b, 21I'm not trying to discount the "massive frustration", but thousands of anarchists can assemble in this country and bash Starbucks windows and it's not a big thing. Why all this bla bla bla?
b, 21
b, 21The strike is indeed crippling, but I fail to understand how we should somehow take a great lesson (let alone be ashamed or inspired) by these events.
b, 21
b, 21For 8 years,
hundreds of thousands of protesters gathered in protest of our corrupt government... sometimes resorting to violence. b, 21b, 21In the end, we elected a Black, Liberal President. Whether this will change things drastically is up in the air... but I have a hard time taking seriously these cats who want to claim moral superiority because they've gathered up some college students who throw bricks through windows. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Exactlyb, 21b, 21The folks behind these riots are avowed and proud anarchists.....not just against the current government, but against any/all government and laws period.b, 21b, 21As has happened in the past, they are using a tragic event to promote their chaos.b, 21b, 21Empathy for citizens who have legit issues with a government is expected.b, 21b, 21Empathy for violent, destructive anarchists is ignorant.b, 21b, 21Especially in a country that has had a democratic election within the last 14 months.b, 21b, 21And someone please explain why more "Migrants" have been arrested than Greeks??
b, 21(Owned by the hardcore anarchist radical Rupert Murdoch)
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b, 21why are you promoting Rupert Murdoch's capitalist enterprise dude? clearly you need to read up on your read-ups; I got a great graphic novel on the life of Abimael Guzm??n if you're interested (awesome pictures!); check your PMs.
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b, 21Jesus, would you shut the F*ck up already? You're sounding painfully ignorant.
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b, 21Of course LokoOne isn't the most eloquent guy and his support for violent protests is a bit much, but you haven't demonstrated any knowledge of what's going on over there. At least he understands the massive frustration felt by the citizens of Greece. You, on the other hand, seem completely content to push aside the fully legitimate frustrations of students and professors -- and citizens in general -- with the sweep of your hand. Again, painfully ignorant.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21doggie, this is especially rich coming from your excitable little self. you've proven time and again with your posts that you bring nothing to the table when it comes to these conversations. b, 21b, 21nowhere have I said anyhing about "push[ing] aside the fully legitimate frustrations of students and professors" or whatever other nonsense you're accusing me of. that may be going on in your head, but it happens to have nothing to do with what I have written in this thread.
b, 21I'm not trying to discount the "massive frustration", but thousands of anarchists can assemble in this country and bash Starbucks windows and it's not a big thing. Why all this bla bla bla?
The English version of the German "spiegel.de" says this:b, 21 b, 21b, 21b, 21WAVE OF VIOLENCEb, 21Riots Throw Greece into Deep Democratic Crisisb, 21b, 21By J??rg Diehl in Athensb, 21b, 21There's violence on the streets and distrust is growing: b1The serious riots are merely the visible manifestation a far deeper loss of faith in the government. Many normal Greeks share the same views as the Black Bloc anarchists: They consider the country's elite to be corrupt and incompetent.[/b]b, 21b, 21b, 21It's 1:30 p.m., and a strange scene is playing out in front of the National Library in Athens. It's a telling moment -- one that says a lot about why thousands of hooligans have managed to terrorize public life in Greece's largest city for days now -- and why neither the police nor concerned residents have been able to stop them.b, 21b, 21A blonde-haired woman in her mid-thirties stands amidst the thick fog of tear gas and wafts of smoke rising from a few burning trash bags. She's wearing a pant suit and carries folders under her arms. She's talking to a young Black Bloc protester wearing a Quicksilver sweatshirt of the same color, Adidas tennis shoes and a Nike backpack. He's got stones in his hands.b, 21b, 21The two seem enthusiastic as they chat to each other, smiling and cracking jokes. Perhaps they're related. At the same time, the mates of a rioter standing next to him are busy ripping apart the sidewalk. The woman says goodbye, kissing both of his cheeks, before gracefully tottering away. Then one of the rioters turns around, picks up a large rock and throws it down into the street where the police are standing.b, 21b, 21It's the daily dose of anarchy in Athens, that entered into its fifth day on Wednesday.b, 21b, 21b1The Greek riots are a textbook example of how deep a country can sink if it lacks democracy's most important element, the support and acceptance of its people.