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Ask PIckwick: Motown Showdown

mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
edited November 2008 in Strut Central
Based on their 1960s-70s output (no 80s allowed), who is your #1 and why:b, 21b, 21Stevieb, 21Marvinb, 21Smokey
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  • kalakala 3,362 Posts
    how thought provoking
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21how thought provoking b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21Well, it's not a mix or a finds thread.
  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    Stevie killed it over Marvin in the 70's, they were bothb, 21great in the 60's but had some weak material to work withb, 21on a number of sessions. Hard to sound like I'm dissing Marvin'sb, 2170's action, but I just think Stevie takes the crown for that era.b, 21b, 21Smokey kinda kills it straight through, if you factor in hisb, 21songwriting and production along with his own hits and buriedb, 21gems. I really want to say Smokey, cause he seriously is the man.
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    Hmmm...b, 21b, 21I know it sounds like a copout, but they're all tied for #1, in my mind, because their peaks and valleys were roughly the same amount of time, with the same standard of excellence. b, 21b, 21But if I had to break it down, I'd probably have to rank Stevie #1. After his voice changed, his run of hits from 1966-70 was incredible. Man sounded like he was having fun. 'Specially if you hear his adlibs on tracks like "I Was Made To Love Her." And then in 1971, all hell broke loose, and he did the classic six-album run we all love: Where I'm Coming From through Songs In The Key Of Life.b, 21b, 21Marvin was cool, too, although ain't much I can say about him that hasn't already been said on the Strut.b, 21b, 21Smokey wasn't as experimental as the other two, but as far as straightforward love-man songs, with classic complicated rhyming lyrics, he's The Master. Having Marv Tarplin on guitar didn't hurt. b, 21b, 21Search: Pure Smokey and Smokey's Family Robinson, two solo LP's from the seventies, where he's sorta playing catch-up with Marvin and Stevie...Pure Smokey has him singing all these songs with controversial topics. Family Robinson, IIRC, is more funk-oriented than what he usually did. Both are great.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Saying - I surprised myself when I really gave this some serious thought and Marvin might come in third too. Stevie had some songs that almost singlehandedly son other artists' entire catalog while Smokey was such a talent on multiple levels. Gaye had the gravity though but on any given day, I'd probably rather listen to Stevie.
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Stevie killed it over Marvin in the 70's, they were bothb, 21great in the 60's but had some weak material to work withb, 21on a number of sessions. Hard to sound like I'm dissing Marvin'sb, 2170's action, but I just think Stevie takes the crown for that era.b, 21b, 21Smokey kinda kills it straight through, if you factor in hisb, 21songwriting and production along with his own hits and buriedb, 21gems. I really want to say Smokey, cause he seriously is the man. b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21This is sort of how I feel about it too.
  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Stevie - Best instrumentalist, most innovative and adventurous musically, great song writer.b, 21b, 21Marvin - At his best he is by far the most personal. Great songwriter and singer, played drums on lots of early sessions.b, 21b, 21Smoky - Greatest pop lyricist (Ever?). Soaring melodies. Fabulous producer, arranger for others. b, 21b, 21But what about HDH? Are any of the above better songwriters?
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Stevie - Best instrumentalist, most innovative and adventurous musically, great song writer.b, 21b, 21Marvin - At his best he is by far the most personal. Great songwriter and singer, played drums on lots of early sessions.b, 21b, 21Smoky - Greatest pop lyricist (Ever?). Soaring melodies. Fabulous producer, arranger for others. b, 21b, 21But what about HDH? Are any of the above better songwriters? b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21I'd say they're about equal, songwriting-wise.b, 21b, 21Do you think Holland-Dozier-Holland were better singers?b, 21b, 21I just have a few scattered singles by various combinations of the three, but Lamont Dozier's "Fish Ain't Bitin'" is just a classic record all around...and Eddie Holland could do a killer Jackie Wilson imitation, if you've ever heard "Jamie."
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Motown became formulaic until Marvin rebelled. Stevie benefitted from Marvin's fight.b, 21b, 21Stevie stretched the sonic boundaries of R&B.b, 21b, 21Marvin created the "first" R&B concept album.b, 21b, 21Smokey had carte blanche to work within Gordy's system and set up the foundation for Stevie & Marvin to progress.
