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Ask Pickwick: Philly soul edition

mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
edited October 2008 in Strut Central
Pickwick:b,121b,121I've been reading "House on Fire" (John Jackson's history of Philadelphia soul as told mostly through the Gamble-Huff-Bell story) as well as listening to this new box set about to come out, "Love Train" (aka the greatest hits from the Philly soul era) and I'm wondering this from Pickwick:b,121b,1211) Personally, where do you rank the overall Philly soul catalog alongside its main competitors namely Motown and Memphis/Muscle Shoals?b,121b,1212) I always thought the Philly soul sound was almost like a logical progression directly out of the Motown sound, in other words, if you took what Holland-Dozier-Holland was doing circa 66 and imagined what it'd sound like in 71, voila! Gamble-Bell-Huff. It's not that the latter were derivative but musically speaking, I pick up more similarities between it and Detroit's R&B traditions than I do with Atlantic or Stax. Your thoughts? b,121b,1213) Your favorite Philly soul jams?
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  Comments

  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    1) I think the Philly sound is every bit as important as Motown and Muscle Shoals, but a little underrated. There's like a thousand Motown books out there, both in and out of print, but in 29 years there have only been TWO books about the Philly sound...When I was a kid and just starting to get into music, I always liked Philadelphia Int'l records because they had really hip stereo separations, and I'd just ride that balance knob, left to right, to hear the difference...b,121b,1212) Never thought about it that way, but I can see where you're going with it...both the Motown and Philly Int'l house bands were overtly jazz-oriented, and it came out in the sound...but even then, there's a difference: the cats in Philly were riding HARD on the Wes Montgomery octave guitar licks, as well as the vibraphone...that's two elements Motown didn't have...plus 1970's audiences were more open than 1960's soul fans were...a project like MFSB probably would have flown over everybody's heads in 1966 (except for a few jazz fans), but were just right for 1974...this ten-year shift in tastes allowed MFSB to stretch out a lot more than Earl Van Dyke & the Soul Brothers could have.b,121b,1213) Here's ten off the head (subject to change):b,121"I Wanna Do The Do," Bobby Rush (the guys in Philly prove they could play juke-joint blues like nobody's business)b,121"Mighty Cloud Of Joy," Mighty Clouds of Joyb,121"Days Go By," Wilson Pickettb,121"Back Stabbers," O'Jaysb,121"If You Don't Know Me By Now," Harold Melvin & the Blue Notesb,121"Games People Play," Spinnersb,121"Nickol, Nickol," Brothers Of Hopeb,121"I'm Doin' Fine Now," New York Cityb,121"I'm Girl Scoutin'", Intrudersb,121the entire Yellow Sunshine album (black rock, Philly style)
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    And what would YOUR fave Philly jams be, Manny (or anyone else)?
  • DocMcCoyDocMcCoy "Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
    Rate these three Philly vocal groups in order of preference, and state your favourite tune from each;b,121b,121The Delfonicsb,121Blue Magicb,121The Intrudersb,121b,121What's your take on Thom Bell? My boy Steve thinks he's a genius the equal of Charles Stepney, mainly because of the way he tried to incorporate his classical influences within r&b structures without shortchanging either side. My understanding was that he really wanted to be a serious classical composer, and didn't actually like making r&b records that much, but he knew that classical music was pretty much closed off to a black man, and that r&b was where the money was. I love the atmosphere of his productions and arrangements, but I know a lot of people for whom it's a little too soft. Knowing your preference for the uncut raw, I wondered where that sat with you.b,121b,121One of the reasons I love the Philly shit is because it represents a bridge between the grittier soul and r&b of the 1960s and the smoother, grown-and-sexy styles of the 70s out of which came disco. There are tons of Philly records which got play on the Northern scene in the UK (still do, in fact), and a lot of the rock kids I grew up with got off on the deeper, more expansive shit like Ship Ahoy and War Of The Gods. In your experience, were there many white cats checking for that in the same way as, perhaps, Curtis, Marvin or Stevie?
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    A Philly 45 I bought recently & am enjoying is The Ethics "Look At Me Now" (uptempo)/"Think About Tomorrow" (ballad) on Vent. Really great group vocal soul that I'd never heard of before, I think it's pretty early as far as Vince Montana arrangements go. It's great.
