a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed Sorry, I can't support this type of action.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
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b, 21
b, 21Well, I'm no anarchist but that's a pretty skewed definition of anarchism. From the very same source (dictionary.com, I presume) you could choose the first definition of anarchist:
b, 21
b, 211.
a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.b, 21b, 21with anarchy defined as one of the following:b, 21b, 211. a state of society without government or law. b, 212. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy. b, 213. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society. b, 214. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.b, 21b, 21The few people that I know who identify themselves as "anarchist" (one of whom helped start the first permanent street based medical facility in New Orleans after Katrina) would never advocate the use of violence to achieve their aims, and would tend to support definition 3 above. b, 21b, 21Anarchism is not the act of breaking down a system in and of itself. And it is a system of order, despite what the definition you cited claims. A worker-owned cooperative business is considered a small example of anarchism. Co-ops are not created through violence and they do represent a system of order ... just one that reflects cooperation rather than coercion.b, 21b, 21However, that's all for the philosophy books. Worker co-ops tend to be comprised of maybe 10 workers, tops (with a few notable exceptions, such as King Arthur Flour). I can't see how anyone could envision anarchism actually working for large populations. Even if a nation of people decided to Go Anarchist!!!!!, at best you'd end up with a sort of participatory democracy. And the time it would take to make decisions would likely prompt a switch to representative democracy. I worked in a food co-op. Just deciding whether or not to sell meat took months. Nations cannot be run that way. Even Mondragon, a huge worker-owned co-operative organization in the Basque region of Spain, has reverted to top down decision making to get things done in a highly competitive world economy. b, 21b, 21Well ... it's lunch time. Maybe I'll go smash the snack machine. b, 21b, 21h, 21
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b, 21
b, 21Semantics...
b, 21
b, 21C & P from Dictionary.com
b, 21ANARCHIST
b, 211. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.
b, 212. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.
b, 213. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Merely semantics? One definition claims that violence is a necessary aspect of anarchism and that an anarchist merely seeks to overturn a society or government without setting up anything in its place. A separate definition of anarchy, from the very same source, describes the "cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society" with no mention of violence. b, 21b, 21Those are two wildly different ideas and demonstrate that dictionary.com is perhaps not the best place to turn for an understanding of anarchism. To be clear, I'm an archivist, not an anarchist. I just hate seeing the term used to describe what these rioters are doing because, even if they use the word themselves, their actions represent chaos, not anarchism (despite what the overlords at dictionary.com might claim).
a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed Sorry, I can't support this type of action.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
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b, 21
b, 21Well, I'm no anarchist but that's a pretty skewed definition of anarchism. From the very same source (dictionary.com, I presume) you could choose the first definition of anarchist:
b, 21
b, 211.
a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.b, 21b, 21with anarchy defined as one of the following:b, 21b, 211. a state of society without government or law. b, 212. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy. b, 213. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society. b, 214. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.b, 21b, 21The few people that I know who identify themselves as "anarchist" (one of whom helped start the first permanent street based medical facility in New Orleans after Katrina) would never advocate the use of violence to achieve their aims, and would tend to support definition 3 above. b, 21b, 21Anarchism is not the act of breaking down a system in and of itself. And it is a system of order, despite what the definition you cited claims. A worker-owned cooperative business is considered a small example of anarchism. Co-ops are not created through violence and they do represent a system of order ... just one that reflects cooperation rather than coercion.b, 21b, 21However, that's all for the philosophy books. Worker co-ops tend to be comprised of maybe 10 workers, tops (with a few notable exceptions, such as King Arthur Flour). I can't see how anyone could envision anarchism actually working for large populations. Even if a nation of people decided to Go Anarchist!!!!!, at best you'd end up with a sort of participatory democracy. And the time it would take to make decisions would likely prompt a switch to representative democracy. I worked in a food co-op. Just deciding whether or not to sell meat took months. Nations cannot be run that way. Even Mondragon, a huge worker-owned co-operative organization in the Basque region of Spain, has reverted to top down decision making to get things done in a highly competitive world economy. b, 21b, 21Well ... it's lunch time. Maybe I'll go smash the snack machine. b, 21b, 21h, 21
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b, 21
b, 21Semantics...
b, 21
b, 21C & P from Dictionary.com
b, 21ANARCHIST
b, 211. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.
b, 212. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.
b, 213. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
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b, 21
b, 21
Merely semantics? One definition claims that violence is a necessary aspect of anarchism and that an anarchist merely seeks to overturn a society or government without setting up anything in its place. A separate definition of anarchy, from the very same source, describes the "cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society" with no mention of violence. b, 21b, 21Those are two wildly different ideas and demonstrate that dictionary.com is perhaps not the best place to turn for an understanding of anarchism. To be clear, I'm an archivist, not an anarchist. I just hate seeing the term used to describe what these rioters are doing because, even if they use the word themselves, their actions represent chaos, not anarchism (despite what the overlords at dictionary.com might claim). b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21You can choose whichever definition you like but the fact that the folks in Greece call themselves anarchists and are using violence kinda fits the definition I used.