[/b] The scales of democracy have tipped here, and one inevitably gets the impression these days that there are few left who still trust the government to find the right path. Their experiences with its scandals, cronyism and corruption are too deeply seated. And it is in their unanimous rejection of the elite that both business people and the Black Bloc anarchists have found common ground.b, 21b, 21"I love my country," says Theo, a 62-year-old, white-haired man who lived for years in Germany as an immigrant worker, "but I hate its politics." He says he has never regarded the Greek government as more corrupt, scheming and dirty-handed than it is today. "Something finally needs to change, otherwise this place is going to go to the dogs," curses Theo, a shoe salesman and socialist.b, 21b, 21'We Want a Different Country'b, 21b, 21Around the same time, another man who calls himself Christo (though he almost certainly has a different real name) is standing behind the protective barrier at the Polytechnic University, where the rebels have found refuge. He's thrown a scarf over his face, but his brown eyes dart back and forth to the point you can't tell if he's on drugs or just bleary-eyed and high on a rush from street fighting with the police.b, 21b, 21"We want a different country and another society. That's why we are fighting and I am prepared to give my life for it," the 23-year-old says, with high drama before beating his hands on his chest in a grand, Tarzan-like gesture. He won't say how he expects to achieve those aims by lobbing stones at police and Molotov cocktails at luxury sedans.b, 21b, 21Indeed, one of the problems with this Greek tragedy is that there are no indications of when it might end. The Black Bloc can't win -- their aims are illusory at best, assuming anyone even takes them seriously -- and their resources are limited.b, 21b, 21Many of the several thousand hooligans who continued marauding through the streets of Athens Wednesday seem to have little more than an irrepressible thirst for the comparably serious, but still relatively non-dangerous slugfest with the cops. They hurl stones at police and when the security officials storm towards them, they simply retreat. It's tantamount to testosterone-driven men in their early twenties playing a game of tag.b, 21b, 21But the police haven't been able to succeed in putting a stop to the riots themselves. Police officers are patrolling large swathes of the city, but only in small units -- and they appear to be trying to compensate for their short-handedness with swift action. They throw tear gas grenades and they storm the protestors, but they make few arrests. The actions are largely ineffective and they seem to do more to escalate the conflict than to curtail it.b, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21"They should finally protect us," rails the owner of a mobile phone store whose storefront was smashed. "How long is this supposed to go on? It's an unacceptable situation." Christiana, 43, says she has nothing against the protests, far from it, but urges the rioters not to place the burden on small-time shopkeepers. "I can't afford this," she says.b, 21b, 21How much longer the riots will last is still an open question. Christos, the stone thrower and prospective engineer, is sure that they'll die down in the next few days. A policeman, who imagined himself for a moment to be unobserved by his colleagues, says ambiguously: "I hope that the end is near." Meanwhile, shoe seller Theo sounds off: "Tomorrow it will be over."b, 21b, 21Victim Reportedly Hit by Ricocheting Bulletsb, 21b, 21Perhaps the momentary cease-fire owes something to the news that Alexandros Grigoropoulos, the school boy who was killed on Saturday by police fire, was evidently hit by a ricocheting bullet. "It was an accident," said the lawyer for the accused police officer Epaminondas Korkoneas. Similar reports also came from justice officials.b, 21b, 21b, 21Before the projectile struck Alexandros, it apparently bounced off something else. The case does not involve a targeted deadly shooting, as the protesters have insinuated, according to reports. The results from a ballistic analysis, however, have not yet been released.b, 21b, 21b1Officer Korkoneas, apparently called "Rambo" by his colleagues[/b], has stated that he fired three warning shots, and that one of these ricocheted and hit the victim. The 37-year-old now hopes to be prosecuted not for manslaughter or murder, but only for negligent homicide. So far, his 31-year-old colleague has only been accused of being an accessory to manslaughter.b, 21b, 21At noon on the streets, though, the calls were "Pigs, swines, murders!"