  • DocMcCoyDocMcCoy "Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
    I could be here all day listing my favourite Philly jamsb,121b,121Detroit Spinners: Mighty Loveb,121O'Jays: For The Love Of Money (this was some unearthly shit to me when I was a kid)b,121O'Jays: I Love Music (stone cold sure shot on the dance floor)b,121Teddy Pendergrass: Come Go With Meb,121Patti Labelle: If Only You Knewb,121MFSB: Cheaper To Keep Herb,121Billy Paul: East (heavy as F*ck)b,121The Jones Girls: Nights Over Egyptb,121The Jones Girls: Get As Much Love As You Canb,121The Jones Girls: Life Goes Onb,121The Jones Girls: You're Gonna Make Me Love Somebody Else (I kinda like the Jones Girls)b,121Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes: I Miss Youb,121Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes: Be For Realb,121Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes: Wake Up Everybodyb,121The Delfonics: Walk Right Up To The Sunb,121The Delfonics: The Love I Gave To Youb,121Blue Magic: What's Come Over Meb,121First Choice: The Playerb,121First Choice: Armed and Extremely Dangerousb,121Ultra High Frequency: We're On The Right Trackb,121b,121I got time for those 80s joints, and the Philly World records that Nick Martinelli had a hand in too.b,121b,121O'Jays: Put Our Heads Togetherb,121Phyllis Hyman: Living All Alone (almost that entire album is great to me)b,121Montana Sextet: Who Needs Enemiesb,121Montana Sextet: Heavy Vibesb,121Shirley Jones: Do You Get Enough Love (side 1 of this album is moder facemelt)b,121b,121I've barely scratched the surface here. One day, I want to make a pilgrimage to Sigma Sound, so I hope no Philly heads are going to get on here and say it's been demolished to build a Duane Reade or anything...
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121Rate these three Philly vocal groups in order of preference, and state your favourite tune from each;b,121b,121The Delfonicsb,121Blue Magicb,121The Intrudersb,121b,121h,121
    b,121b,121Hmm, hard for me to rate them because I like just about all three equally. As far as favorite songs..."He Don't Really Love You" (Delfonics), "Sideshow" (Blue Magic), "I'm Girl Scoutin'" (Intruders).b,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121What's your take on Thom Bell? My boy Steve thinks he's a genius the equal of Charles Stepney, mainly because of the way he tried to incorporate his classical influences within r&b structures without shortchanging either side. My understanding was that he really wanted to be a serious classical composer, and didn't actually like making r&b records that much, but he knew that classical music was pretty much closed off to a black man, and that r&b was where the money was. I love the atmosphere of his productions and arrangements, but I know a lot of people for whom it's a little too soft. Knowing your preference for the uncut raw, I wondered where that sat with you.b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121As much as I love the uncut raw, actually I'm a big fan of Bell's stuff. He wasn't as jazzy as Gamble/Huff, yet he wasn't as avant-garde as Stepney. His stuff was "soft," but it worked - it didn't have that air of condescension that you sometimes get from classically-trained arrangers trying to "go pop."b,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121One of the reasons I love the Philly shit is because it represents a bridge between the grittier soul and r&b of the 1960s and the smoother, grown-and-sexy styles of the 70s out of which came disco. There are tons of Philly records which got play on the Northern scene in the UK (still do, in fact), and a lot of the rock kids I grew up with got off on the deeper, more expansive shit like Ship Ahoy and War Of The Gods. In your experience, were there many white cats checking for that in the same way as, perhaps, Curtis, Marvin or Stevie? b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121Not from what I've seen (although I've been wrong before). b,121b,121Apart from anomalies like Yellow Sunshine, there doesn't seem to be a lot of rockist tendencies in the Philly Int'l stable...I might have known a rock fan or two who rode for the O'Jays' hits, but not enough that they'd seek out the more ambitious albums like Ship Ahoy...the same way that the Mojo crowd seems to be waking up to the Temptations' psychedelic phase.
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    It always cracks me up that The Cruisers' "Take A Chance" is on the Gamble label. What MFSB tracks do people ride for? I was buying a bunch of their records at one point but have reduced almost them all down now. I kept "Sexy" & "The Zip" on 45, "The Sound of Philadelphia" & "Philadelphia Freedom" LPs & that's all. They're probably getting too close to disco which is my main gripe with a bit of that Philadelphia stuff.
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121It always cracks me up that The Cruisers' "Take A Chance" is on the Gamble label. What MFSB tracks do people ride for? I was buying a bunch of their records at one point but have reduced almost them all down now. I kept "Sexy" & "The Zip" on 45, "The Sound of Philadelphia" & "Philadelphia Freedom" LPs & that's all. They're probably getting too close to disco which is my main gripe with a bit of that Philadelphia stuff. b,121b,121h,121
    b,121b,121I have three MFSB albums - the s/t debut, Love Is The Message, and a best-of. And I have the same bias against disco as you, but for some reason, it doesn't bother me with MFSB. Can't explain why.b,121b,121I will say this, though...if I'm not mistaken, MFSB are the same musicians (more or less) that play on the Salsoul Orchestra's joints...but while I'll accept it from MFSB, I cannot stand the Salsoul Orchestra...maybe it's because Salsoul is a lot more gimmicky and metronomic while MFSB is more earthbound, but at any rate, that's where the Philly sound hit a stone wall, with that Salsoul shit.