b, 21I believe popular resistance is the only effective course of action. This could be in the form of a peaceful protest, organized tax resistance, or targeted property destruction. I don't believe that there is any one correct tactic, and I applaud all forms of popular dissent that target the source of their grievances. I draw the line at tactics that seek to kill or seriously harm people. These should only be used in self defense.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
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b, 21
b, 21So when racists in the U.S. start burning down businesses because they have a "grievance" with having a black man as their President you will support their "dissent"?
b, 21
b, 21Or do you get to pick and choose which groups get to use these tactics?
b, 21
b, 21And if there was truly a "popular" dissent, as in the majority of the citizens, voting is the way to address your grievance.
b, 21
b, 21And I'm sure if your home or business was firebombed you would have no problem accepting it as "popular dissent".
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I get to pick and choose what I think is moral and worth fighting for.b, 21b, 21There is unrest because most of the people think the government is broken. I'm guessing elections will follow, but first the current government needs to be taken out.
b, 21Do you think the fact that the American left-wing has no real teeth could be part of the reason you had to deal with 8 years of a Bush regime? What that did to your economy? To your Country?
b, 21Why right-wing spokesmen/media/politicians are allowed to run riot, whilst when Barrack says something that has a mere whiff of actual left-wing thinking, he gets labelled a Commie and Un-American.
b, 21
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
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b, 21
b, 21I think you may be mixing up cause and effect. The reason why Bush got elected was because the majority of the people that voted wanted what Bush offered, and it established a power structure that supported the diminution of leftist ideals. And the toothy leftist people that didn't vote didn't care, or didn't want to take part. Thus, apathy was a big part of the reason that Bush assumed office. To say that the American left has no real teeth is not really an accurate statement. The fact that Obama got elected should speak to this inaccuracy. I think what we are experiencing is a shift from a regime in which a lot of toothy people got lazy and didn't use their teeth, into a regime where people are being reminded of the fact that they do in fact have teeth.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21b, 21I'm not really 'mixing up' cause and effect, they don't exist independently. b, 21b, 21America has a long history of being anti lefty, which seems to still be pretty strong. Even though Soulstrut is full of liberal, left leaning peoples, most of you seem pretty centre ground and, while I wouldn't personally align myself with the extremes of either wing, I know plenty who do, annoying as some of them may be, I feel they are a crucial part of a strong, balanced democracy. b, 21Obviously this is a very European way of seeing things. Here in the UK our traditionally left-wing party has repositioned itself firmly in the centre ground, but luckily we don't have a strong right-wing party either, as they've positioned themselves in the centre also. None of which makes for a healthy democracy, effects of this could be felt in the fact that the (leftwing) British gov. were so willing to follow the US into Iraq. Even though such a thing goes against their traditional values.b, 21But in the US you have a centre ground left-wing party, and a pretty far-out, right-wing party, which seems unbalanced. It was that way years before Bush, and this imbalance does seem to have precipitated some the nastier episodes in American political history.b, 21b, 21(Good overuse of the tooth analogy though img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21
b, 21As far as "migrants" go, let me get this straight. These folks migrated to Greece under their own free will, didn't like what was going on there once they arrived and turned to rioting, burning down buildings and destroying the property of greek citizens in retaliation....GTFOOHWTBS.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Most of the immgrants in Greece are refugees from war torn regions, Iraq, Afganistan, Somalia, Pakistan. Reports are that they are treated awful by the Greek state and police. Just a month ago a Pakistani immigrant called Mohammed Ashraf was murdered by riot police in Athens when the police dispersed the crowd of immigrants waiting to apply for a green card.
I join with Moke in lamenting the relatively anemic strand of leftist politics that has operated in america throughout it's history. Imagine if this hadnt been the case, we could be just like greece!b, 21b, 21Unfortunately, due largely to the unenlightened bent of our politics, we must make do with being the richest and most powerful country on earth and having eurodudes mad at us about it.(bulgarians dont like us. We so sad!) b, 21b, 21img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerbang.gif" alt="" 21*b, 21b, 21*most patriotic smilie I could find.
b, 21I join with Moke in lamenting the relatively anemic strand of leftist politics that has operated in america throughout it's history. Imagine if this hadnt been the case, we could be just like greece!
b, 21
b, 21Unfortunately, due largely to the unenlightened bent of our politics, we must make do with being the richest and most powerful country on earth and having eurodudes mad at us about it.(bulgarians dont like us. We so sad!)
