Everyone I have seen use virtual dj has horrible taste in music. It is something like venga boys to jock jams to jump around house mix.
If you were mixing straight minimal techno or long disco cuts I can see it working nicely, but to me the mark of a quality dj comes from how they handle transitions, eqing, effects, powerdowns, backspins all things that virtual dj will not do. Might as well use itunes with the 12 second crossfade playback setting. Then you could sound like a northern soul dj.
virtual dj mixes FOR YOU. it will not allow for the files to go offbeat. thats cheating. sorry. got it ?
That is serious cheating. But the same old arguments will get dusted off:
"The crowd doesn't care, so why should you?"
"Adopt the new technology or get left in the dust!"
"It's the music that counts, not what you use to play it!"
And so on.
all of those arguments apply to s.erato, but again it doesnt mix for you. im not overestimating what this program does, i saw it in front of me. if you are off it corrects it. its basically a trainwreck proof system removing the human element. its just sad when somebody is booked who has been "djing" for a month comes in , sets up a playlist and the computer perfectly puts it together for you.
for me this isnt about the medium from which you play. this is basically robots taking over. you dont need to know anything about mixing or setting cue points or learning about song structure or knowing your records or any of that.
for the most part a dj gets booked for his or her taste. its a plus if they are well rounded and have some technical skill....and imo a good dj knows every inch of the records they drop, being able to exit at any given moment..the records should not control you.
THis thread made me curious enough to actually download a copy of Virtual DJ and put its Automix function to the test.
It is - to an extent - what RH is referring to - it will digitally analyze two songs, and to the best of its algorhythmic ability - figure out how to "mix" the two together.
It is NOT, I repeat NOT, "trainwreck proof." If you use Automix to force a mix between two songs of wildly different tempos or musical feel, it will digitally artifact the f--- out of the mix and sound like a vocoder being tortured to death.
However, if you go in and plot your cue points and show some elementary level knowledge of what songs "go well" with one another, then Automix can literally do the mixing for you. In other words, it has the cue points memorized, it will do all the beat matching for you and you can tell it, ahead of time, what kind of transition you want (slow fade, fast cut).
What I find hilarious were some of the built-in features that are included, such as the "backspin" button which will digitally backspin your song for you (rewind selecta!).
THis thread made me curious enough to actually download a copy of Virtual DJ and put its Automix function to the test.
It is - to an extent - what RH is referring to - it will digitally analyze two songs, and to the best of its algorhythmic ability - figure out how to "mix" the two together.
It is NOT, I repeat NOT, "trainwreck proof." If you use Automix to force a mix between two songs of wildly different tempos or musical feel, it will digitally artifact the f--- out of the mix and sound like a vocoder being tortured to death.
trainwreck proof meaning, not taking a song thats 125 bpm and forcing it with one thats 98 bpm, correct?
from what i saw it was doing it for songs that were 115- 118...in that case it seemed to do what i was saying.
Everyone I have seen use virtual dj has horrible taste in music. It is something like venga boys to jock jams to jump around house mix.
I think the reason why is b/c VDJ works best with music that's heavily quantized and easily mixed (in terms of relatively "clean" tracks that can be easily mixed with others). I can't imagine VDJ being able to automix non-disco funk records with any competence and it'd be tough to use with many hip-hop songs without the actual DJ knowing when/how to play with EQs.
THis thread made me curious enough to actually download a copy of Virtual DJ and put its Automix function to the test.
It is - to an extent - what RH is referring to - it will digitally analyze two songs, and to the best of its algorhythmic ability - figure out how to "mix" the two together.
It is NOT, I repeat NOT, "trainwreck proof." If you use Automix to force a mix between two songs of wildly different tempos or musical feel, it will digitally artifact the f--- out of the mix and sound like a vocoder being tortured to death.
trainwreck proof meaning, not taking a song thats 125 bpm and forcing it with one thats 98 bpm, correct?
from what i saw it was doing it for songs that were 115- 118...in that case it seemed to do what i was saying.
Oh, no doubt. If you line up the right songs on a playlist, VDJ will do all the work for you. I was simply suggesting there are limits to its magic but if you're doing a 30 minute house set? Yeah, you can go on a piss break for a while without a worry.
ok, this is for the original poster. this dude is using virtual dj and what looks like a $50 mixer. there isn't anything too complicated going on here, but if i heard this set at a club i'd walk over to the dj and tell him he was doing his thing. could care less if the beats are pre-matched.