  • DongerDonger 854 Posts
    MFSB has a warmth to their sound that Salsoul doesn't really have, but Salsoul has great percussive dance tracks. Salsoul is when those musicians stopped being "sort of disco", and became full on disco. I like disco, so I like both groups.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Thanks for indulging my curiosity. As usual, your knowledge is a real gift to this site.b,121b,121See...for me, I really respect Philly Int'l, I dig on their whole catalog...but I never really got into the bulk of it the same way that, say, Stax or Atlantic or Curtom stuff really hit me. Moreover, what I do like them from tends to be their '60s sides rather than the huge 70s hits they had. That's especially true for someone like the Spinners - I really love their Motown stuff but am not as blown by their Philly Int'l years. b,121b,121This all said, a few favorites:b,121b,121William DeVaughn: Be Thankful For What You Gotb,121The Intruders: Togetherb,121Delfonics: Ready Or Notb,121O'Jays: Give the People What THey Wantb,121Teddy P: Love TKO
  • funky16cornersfunky16corners 7,175 Posts
    You need to take it back a bit further.b,121b,121b,121Volcanos - entire catalog but especially 'Storm Warning' and 'It's Against the Laws of Love'b,121b,121Bunny Sigler - Girl Don't Make me Waitb,121b,121Four Larks - Groovin' At the Go Gob,121b,121Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes - Get Out and Let Me Cryb,121b,121Cooperettes - Shingalingb,121b,121All of Eddie Holman's stuff on Cameo/Parkway and Bellb,121b,121most of which are on these....b,121b,121

    strong1Example/strong1

    b,121b,121strong1The Ambassadors/strong1b,121b,121strong1Funky16Corners Radio v.36- Philly Soul Pt2: On the Northern Side/strong1b,121b,121strong1Playlist/strong1b,121b,121strong1Cooperettes ??? Shingaling (Brunswick)b,121Chubby Checker ??? Hey You Little Boogaloo (Cameo)b,121Intruders ??? Up and Down the Ladder (Gamble)b,121Eddie Holman ??? Stay Mine for Heaven???s Sake (Parkway)b,121Fantastic Johnny C ??? New Love (Phil L.A. of Soul)b,121Preludes ??? Deeper Than That (Harthon)b,121Bob Brady & the Con Chords ??? More More More of Your Love (Chariot)b,121Candy & the Kisses ??? The 81 (Cameo)b,121Bunny Sigler ??? Girl Don???t Make Me Wait (Parkway)b,121Ambassadors ??? (I Got To Find) Happiness (Atlantic)b,121Intruders ??? (You???d Better) Check Yourself (Gamble)b,121Joe Renzetti???s Sound ??? Reach Out I???ll Be There (Mala)b,121Mike & Ike ??? Sax on the Tracks (Arctic)b,121Show Stoppers ??? How Can Your Heart Forget Me (Heritage)b,121Bunny Sigler ??? Follow Your Heart (Parkway)b,121Volcanos ??? It???s Gotta Be a False Alarm (Harthon)b,121Bernard Williams & the Blue Notes ??? It???s Needless To Say (Harthon)b,121Lee Garrett ??? I Can't Break the Habit (Harthon)b,121Billy Harner ??? I Struck It Rich (OR)b,121/strong1b,121b,121strong1strong1Listen/ Download 44MB Mixed MP3/strong1/a1/strong1strong1 /strong1b,121b,121strong1strong1Download 44MB Zip File/strong1/a1/strong1b,121b,121b,121strong1Funky16Corners Radio v.21 - Philly Soul Vol 1/strong1b,121strong1Example/strong1b,121strong1The Volcanos/strong1b,121b,121strong1Track Listingb,121Volcanos ??? Storm Warning (Arctic)b,121Agents ??? You Were Meant For Me (P&L)b,121Herb Johnson ??? Two Steps (Ahead of a Woman) (Swan)b,121Globeliters ??? The Way You Do (Philtown)b,121Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes ??? Get Out (And Let Me Cry) (Landa)b,121Butlers ??? Laugh Laugh Laugh (PHILA)b,121Common Pleas ??? I Wanted More (Crimson)b,121Casinos ??? If I Told You (Del-Val)b,121Formations ??? At the Top of the Stairs (MGM)b,121Eddie Holman ??? I???ll Cry 1,000 Tears (Bell)b,121Ambassadors ??? I Can???t Believe You Love Me (Arctic)b,121Intruders ??? All the Time (Excel)b,121Patti & The Emblems ??? Please Don???t Leave Me Baby (Kapp)b,121Cruisers ??? Take a Chance (Gamble)b,121Intrigues ??? In a Moment (Yew)b,121Ethics ??? Look at Me Now (Vent)b,121Gene Faith ??? My Baby???s Missing (Virtue)/strong1b,121b,121strong1Download ??? 39MB Mixed MP3/a1/strong1b,121b,121strong1b,121Download ??? 39MB Zip strong1
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    I should add: The Ethics' "I Want My Baby Back" is killer too.