b, 21nowhere have I said anyhing about "push[ing] aside the fully legitimate frustrations of students and professors" or whatever other nonsense you're accusing me of. that may be going on in your head, but it happens to have nothing to do with what I have written in this thread.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Predictably, I knew you'd claim this, DOGGIE. Nowhere have you expressed any empathy towards the people of Greece, either.b, 21b, 21/font1
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b, 21oh, the
teachers are protesting, too?!?! damn well why didn't you say so?!b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21This coming after LokoOne's ineloquent attempt to tell you that all sorts of people were involved in protests both peaceful and violent -- I'll bet the professors were in the violent protests. Nevertheless, you'll probably try to spin that quote as showing empathy towards the professors, though, so there's no use quoting you.b, 21b, 21You seem to have trouble separating the students and professors who are peacefully protesting from the rioters. You should probably stop conflating the two if you'd like to continue this conversation because, like I said, you're looking painfully ignorant -- and now stupider with each post (never stopped you before).
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21LOL mr f*cking clairvoyant over here. how on earth could you have guessed I'd claim not to have said something you accused me of saying..but which I didn't say? you must be a cotdamn genius.b, 21b, 21b, 21/font1
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b, 21you'll probably try to spin that quote as showing empathy towards the professors, though, so there's no use quoting you.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21uh no I won't. I will, however, ask you what the fusk it is you keep babbling about. students, professors...huh? b, 21b, 21I was responding to Loko's endorsement of targeting US-owned companies in response to Greek cops killing kids.b, 21b, 21/font1
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b, 21You seem to have trouble separating the students and professors who are peacefully protesting from the rioters.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21see above, i.e. uhhh....what the fusk do you keep talking about?
b, 21I'm not trying to discount the "massive frustration", but thousands of anarchists can assemble in this country and bash Starbucks windows and it's not a big thing. Why all this bla bla bla?
b, 21
b, 21The strike is indeed crippling, but I fail to understand how we should somehow take a great lesson (let alone be ashamed or inspired) by these events.
b, 21
b, 21For 8 years,
hundreds of thousands of protesters gathered in protest of our corrupt government... sometimes resorting to violence. b, 21b, 21In the end, we elected a Black, Liberal President. Whether this will change things drastically is up in the air... but I have a hard time taking seriously these cats who want to claim moral superiority because they've gathered up some college students who throw bricks through windows. b, 21b, 21h, 21
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b, 21Exactly
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b, 21The folks behind these riots are avowed and proud anarchists.....not just against the current government, but against any/all government and laws period.
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b, 21As has happened in the past, they are using a tragic event to promote their chaos.
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b, 21Empathy for citizens who have legit issues with a government is expected.
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b, 21Empathy for violent, destructive anarchists is ignorant.
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b, 21Especially in a country that has had a democratic election within the last 14 months.
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b, 21And someone please explain why more "Migrants" have been arrested than Greeks??
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21see this is my problem with you guys, not your difference of opinion, not the fact that you have a different perception and experience of things...but that you make claims without research/proof or facts and then attack everyone else who brings forth a view point that is different from you. You guys just make blind statements with an arrogant air that assumes that because YOU said it must be the truth and anyone that doesnt buy your bullshit you attack personally, rather than debate the merits of their claims....b, 21b, 21Firstlyb, 21"The folks behind these riots are avowed and proud anarchists.....not just against the current government, but against any/all government and laws period"...b, 21b, 21where did you get this info from? So every single person protesting (including ALL the teachers, students, nurses, workers AND opposition party members) are anarchist? 