I wouldn't go as far as that. See this is an example of someone not understanding how to DJ properly. It's annoying for me to have someone continuously mixing from one song to the next without letting the individual songs breathe. Mixing in the middle of a rapper's rapping is a no-no. And all those excessive effects and playing around with the snare personally annoys the hell out of me.
i think this is more for demonstration purposes. s.erato should take some notes. i think the fx cues right on the laptop are huge, plus the fact that the technology exists to make instant bpm matching, means that s.erato should have it as an option. if you didn't have to cue up bpm matching, there would be some crazy on-the-fly mixing capabilities, like instantly dropping acappellas or loops without spending the time to make sure they fit.
You haven't lived until you've watched a 120lb white boy rock a live breakcore set using a Wii controller. It's part mosh, part orchestra conductor, part epileptic fit. Dunno if it beat matches for you... this was a breakcore set so the bpms were around 300 in 11/16 time or something.
ok, this is for the original poster. this dude is using virtual dj and what looks like a $50 mixer. there isn't anything too complicated going on here, but if i heard this set at a club i'd walk over to the dj and tell him he was doing his thing. could care less if the beats are pre-matched.
I'm more tickled that Fugees + Jeru = "old school."
s.erato should take some notes. i think the fx cues right on the laptop are huge, plus the fact that the technology exists to make instant bpm matching, means that s.erato should have it as an option.
I wouldn't be surprised if they built both in - the FX/built-in sampler features were rumored to be in the most current beta build. I wouldn't be mad at that - makes total sense to have the ability to do drops on the fly.
Auto-mixing is probably coming down the line at some point though I think that'd be harder to program. Especially for internal mode DJs, there's not a reason NOT to do it. I don't think it'd make as much sense for those using control vinyl however and right now, S.erato mostly exists for the latter crowd, not the former.
As for your whole "if i heard this set at a club i'd walk over to the dj and tell him he was doing his thing" - I think that's a positive attitude but this whole thread is about the kind of values and ethics that DJs hold dear and that is often quite different from an audience p.o.v. The argument that "it's all about the end result" is only one of several ways to evaluate.
I think for many DJs, your ability to mix in the tradition of mixing is important, end-product be damned. Every generation goes through this - I'm sure when multi-tracking mixes became affordable and accessible, a lot of DJs called bullshit on that b/c, for them, mixing doing it live. Maybe we're on the cusp of another paradigm-shift, where actual mixing skills are not longer that valued compared to your programming skills (this video reminded me a lot of those MPC videos of producers making up beats on the fly). What you're demonstrating is a particular kind of skill - I don't think just anyone could put together a set like that dude in the video - but whether it's a skill you actually care about can't be assumed.
Yo, I love the South Rakkas Crew. They've made some of my favorite riddims in recent/recurrent dancehall. But seriously, for some software that autoblends shit for you, there was some off points in this video. I think even with software that cheats, you still need to be a decent dj with good ears first.
Still, Bionic Ras riddim? super hot shit. I still rotate that shit every once in a while.
B/W
When SRC was djing at SXSW in 2008, their VDJ setup crashed.
s.erato should take some notes. i think the fx cues right on the laptop are huge, plus the fact that the technology exists to make instant bpm matching, means that s.erato should have it as an option.
I wouldn't be surprised if they built both in - the FX/built-in sampler features were rumored to be in the most current beta build. I wouldn't be mad at that - makes total sense to have the ability to do drops on the fly.
Auto-mixing is probably coming down the line at some point though I think that'd be harder to program. Especially for internal mode DJs, there's not a reason NOT to do it. I don't think it'd make as much sense for those using control vinyl however and right now, S.erato mostly exists for the latter crowd, not the former.
As for your whole "if i heard this set at a club i'd walk over to the dj and tell him he was doing his thing" - I think that's a positive attitude but this whole thread is about the kind of values and ethics that DJs hold dear and that is often quite different from an audience p.o.v. The argument that "it's all about the end result" is only one of several ways to evaluate.
