just did for the first time). if someone has a legal question, i might try to offer some advice (for free), but its a little presumptuous to say i'm not a dj just because i don't talk about it.
How would auto beat matching help you be more creative?
Nah, it's what you DID say that made us think that. I don't know any DJ who would ever say that shit about "beatmatching takes no skill" etc.
By the way: I didn't assume you weren't a DJ b/c you didn't talk about it. I assumed you weren't a DJ because you seem to have so little respect for the idea that DJs should care about DJing. As noted, you don't have to agree with the standards of "what makes a DJ." but I would think, as a former DJ, you'd understand that such conventions exist and hold meaning to other people who consider themselves DJs.