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21It's a real shame Communist China now own your ass.
b, 21I join with Moke in lamenting the relatively anemic strand of leftist politics that has operated in america throughout it's history. Imagine if this hadnt been the case, we could be just like greece!
b, 21
b, 21Unfortunately, due largely to the unenlightened bent of our politics, we must make do with being the richest and most powerful country on earth and having eurodudes mad at us about it.(bulgarians dont like us. We so sad!)
b, 21IUnfortunately, due largely to the unenlightened bent of our politics, we must make do with being the richest and most powerful country on earth and having eurodudes mad at us about it.
b, 21
b, 21
h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Dude, your country has only a short time left in pole position. Make the most of it.
Fools and arseholes like Dolo are one big reason for the world's dislike of America.b, 21b, 21It takes just one prick like him to drown out the goodness of a hundred cool folks.b, 21b, 21Shame on any dude who lines up behind him for patriotic reasons.
A heavy chain binds the iron gates of the philosophy faculty of the university of Athens, the city where the notions of philosophy and of university were invented in the shadow of the Acropolis. But this does not mean that the building is empty, or that there is not effervescent discourse in progress; quite the reverse, the place is teeming with people and ideas. It has been - as have thousands of colleges, schools, city halls, offices and every other kind of building across Greece - occupied. Put under occupation by, in this case, the students. So that the walls, inside and out, like every wall in Athens, are lined with the slogans of the insurrection which propelled the most tumultuous and prolonged riots in a European city since 1968, after the killing by police of a 15-year-old, Alexis Grigoropoulos, as he chatted with friends on a street corner on 6 December 2008.
Many of the axioms are reminiscent of 1968, blending humour and mischief: "Merry Crisis and a happy New Fear" and "Kill the cop inside you". Others are merely enraged: "Fascist state, you are deaf - the gallows await you!" Others are relevant to the moment: "Billions for the banks, bullets for the children." And one dismisses that era of revolt by their parents: "May '68 is dead. Fight Now!"
Inside what is properly known as the Faculty of Philosophy, Psychology, Pedagogy, Music and Mathematics, students discuss the origins of the uprising, and its causes. They talk first about the "precarity" of their lives, and the fact that in Greece a quarter of those aged between 17 and 25 are unemployed. One student, Alexis, explains how for two years they have been occupying campuses all over Greece in protest against the government giving formal university status to private colleges (many of which have franchising agreements with British universities). Another student, Chariklia, says, "Half of all women who leave high school are out of work. What is the future for them and what does that say to the school kids who came on to the streets with us?" They talk about short-term contracts, "outsourcing", work without security or representation, of the impossibility of finding a good job unless connected in a client system of patronage and who-you-know. Then the conversation becomes more general. "Society has the face of freedom and choice," says Angeliki. "But that is all it is, a facade. This bad job or that bad job, this rubbish on television or that rubbish on television, this product or that product. We are rebelling against that false choice." Time after time, students and activists pleaded with us not to make cliched references to Ancient Greece, but then a girl named Yianna said: "Don't forget that in Greek myth, chaos was not disorder, it was a vacant space awaiting occupation. Chaos was the space into which the silver egg was laid which hatched Eros." We laughed, because now that cliched reference is unavoidable, and a hint of the complexity and intelligence behind the chaos of December's uprising, and the aftermath it has unleashed, is out in the open.
Much has been written about the ferocity of the attacks on shops, the destruction of property and its cost to the Greek economy and image (Athens has been less affected by criminal violence than any other capital in Europe). And more will be written in retrospect as it becomes clear that the uprising is not against anything that is uniquely Greek, but against postmodern society and a system of globalised capitalism. There were riots in support of the Greeks outside the country's embassies as far away as Brazil, and as rioting now spreads to Bulgaria, Latvia, Iceland and Russia, the Greek uprising has been called "the first credit-crunch riot". They are certainly the first riots against the "cult of greed" about which we hear so much these days. But, it emerges, they are also about much more than that.
In Greece, the insurgents have been given a collective name, the koukouloforoi - the hooded ones, because they hide their faces with balaclavas, gas masks, crash helmets and Palestinian keffiyehs to conceal their identity, but also as protection against the regular soakings with tear gas. But what if the violence of the koukouloforoi is not "mindless", as Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis put it, but mindful? What if their contempt for society, politicians and consumerism has a lexicon that is not just revolutionary dogma? And, as the authorities in Bulgaria, Iceland and Latvia failed to ask before the riots came their way, and Britain has so far failed to ask: what if it happens here?
Detailed evidence has emerged of Israel's extensive use of US-made weaponry during its war in Gaza last month, including white phosphorus artillery shells, 500lb bombs and Hellfire missiles.