I think for many DJs, your ability to mix in the tradition of mixing is important, end-product be damned. Every generation goes through this - I'm sure when multi-tracking mixes became affordable and accessible, a lot of DJs called bullshit on that b/c, for them, mixing doing it live. Maybe we're on the cusp of another paradigm-shift, where actual mixing skills are not longer that valued compared to your programming skills (this video reminded me a lot of those MPC videos of producers making up beats on the fly). What you're demonstrating is a particular kind of skill - I don't think just anyone could put together a set like that dude in the video - but whether it's a skill you actually care about can't be assumed.
See turntablism, for example.
Microwave created Itch (which does automix) to compete against the Traktors and VDJ's. They've stated that Scratch Live will never automix.
And I think the EFX version of Scratch Live will be the upcoming Ableton collab software...
Other than that, this post pretty much sums it up.
Auto-mixing is probably coming down the line at some point though I think that'd be harder to program. Especially for internal mode DJs, there's not a reason NOT to do it. I don't think it'd make as much sense for those using control vinyl however and right now, S.erato mostly exists for the latter crowd, not the former.
until they come out with a jog wheel that better simulates vinyl, i could see using control records on relative mode with auto beatmatching just for scratching and backspins. so basically, the pitch on the turntables would become irrelevant, but the coded vinyl would still be relevant.
What you're demonstrating is a particular kind of skill - I don't think just anyone could put together a set like that dude in the video - but whether it's a skill you actually care about can't be assumed.
See turntablism, for example.
i still don't know why beatmatching is much of a skill (is riding a bike?), unless your talking about matching non-quantized beats on the fly, even then, its just something that comes with experience, not like djs are sitting at home trying to memorize the slightly off beat drumming patterns of every record.
i'd be excited to see how some talented djs take their sets to another level with an auto bpm matching function. also, i think its obvious that djing capabilities only get better with added technology. the original post is some angry caveman nonsense.
"i still don't know why beatmatching is much of a skill"
I forget, do you DJ?
Beatmatching isn't the easiest of skills to master, especially if you're NOT spinning house/techno. I'm not saying it's rocket-science but I've certainly run into enough situations where DJs have flubbed their mixes (myself most certainly included) that it's clear that beatmatching may be a basic skill (as in something everyone should know how to do) but it isn't something that isn't always that simple. If it were, why would you even need something like Automixing to do it for you?
"i still don't know why beatmatching is much of a skill"
I forget, do you DJ?
Beatmatching isn't the easiest of skills to master, especially if you're NOT spinning house/techno. I'm not saying it's rocket-science but I've certainly run into enough situations where DJs have flubbed their mixes (myself most certainly included) that it's clear that beatmatching may be a basic skill (as in something everyone should know how to do) but it isn't something that isn't always that simple. If it were, why would you even need something like Automixing to do it for you?
whether you think beatmatching is difficult or not, its not something anyone would characterize as creative or artful. however, there are other aspects of djing that are. so if cutting back the time it takes you to do something that i analogized to adding up numbers on a piece of paper (also a skill), opens more doors for creativity, i'd call that a technological advancement....not cheating, especially if all djs have access to the same tools.
perhaps you see a dj spinning vinyl and say he's keeping it real...i say, what a fool or you look poor ;-), now have fun carrying those crates back to your car.
its not something anyone would characterize as creative or artful.
I disagree.
I've seen and stolen some VERY creative beatmatching, ie., matching beats on a song that is playing in reverse, handspinning with a dead motor up or down to match the bpm of an incoming or outgoing song, halfing and doubletiming bpms, mixing different time signatures (popular in Broken Beat), etc...
hawtin's setup is pretty elaborate, I can appreciate his approach even if he isn't mixing. He does put a lot of work into it....
What about the merits of cdj dj'ing vs Microwave vinyl control? There are a lot of really talented cdj dj's out there that are doing things nobody can do on vinyl.
What about the merits of cdj dj'ing vs Microwave vinyl control? There are a lot of really talented cdj dj's out there that are doing things nobody can do on vinyl.
ie. James Zabiela, Karizma, etc....
Not familiar with Zabiela, but Karizma is sick!!! But I haven't seen anything that can't be done with s.erato & efx500 and a lot of preparation. Dj Klever does some of the same things.
This has been the best thread on here for a minute.
perhaps you see a dj spinning vinyl and say he's keeping it real...i say, what a fool or you look poor ;-), now have fun carrying those crates back to your car.
That's cool. Let me know when your done "ripping" your records on to your iMac Johnny Mnemonic and I'll take all those heavy and inconvenient records off your hands.