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    Eddie Holland & Lamont Dozier were both great singers, that can't be denied, but they should be & are rightfully remembered more for their writing & producing. They never had the concentration of success as performing artists that would qualify them to be included in this thread. I would agree that as writers they are all about equal. As performers Marvin, Stevie & Smokey have much more of a catalog over an extended time period.
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    Is Smokey in the 60s > Marvin or Stevie in the 70s??
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21 Marvin or Stevie in the 70s?? b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21NO...imo.b, 21b, 21If were discussing in the context of MOTOWN.
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21 Marvin or Stevie in the 70s?? b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21To me, Smokey in the 60s = Marvin or Stevie in the 70sb, 21b, 21I know it's a different kind of sensibility, but in terms of records I play a lot, "What's So Good About Goodbye" is just as good as "What's Going On" or "Higher Ground".b, 21b, 21How do you think Smokey's '70s stuff compares to '70s Marvin/Stevie? "Cruisin'," "I Don't Blame You At All," "We've Come Too Far To End It Now," "She's Only A Baby Herself," "Virgin Man"??? Like they say on Soul Strut, authentic craniums are aware of the situation...
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21How do you think Smokey's '70s stuff compares to '70s Marvin/Stevie? "Cruisin'," "I Don't Blame You At All," "We've Come Too Far To End It Now," "She's Only A Baby Herself," "Virgin Man"??? Like they say on Soul Strut, authentic craniums are aware of the situation... b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21Smokey was following Marvin's sensibilities.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Stevie, not Marvin, was the first to really break from Gordy's grasp, thus setting up a precedent of increased artist independence for the rest of the Motown roster.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    During the Q-Tip show last night, at one point, he was doing the whole Roots routine of letting his band solo and his bassist started playing the bassline from "My Cherie Amour" and cotdamn if the entire venue didn't sing the first verse. I love shit like that
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Stevie, not Marvin, was the first to really break from Gordy's grasp, thus setting up a precedent of increased artist independence for the rest of the Motown roster. b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21From what I recall, Marvin was the asshole and then Stevie was like " Oh shit I can do that too".b, 21b, 21What's Goin On changed the Game at Motown and then Stevie did Music Of My Mind.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Stevie re-signed w/ Motown and made his new shit after What's Goin On.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    yeah but what about "Where I'm Coming From"? That came out before "What's Going On"
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    yes, the transition in Stevie's work came about post-Marvin's "What's Going On" thing.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21yeah but what about "Where I'm Coming From"? That came out before "What's Going On" b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21Motown sat on What's Goin On because of its political nature. b, 21b, 21And Ive never seen Where I'm Coming From in any Black Folks stash.b, 21b, 21Stevie had a ZZZZzzzzzz period until he re-emerged w/ Music Of My Mind.b, 21b, 21Just in terms of pop success.b, 21b, 21Do u even hear anything from that album in the radio now?b, 21b, 21Just sayin.b, 21b, 21I could be totally off track.
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21yeah but what about "Where I'm Coming From"? That came out before "What's Going On" b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21"Where I'm Coming From" wasn't the success that "What's Going On" was. It didn't get Stevie creative/artistic control from Gordy, "What's Going On" was the one that blew Gordy's pre-conceptions & allowed Gaye the leverage to go for future creative/artistic control. Which Stevie then stipulated in his contract renewal. It's debatable if Stevie would have had the leverage for it without his contract being up in the air & his stalling on re-signing with Motown at that time, or if "What's Going On" had been the relative commercial flop that "Where I'm Coming From" was.