10,000 plus marched yesterday in ONE protest. they are all anarchist? did you go down and speak with all of them? do you have some of that great CIA intelligence? b, 21b, 21The folks behind the riot are everyday people...some may be anarchist, so may be capitalist for all you know. Its a mass movement as far as reports show, which means you would have all sorts of people, as i said to you before mate...go do some research and if you ever attended a mass protest you would see that the majority of ppl dont actually fit your stereotypes for them.b, 21b, 21"And someone please explain why more "Migrants" have been arrested than Greeks?? "b, 21b, 21Maybe their conditions are worse, as they are for many migrant workers in europe, but what is funny is in your previous post you alludfed to the 'migrants' being imported by the evil anarchist, thugs for hire, and now you are alluding to greek racism. What i see in this is the opposite, something positive...migrants and greeks fighting the same govt. whereas in the past alot of times the nationals will attack migrants out of frustration when the economy is shit (such as in Trukey, Holland, Spain and Austria in the past.... ) The fact that the fascist path has been avoided so far is a good sign that this protest is progressive.b, 21 And BTW just some history for you to ponder...everyone loves to talk about WW2 anmd Hitler and how the Allies defeated the eveils of facsim, when the first people to fight against fascim in europe where the ANARCHIST and SOCIALIST..... it took the rest of the world 10 years to join the fight... maybe history is repeating itself here....b, 21b, 21"Especially in a country that has had a democratic election within the last 14 months."b, 21b, 21yes true, but why dont you mention that the govt is holding power by ONE seat, and has acted like they have a mandate to pass free market policies? And also why dont you mention the fact the the SOCIALIST PARTY was until yesterday backing the govt to stop the protests.... oh wait a minute didnt you atttack ALL SOCIALIST in a previous post...and now the ANARCHIST are the boogie men.... or are you so ignorant that you think SOCIALIST/ANARCHIST/COMMUNIST/SYNDICALISTS are all the same thing? do you even understand the differences between the groups?b, 21b, 21b, 21"As has happened in the past, they are using a tragic event to promote their chaos"b, 21b, 21what past events? or are we suppose to just take your word as gospel. and also if you would have done some fact finding you would see that there were plans for a GENERAL STRIKE before the death of the teenager... matter of fact why were those teenagers protesting in the first place? And why has the protest spread across the country? Why are they attacking banks and not just cops? b, 21b, 21And how much power do these 'evil anarchist' have anyways? By your reckoning they control the whole country, they have an influence on a large portion of the population...how do they do this? do they force everyone out to protest at gun point? do they have a huge army of supporters? or could it be that their beliefs and frustrations are shared by a large portion of the population? So its either a small number of anarchist controlling everything, which would give them huge power and the people are just stupid pawns being used, or the people would have to support some or most of the principles and ideals of the anarchist to join them...according to your analysis..... which one is it?b, 21b, 21So do you believe anarchy always brought about by a small minority of violent lunatics who hijack the political will of stupid people and destroy everything they can out of ignorance and jelousy? Cus if thats so can you explain Argentina 2001? New Orleans after Katrina? Iraq after the invasion?
Damn are you thick!b, 21b, 21This is an easy thread for all to follow except for you, apparently:b, 21b, 211) Folks talk about how Greece is growing chaoticb, 212) One of the folks talks about how the rioters are targeting Ford and how he seems to like it (says some hilarious things along the way, too)b, 213) You pop off about how that's wrongb, 214) He attempts to explain to you that rioters are going after specific targets that they are discontent withb, 215) You reiterate that this is wrongb, 216) He attempts to explain how many of the people in Greece from all walks of life feel discontent with their governmentb, 217) You keep banging on about the rioters, unaware that he's no longer necessarily talking about violent rioters
b, 21This is an easy thread for all to follow except for you, apparently:
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b, 211) Folks talk about how Greece is growing chaotic
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b12) One of the folks talks about how the rioters are targeting Ford and how this is the "right" response to Greek cops offing a Greek kid.
b, 213) I pop off about how that's wrong
b, 214) He accuses me of owning Ford stock.
b, 215) He and you then start rambling about the difference between professors and students and syndicalists and anarchists and Noam Chomsky and blah blah blah
b, 216) Still, no one can explain how burning a Ford factory is the "right" response to Greek cops offing a Greek kid, or even what it has to do with Greek cops offing a Greek kid.
b, 217) Platitudes are uttered relating to "grievances" and "the government."
b, 218) Still, no one can explain how burning a Ford factory is the "right" response to Greek cops offing a Greek kid, or even what it has to do with Greek cops offing a Greek kid.
b, 219) Asses are shown, clowns revealed; a great time was had by all [/b]
b, 21I'm not trying to discount the "massive frustration", but thousands of anarchists can assemble in this country and bash Starbucks windows and it's not a big thing. Why all this bla bla bla?
b, 21
b, 21The strike is indeed crippling, but I fail to understand how we should somehow take a great lesson (let alone be ashamed or inspired) by these events.