B/W
Get your skirt out of the way, Mary and pick up your crates.
"i still don't know why beatmatching is much of a skill"
I forget, do you DJ?
Beatmatching isn't the easiest of skills to master, especially if you're NOT spinning house/techno. I'm not saying it's rocket-science but I've certainly run into enough situations where DJs have flubbed their mixes (myself most certainly included) that it's clear that beatmatching may be a basic skill (as in something everyone should know how to do) but it isn't something that isn't always that simple. If it were, why would you even need something like Automixing to do it for you?
whether you think beatmatching is difficult or not, its not something anyone would characterize as creative or artful. however, there are other aspects of djing that are. so if cutting back the time it takes you to do something that i analogized to adding up numbers on a piece of paper (also a skill), opens more doors for creativity, i'd call that a technological advancement....not cheating, especially if all djs have access to the same tools.
perhaps you see a dj spinning vinyl and say he's keeping it real...i say, what a fool or you look poor ;-), now have fun carrying those crates back to your car.
So what you're saying is that you're not a DJ. Ok, cool.
Comments
If you were mixing straight minimal techno or long disco cuts I can see it working nicely, but to me the mark of a quality dj comes from how they handle transitions, eqing, effects, powerdowns, backspins all things that virtual dj will not do. Might as well use itunes with the 12 second crossfade playback setting. Then you could sound like a northern soul dj.
all of those arguments apply to s.erato, but again it doesnt mix for you. im not overestimating what this program does, i saw it in front of me. if you are off it corrects it. its basically a trainwreck proof system removing the human element. its just sad when somebody is booked who has been "djing" for a month comes in , sets up a playlist and the computer perfectly puts it together for you.
for me this isnt about the medium from which you play. this is basically robots taking over. you dont need to know anything about mixing or setting cue points or learning about song structure or knowing your records or any of that.
for the most part a dj gets booked for his or her taste. its a plus if they are well rounded and have some technical skill....and imo a good dj knows every inch of the records they drop, being able to exit at any given moment..the records should not control you.
anyway, rant over....F*ck that program.
the force is with you= real djs.
b/w
movies that suck you in every time.
It is - to an extent - what RH is referring to - it will digitally analyze two songs, and to the best of its algorhythmic ability - figure out how to "mix" the two together.
It is NOT, I repeat NOT, "trainwreck proof." If you use Automix to force a mix between two songs of wildly different tempos or musical feel, it will digitally artifact the f--- out of the mix and sound like a vocoder being tortured to death.
However, if you go in and plot your cue points and show some elementary level knowledge of what songs "go well" with one another, then Automix can literally do the mixing for you. In other words, it has the cue points memorized, it will do all the beat matching for you and you can tell it, ahead of time, what kind of transition you want (slow fade, fast cut).
What I find hilarious were some of the built-in features that are included, such as the "backspin" button which will digitally backspin your song for you (rewind selecta!).
think I saw Amir in that clip.
trainwreck proof meaning, not taking a song thats 125 bpm and forcing it with one thats 98 bpm, correct?
from what i saw it was doing it for songs that were 115- 118...in that case it seemed to do what i was saying.
I think the reason why is b/c VDJ works best with music that's heavily quantized and easily mixed (in terms of relatively "clean" tracks that can be easily mixed with others). I can't imagine VDJ being able to automix non-disco funk records with any competence and it'd be tough to use with many hip-hop songs without the actual DJ knowing when/how to play with EQs.
Oh, no doubt. If you line up the right songs on a playlist, VDJ will do all the work for you. I was simply suggesting there are limits to its magic but if you're doing a 30 minute house set? Yeah, you can go on a piss break for a while without a worry.
Worth the price of admission just for that alone! Or to get a drink, sort our sound issues, etc...
Admission price being waiting for the torrent to finish, that is..
I'm more tickled that Fugees + Jeru = "old school."
I wouldn't be surprised if they built both in - the FX/built-in sampler features were rumored to be in the most current beta build. I wouldn't be mad at that - makes total sense to have the ability to do drops on the fly.
Auto-mixing is probably coming down the line at some point though I think that'd be harder to program. Especially for internal mode DJs, there's not a reason NOT to do it. I don't think it'd make as much sense for those using control vinyl however and right now, S.erato mostly exists for the latter crowd, not the former.