In a report released today, Amnesty International listed the weapons used and called for an immediate arms embargo on Israel and all Palestinian armed groups. It called on the US president, Barack Obama, to suspend military aid to Israel.
Amnesty said it also found evidence of a new type of missile, apparently fired from unmanned drones, which exploded into many pieces of shrapnel that were "tiny sharp-edged metal cubes, each between 2 and 4mm square in size".
"They appear designed to cause maximum injury," Amnesty said. Many civilians were killed by this weapon, including several children, it said.[/b]
"We Greeks, we invented Democracy!" "Yeah, you also invented homos!"
And then we invented homophobia!
I didnt know the pic didnt show up!...my quote seems a bit odd without it, i was merely quoting "Ghost World" and had a pic of the hesher that says that...
Comments
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/22/civil-unrest-athens
A heavy chain binds the iron gates of the philosophy faculty of the university of Athens, the city where the notions of philosophy and of university were invented in the shadow of the Acropolis. But this does not mean that the building is empty, or that there is not effervescent discourse in progress; quite the reverse, the place is teeming with people and ideas. It has been - as have thousands of colleges, schools, city halls, offices and every other kind of building across Greece - occupied. Put under occupation by, in this case, the students. So that the walls, inside and out, like every wall in Athens, are lined with the slogans of the insurrection which propelled the most tumultuous and prolonged riots in a European city since 1968, after the killing by police of a 15-year-old, Alexis Grigoropoulos, as he chatted with friends on a street corner on 6 December 2008.
Many of the axioms are reminiscent of 1968, blending humour and mischief: "Merry Crisis and a happy New Fear" and "Kill the cop inside you". Others are merely enraged: "Fascist state, you are deaf - the gallows await you!" Others are relevant to the moment: "Billions for the banks, bullets for the children." And one dismisses that era of revolt by their parents: "May '68 is dead. Fight Now!"
Inside what is properly known as the Faculty of Philosophy, Psychology, Pedagogy, Music and Mathematics, students discuss the origins of the uprising, and its causes. They talk first about the "precarity" of their lives, and the fact that in Greece a quarter of those aged between 17 and 25 are unemployed. One student, Alexis, explains how for two years they have been occupying campuses all over Greece in protest against the government giving formal university status to private colleges (many of which have franchising agreements with British universities). Another student, Chariklia, says, "Half of all women who leave high school are out of work. What is the future for them and what does that say to the school kids who came on to the streets with us?" They talk about short-term contracts, "outsourcing", work without security or representation, of the impossibility of finding a good job unless connected in a client system of patronage and who-you-know. Then the conversation becomes more general. "Society has the face of freedom and choice," says Angeliki. "But that is all it is, a facade. This bad job or that bad job, this rubbish on television or that rubbish on television, this product or that product. We are rebelling against that false choice." Time after time, students and activists pleaded with us not to make cliched references to Ancient Greece, but then a girl named Yianna said: "Don't forget that in Greek myth, chaos was not disorder, it was a vacant space awaiting occupation. Chaos was the space into which the silver egg was laid which hatched Eros." We laughed, because now that cliched reference is unavoidable, and a hint of the complexity and intelligence behind the chaos of December's uprising, and the aftermath it has unleashed, is out in the open.
Much has been written about the ferocity of the attacks on shops, the destruction of property and its cost to the Greek economy and image (Athens has been less affected by criminal violence than any other capital in Europe). And more will be written in retrospect as it becomes clear that the uprising is not against anything that is uniquely Greek, but against postmodern society and a system of globalised capitalism. There were riots in support of the Greeks outside the country's embassies as far away as Brazil, and as rioting now spreads to Bulgaria, Latvia, Iceland and Russia, the Greek uprising has been called "the first credit-crunch riot". They are certainly the first riots against the "cult of greed" about which we hear so much these days. But, it emerges, they are also about much more than that.
In Greece, the insurgents have been given a collective name, the koukouloforoi - the hooded ones, because they hide their faces with balaclavas, gas masks, crash helmets and Palestinian keffiyehs to conceal their identity, but also as protection against the regular soakings with tear gas. But what if the violence of the koukouloforoi is not "mindless", as Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis put it, but mindful? What if their contempt for society, politicians and consumerism has a lexicon that is not just revolutionary dogma? And, as the authorities in Bulgaria, Iceland and Latvia failed to ask before the riots came their way, and Britain has so far failed to ask: what if it happens here?
Read the rest here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/22/civil-unrest-athens
But only because I'm a pig.
"Yeah, you also invented homos!"
And then we invented homophobia!
I didnt know the pic didnt show up!...my quote seems a bit odd without it, i was merely quoting "Ghost World" and had a pic of the hesher that says that...
-J Live