b, 21
b, 21For 8 years,
hundreds of thousands of protesters gathered in protest of our corrupt government... sometimes resorting to violence. b, 21b, 21In the end, we elected a Black, Liberal President. Whether this will change things drastically is up in the air... but I have a hard time taking seriously these cats who want to claim moral superiority because they've gathered up some college students who throw bricks through windows. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Do you think the fact that the American left-wing has no real teeth could be part of the reason you had to deal with 8 years of a Bush regime? What that did to your economy? To your Country? b, 21Why right-wing spokesmen/media/politicians are allowed to run riot, whilst when Barrack says something that has a mere whiff of actual left-wing thinking, he gets labelled a Commie and Un-American. b, 21b, 21(I'm not trying to point fingers, or score points, I'm asking sincerely.)
b, 21see this is my problem with you guys, not your difference of opinion, not the fact that you have a different perception and experience of things...but that you make claims without research/proof or facts and then attack everyone else who brings forth a view point that is different from you. You guys just make blind statements with an arrogant air that assumes that because YOU said it must be the truth and anyone that doesnt buy your bullshit you attack personally, rather than debate the merits of their claims....
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font class="post"1b, 21I think the problem here is not distinguishing protestors/strikers from rioters. b, 21b, 21The protestors or "strikers" number in the 10,000's and I support 100% their right to peaceful protest. b, 21b, 21The rioters who are estimated to be in the 100's, who are burning buildings, destroying property, etc. are criminals and I don't support their "right" to commit crimes.b, 21b, 21Nor can anyone justify their crimes.b, 21b, 21Comparing Katrina to what's going on in Greece is absurd. Many "looters" in New Orleans were doing so as a means of survival, taking necessities from stores that basically gave them permission to do so. There was no firebombing, destruction of property, etc. like we're seeing in Greece. Sure there were some idiots who took big screen TV's etc.......we call them CRIMINALS.b, 21b, 21If you want to know about the history of what's going on in Greece just google the terrorist group "November 17" who bombed a bus full of riot police in retaliation of a similar shooting in 1985 and go back as far as 1973 with their acts of violence. These are the folks, along with misguided youth who are in the photos that Thermos posted, not teachers and blue collar workers.b, 21b, 21And the very definition of anarchist is a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed Sorry, I can't support this type of action.b, 21b, 21As far as "migrants" go, let me get this straight. These folks migrated to Greece under their own free will, didn't like what was going on there once they arrived and turned to rioting, burning down buildings and destroying the property of greek citizens in retaliation....GTFOOHWTBS.b, 21b, 21The people of Greece voted for the current administration in Sept. 07.....the way you inact change in a democratic society is with your vote, not with firebombs.b, 21b, 21The shooting of the 15 year old is a tragedy regardless of the circumstances.b, 21The policemen responsible have been arrested and will hopefully be brought to justice.b, 21b, 21These rioters should also be arrested and brought to justice, not lauded for their crimes.
b, 21Do you think the fact that the American left-wing has no real teeth could be part of the reason you had to deal with 8 years of a Bush regime? What that did to your economy? To your Country?
b, 21Why right-wing spokesmen/media/politicians are allowed to run riot, whilst when Barrack says something that has a mere whiff of actual left-wing thinking, he gets labelled a Commie and Un-American.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I think you may be mixing up cause and effect. The reason why Bush got elected was because the majority of the people that voted wanted what Bush offered, and it established a power structure that supported the diminution of leftist ideals. And the toothy leftist people that didn't vote didn't care, or didn't want to take part. Thus, apathy was a big part of the reason that Bush assumed office. To say that the American left has no real teeth is not really an accurate statement. The fact that Obama got elected should speak to this inaccuracy. I think what we are experiencing is a shift from a regime in which a lot of toothy people got lazy and didn't use their teeth, into a regime where people are being reminded of the fact that they do in fact have teeth.