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21b, 21How do you think Smokey's '70s stuff compares to '70s Marvin/Stevie? "Cruisin'," "I Don't Blame You At All," "We've Come Too Far To End It Now," "She's Only A Baby Herself," "Virgin Man"??? Like they say on Soul Strut, authentic craniums are aware of the situation... b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21I think it follows closely behind.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21yeah but what about "Where I'm Coming From"? That came out before "What's Going On" b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21"Where I'm Coming From" wasn't the success that "What's Going On" was. It didn't get Stevie creative/artistic control from Gordy, "What's Going On" was the one that blew Gordy's pre-conceptions & allowed Gaye the leverage to go for future creative/artistic control. Which Stevie then stipulated in his contract renewal. It's debatable if Stevie would have had the leverage for it without his contract being up in the air & his stalling on re-signing with Motown at that time, or if "What's Going On" had been the relative commercial flop that "Where I'm Coming From" was. b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21This may be really splitting hairs and it's not like the historical chain of events is really all that crucial here but...b, 21b, 21In terms of internal, bucking-the-system, HDH were the first to really rebel against Gordy, beginning in '67 and going full-blown in '68. At the same time, Wonder was probably the first major Motown artist to start going political, all the way back in '66 when he covered "Blowin' In the Wind" and recorded "Place in the Sun." Then in '68, you start seeing songs like "Love Child" (Supremes + HDH), "Cloud Nine" (Temptations + Whitfield), and of course, "War" by both the Temptations and then Edwin Starr come out by 1970. b, 21b, 21This, of course, isn't to take away from "What's Going On" and Gaye's general impact at Motown - he was already stirring shit up once Tammi Terrell's health was going into decline. But I don't know if it's accurate to give Gaye the bulk of the credit for really changing shit at Motown - there seems to have been a confluence of things happening at Motown during the last few years of the '60s before it all blew up in the summer of 1970 but not solely thanks to Gaye's doing.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Political Singles Vs. Political ALBUM.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21Political Singles Vs. Political ALBUM. b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21Sure but the question here is who lead the Motown insurrection and from what I know, it's not really so much as a group effort by a bunch of Motown talents tired of Gordy ripping them off.
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21/font1Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21yeah but what about "Where I'm Coming From"? That came out before "What's Going On" b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21Motown sat on What's Goin On because of its political nature. b, 21b, 21And Ive never seen Where I'm Coming From in any Black Folks stash.b, 21b, 21Stevie had a ZZZZzzzzzz period until he re-emerged w/ Music Of My Mind.b, 21b, 21Just in terms of pop success.b, 21b, 21Do u even hear anything from that album in the radio now?b, 21b, 21h, 21b, 21b, 21From Where I'm Coming From? Actually, yeah - that was the album that had "If You Really Love Me" on it. b, 21b, 21By contrast, MOMM is the LP that never gets played on the radio. The hit singles were "Superwoman" and "Keep On Running," but no oldies or dusties formats play those songs today.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    I still hear Superwoman during the Quiet Storm every blue moon.b, 21b, 21Maybe Gaye was that cat because he was married to Anna Gaye and had the leverage to battle the powers at Motown. Along w/ the changing cultural climate.b, 21b, 21There was art being made in Detroit that reflected the Black Community, but Marvin held the fusk out for WGO.b, 21Motown gained from his bull-headedness.
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h, 21b, 21b, 21This may be really splitting hairs and it's not like the historical chain of events is really all that crucial here but...b, 21b, 21In terms of internal, bucking-the-system, HDH were the first to really rebel against Gordy, beginning in '67 and going full-blown in '68. At the same time, Wonder was probably the first major Motown artist to start going political, all the way back in '66 when he covered "Blowin' In the Wind" and recorded "Place in the Sun." Then in '68, you start seeing songs like "Love Child" (Supremes + HDH), "Cloud Nine" (Temptations + Whitfield), and of course, "War" by both the Temptations and then Edwin Starr come out by 1970. b, 21b, 21But I don't know if it's accurate to give Gaye the bulk of the credit for really changing shit at Motown - there seems to have been a confluence of things happening at Motown during the last few years of the '60s before it all blew up in the summer of 1970 but not solely thanks to Gaye's doing. b, 21b, 21h, 21
    b, 21b, 21Yeah, but at least Marvin and post-'71 Stevie WROTE and PRODUCED their own political records. On the other hand, things like "Love Child" and "Cloud Nine" came straight off the assembly line just like "Baby Love" and "My Girl." b, 21b, 21And when Marvin and Stevie decided to liberate their music, they liberated their image as well. One minute here's Marvin and Stevie in Vegas, singing Burt Bacharach songs and wearing tuxedoes; but after their breakthrough albums, Marvin grew the beard, Stevie rocked the cornrows; Marvin had this jazzy style similar to Donny Hathaway, Stevie was courting the rock crowd with a sound similar to Sly Stone. And both men started emphasizing their keyboard playing. The era of progressive soul had arrived, and the Vegas tuxedo days were in the past for these guys.b, 21b, 21I couldn't put the Tempts in that bag. While their albums leaned in a psychedelic soul direction, they were still a polished showbiz quintet through and through. Same post-doowop group they always were, they just updated their style. They were still big in the supperclubs, but they didn't flirt with the hipster rock crowd like Stevie and Funkadelic did.
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