As for your whole "if i heard this set at a club i'd walk over to the dj and tell him he was doing his thing" - I think that's a positive attitude but this whole thread is about the kind of values and ethics that DJs hold dear and that is often quite different from an audience p.o.v. The argument that "it's all about the end result" is only one of several ways to evaluate.
I think for many DJs, your ability to mix in the tradition of mixing is important, end-product be damned. Every generation goes through this - I'm sure when multi-tracking mixes became affordable and accessible, a lot of DJs called bullshit on that b/c, for them, mixing doing it live. Maybe we're on the cusp of another paradigm-shift, where actual mixing skills are not longer that valued compared to your programming skills (this video reminded me a lot of those MPC videos of producers making up beats on the fly). What you're demonstrating is a particular kind of skill - I don't think just anyone could put together a set like that dude in the video - but whether it's a skill you actually care about can't be assumed.
See turntablism, for example.
Yo, I love the South Rakkas Crew. They've made some of my favorite riddims in recent/recurrent dancehall. But seriously, for some software that autoblends shit for you, there was some off points in this video. I think even with software that cheats, you still need to be a decent dj with good ears first.
Still, Bionic Ras riddim? super hot shit. I still rotate that shit every once in a while.
B/W
When SRC was djing at SXSW in 2008, their VDJ setup crashed.
Microwave created Itch (which does automix) to compete against the Traktors and VDJ's. They've stated that Scratch Live will never automix.
And I think the EFX version of Scratch Live will be the upcoming Ableton collab software...
Other than that, this post pretty much sums it up.
until they come out with a jog wheel that better simulates vinyl, i could see using control records on relative mode with auto beatmatching just for scratching and backspins. so basically, the pitch on the turntables would become irrelevant, but the coded vinyl would still be relevant.
i still don't know why beatmatching is much of a skill (is riding a bike?), unless your talking about matching non-quantized beats on the fly, even then, its just something that comes with experience, not like djs are sitting at home trying to memorize the slightly off beat drumming patterns of every record.
i'd be excited to see how some talented djs take their sets to another level with an auto bpm matching function. also, i think its obvious that djing capabilities only get better with added technology. the original post is some angry caveman nonsense.
I forget, do you DJ?
Beatmatching isn't the easiest of skills to master, especially if you're NOT spinning house/techno. I'm not saying it's rocket-science but I've certainly run into enough situations where DJs have flubbed their mixes (myself most certainly included) that it's clear that beatmatching may be a basic skill (as in something everyone should know how to do) but it isn't something that isn't always that simple. If it were, why would you even need something like Automixing to do it for you?
Beatmatching manually is half the fun of DJing. I can???t see myself ever giving that up for the automated laptop experience.
Richie Hawtin and Sasha no longer manually mix anything. They use short loops and effects to remix and produce live in Traktor in 4 decks.
I don't cosign that, but it's out there if you wanna see people taking automixing to the "next level".
whether you think beatmatching is difficult or not, its not something anyone would characterize as creative or artful. however, there are other aspects of djing that are. so if cutting back the time it takes you to do something that i analogized to adding up numbers on a piece of paper (also a skill), opens more doors for creativity, i'd call that a technological advancement....not cheating, especially if all djs have access to the same tools.
perhaps you see a dj spinning vinyl and say he's keeping it real...i say, what a fool or you look poor ;-), now have fun carrying those crates back to your car.
I disagree.
I've seen and stolen some VERY creative beatmatching, ie., matching beats on a song that is playing in reverse, handspinning with a dead motor up or down to match the bpm of an incoming or outgoing song, halfing and doubletiming bpms, mixing different time signatures (popular in Broken Beat), etc...
What about the merits of cdj dj'ing vs Microwave vinyl control? There are a lot of really talented cdj dj's out there that are doing things nobody can do on vinyl.
ie. James Zabiela, Karizma, etc....
Not familiar with Zabiela, but Karizma is sick!!! But I haven't seen anything that can't be done with s.erato & efx500 and a lot of preparation. Dj Klever does some of the same things.
Gimme some examples.
That's cool. Let me know when your done "ripping" your records on to your iMac Johnny Mnemonic and I'll take all those heavy and inconvenient records off your hands.
B/W
Get your skirt out of the way, Mary and pick up your crates.
So what you're saying is that you're not a DJ. Ok, cool.