I pretty much agree with the last two posts.b, 21b, 21I don't claim to know the top and bottom of what's going on in Greece... but those put well into words how I feel about our current political climate vis-a-vis the Greek riots.
b, 21The reason why Bush got elected was because the majority of the people that voted wanted what Bush offered.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Bush did not win the popular vote in 2000 and he won the electoral college in a cloud of shadiness. The reason that Bush got enough votes to get close enough was because he ran a better marketing campaign than Al Gore. He offered a bunch of promises that he never delivered on: smaller government, no foreign intervention, lowering taxes.b, 21b, 21 /font1
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b, 21The rioters who are estimated to be in the 100's, who are burning buildings, destroying property, etc. are criminals and I don't support their "right" to commit crimes.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21There are way more than hundreds of rioters. Try thousands.b, 21b, 21/font1
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b, 21The people of Greece voted for the current administration in Sept. 07.....the way you inact change in a democratic society is with your vote, not with firebombs.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21What the article posted above by Dojah points out is that the people vote but don't feel like they have any real choice:b, 21b, 21/font1
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b, 21The Greek riots are a textbook example of how deep a country can sink if it lacks democracy's most important element, the support and acceptance of its people. The scales of democracy have tipped here, and one inevitably gets the impression these days that there are few left who still trust the government to find the right path. Their experiences with its scandals, cronyism and corruption are too deeply seated. And it is in their unanimous rejection of the elite that both business people and the Black Bloc anarchists have found common ground.
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b, 21"I love my country," says Theo, a 62-year-old, white-haired man who lived for years in Germany as an immigrant worker, "but I hate its politics." He says he has never regarded the Greek government as more corrupt, scheming and dirty-handed than it is today. "Something finally needs to change, otherwise this place is going to go to the dogs," curses Theo, a shoe salesman and socialist.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Ideally, a Democracy is supposed to present real choices that represent the people, but I think we're all familiar with a world in which campaigns are ad campaigns full of smear tactics and vague platitudes. Whatever few concrete policy promises are rarely carried through, and even those promises are limited through the influence of major sources of power. If you get caught in a system in which this keeps on happening: what do you do?b, 21b, 21I believe popular resistance is the only effective course of action. This could be in the form of a peaceful protest, organized tax resistance, or targeted property destruction. I don't believe that there is any one correct tactic, and I applaud all forms of popular dissent that target the source of their grievances. I draw the line at tactics that seek to kill or seriously harm people. These should only be used in self defense.
b, 21Bush did not win the popular vote in 2000 and he won the electoral college in a cloud of shadiness. The reason that Bush got enough votes to get close enough was because he ran a better marketing campaign than Al Gore. He offered a bunch of promises that he never delivered on: smaller government, no foreign intervention, lowering taxes.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Regardless, he assumed office by virtue of the fact that those who would have articulated resistance did nothing. In my opinion Bush was the perfect president, he gave a great deal of the American public what they wanted. I just always think of the brilliant bit from Farenheit 911 (I hate Michael Moore) where Bush says something to the effect of, "We've got to fight terrorism...Now watch this drive," and then he hits a golf ball. He is the tail end of the turd that is a ruling class on its way out, brilliant in his impotence. He represents impudence and apathy.
b, 21He is the tail end of the turd that is a ruling class on its way out, brilliant in his impotence. He represents impudence and apathy.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21I hope to goodness that you're right, but I'm deeply cynical that Obama is going to be able to change the direction of this titanic.
Obama is a crucial element, but I think it has more to do with the people who elected him realizing that they run the country, and doing something about it with Obama providing proper guidance, and setting good examples.
a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed Sorry, I can't support this type of action.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Well, I'm no anarchist but that's a pretty skewed definition of anarchism. From the very same source (dictionary.com, I presume) you could choose the first definition of anarchist:b, 21b, 211. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.b, 21b, 21with anarchy defined as one of the following:b, 21b, 211. a state of society without government or law. b, 212. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy. b, 213. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society. b, 214. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.b, 21b, 21The few people that I know who identify themselves as "anarchist" (one of whom helped start the first permanent street based medical facility in New Orleans after Katrina) would never advocate the use of violence to achieve their aims, and would tend to support definition 3 above. b, 21b, 21Anarchism is not the act of breaking down a system in and of itself. And it is a system of order, despite what the definition you cited claims. A worker-owned cooperative business is considered a small example of anarchism. Co-ops are not created through violence and they do represent a system of order ... just one that reflects cooperation rather than coercion.b, 21b, 21However, that's all for the philosophy books. Worker co-ops tend to be comprised of maybe 10 workers, tops (with a few notable exceptions, such as King Arthur Flour). I can't see how anyone could envision anarchism actually working for large populations. Even if a nation of people decided to Go Anarchist!!!!!, at best you'd end up with a sort of participatory democracy. And the time it would take to make decisions would likely prompt a switch to representative democracy. I worked in a food co-op. Just deciding whether or not to sell meat took months. Nations cannot be run that way. Even Mondragon, a huge worker-owned co-operative organization in the Basque region of Spain, has reverted to top down decision making to get things done in a highly competitive world economy. b, 21b, 21Well ... it's lunch time. Maybe I'll go smash the snack machine.
b, 21The people of Greece voted for the current administration in Sept. 07.....the way you inact change in a democratic society is with your vote, not with firebombs.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21What the article posted above by Dojah points out is that the people vote but don't feel like they have any real choice:b, 21b, 21 b, 21b, 21h, 21font class="post"1b, 21b, 21The Greek Prime Minister race had 15 candidates all representing a different party....how many "real choices" do they want?b, 21b, 21Right now 5 of those parties hold seats in the Greek Parliment.b, 21b, 21New Democracy - 41b, 21Panhellenic Socialist Movement - 38b, 21Communist Party - 8b, 21Popular Orthodox - 4b, 21Ecologist Green - 1b, 21b, 21Maybe this is a testament as to why a two party system works best as their current Prime Minister only received 43% of the vote.b, 21b, 21One thing is for sure, there is no Anarchy Party to represent the anarchists.
a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed Sorry, I can't support this type of action.b, 21b, 21b, 21h, 21
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b, 21Well, I'm no anarchist but that's a pretty skewed definition of anarchism. From the very same source (dictionary.com, I presume) you could choose the first definition of anarchist:
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a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.b, 21b, 21with anarchy defined as one of the following:b, 21b, 211. a state of society without government or law. b, 212. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy. b, 213. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society. b, 214. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.b, 21b, 21The few people that I know who identify themselves as "anarchist" (one of whom helped start the first permanent street based medical facility in New Orleans after Katrina) would never advocate the use of violence to achieve their aims, and would tend to support definition 3 above. b, 21b, 21Anarchism is not the act of breaking down a system in and of itself. And it is a system of order, despite what the definition you cited claims. A worker-owned cooperative business is considered a small example of anarchism. Co-ops are not created through violence and they do represent a system of order ... just one that reflects cooperation rather than coercion.b, 21b, 21However, that's all for the philosophy books. Worker co-ops tend to be comprised of maybe 10 workers, tops (with a few notable exceptions, such as King Arthur Flour). I can't see how anyone could envision anarchism actually working for large populations. Even if a nation of people decided to Go Anarchist!!!!!, at best you'd end up with a sort of participatory democracy. And the time it would take to make decisions would likely prompt a switch to representative democracy. I worked in a food co-op. Just deciding whether or not to sell meat took months. Nations cannot be run that way. Even Mondragon, a huge worker-owned co-operative organization in the Basque region of Spain, has reverted to top down decision making to get things done in a highly competitive world economy. b, 21b, 21Well ... it's lunch time. Maybe I'll go smash the snack machine. b, 21b, 21h, 21
font class="post"1b, 21b, 21Semantics...b, 21b, 21C & P from Dictionary.comb, 21ANARCHISTb, 211. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism. b, 212. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed. b, 213. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.
b, 21I believe popular resistance is the only effective course of action. This could be in the form of a peaceful protest, organized tax resistance, or targeted property destruction. I don't believe that there is any one correct tactic, and I applaud all forms of popular dissent that target the source of their grievances. I draw the line at tactics that seek to kill or seriously harm people. These should only be used in self defense.
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font class="post"1b, 21b, 21So when racists in the U.S. start burning down businesses because they have a "grievance" with having a black man as their President you will support their "dissent"?b, 21b, 21Or do you get to pick and choose which groups get to use these tactics?b, 21b, 21And if there was truly a "popular" dissent, as in the majority of the citizens, voting is the way to address your grievance.b, 21b, 21And I'm sure if your home or business was firebombed you would have no problem accepting it as "popular dissent".
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