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    I almost ashamed to say that for some reason totally against my control, I ride for Salsoul Hustle & most of that first Salsoul Orchestra LP, don't ask me why.
  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121I almost ashamed to say that for some reason totally against my control, I ride for Salsoul Hustle & most of that first Salsoul Orchestra LP, don't ask me why. b,121b,121h,121
    b,121b,121I>there is nothing wrong with liking disco![/i]
  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121I almost ashamed to say that for some reason totally against my control, I ride for Salsoul Hustle & most of that first Salsoul Orchestra LP, don't ask me why. b,121b,121h,121
    b,121b,121I>there is nothing wrong with liking disco![/i] b,121b,121h,121b,121Ha ha, we've been down this conversation path before I will strive to quash any disco tendencies I may have if it's the last thing I do....
  • DongerDonger 854 Posts
    One of my big songs that I just keep listening to over and over in the headphones this year = Brother's Guiding Light "Getting Together". This tune has not let up on me yet.
  • luckluck 4,077 Posts
    The Ambassadors are probably my favorite Philadelphia group. The Ethics and 1984 make the top 5, too.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    great threadb,121b,121 b,121b,121Ill add this.b,121b,121The Jacksons grew during thier time w. Gamble & Huff. And the residuals are apparent w/ their next albums and w/ Michael's Off The Wall. Its all there.b,121b,121
  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    The Thom Bell-produced Johnny Mathis LP: worth czecking?
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121The Thom Bell-produced Johnny Mathis LP: worth czecking? b,121b,121h,121
    b,121b,121I never heard it. I dont own any Mathis.
  • neil_somethingneil_something 993 Posts
    A slightly anal question regarding Billy Paul's "East": D.B. Shrier has a version of "East" on his "Emerges" album and I think the person who wrote the song played bass on both versions. Is this the case, and which one was first?
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121The Thom Bell-produced Johnny Mathis LP (i1I'm Coming Home[/i])/b1: worth czecking? b,121b,121h,121
    b,121b,121I never heard it. I dont own any Mathis. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121I have a single of "Life Is A Song Worth Singing" b/w "I Just Wanted To Be Me." It's actually pretty good! Bell and Mathis do a pretty good job of meeting each other's styles halfway. BTW, this is Philly-style soul music, not the usual middle-of-the-road pop that Mathis is known for, and he adapts well. Never heard the whole album; I am in no way a Mathis fan, but I like those two songs from the single and have considered buying the whole elpee...
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    /font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121The Thom Bell-produced Johnny Mathis LP (i1I'm Coming Home[/i])/b1: worth czecking? b,121b,121h,121
    b,121b,121I never heard it. I dont own any Mathis. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121I have a single of "Life Is A Song Worth Singing" b/w "I Just Wanted To Be Me." It's actually pretty good! Bell and Mathis do a pretty good job of meeting each other's styles halfway. BTW, this is Philly-style soul music, not the usual middle-of-the-road pop that Mathis is known for, and he adapts well. Never heard the whole album; I am in no way a Mathis fan, but I like those two songs from the single and have considered buying the whole elpee... b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121
  • bull_oxbull_ox 5,056 Posts
    I've tried a few Mathis LPs w/hip producers - including that one - and the cheese has just been too heavy, I've never kept any of them... he's got a tune here and there, but not even an LP side thats completely listenable.
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    Strangely enough, Johnny Mathis actually remade "Me & Mrs. Jones" on an album of the same name. This was before Thom Bell and the Philly crew got to him...
  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts
    Has anyone mentioned The Intrigues?b,121b,121Some nice Thom Bell production on their lone LP.b,121b,121img src="http://i14.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/81/c9/de15_1.JPG"1
  • JimsterJimster Cruffiton.etsy.com 6,955 Posts
    "Ain't No Stopping Us Now" is my ish. I just googled for what else M&W did and the 'facts' (internet facts) are:b,121b,121McFadden And Whitehead also wrote "Bad Luck" for Harold Melvin and "Back Stabbers" for the O'Jays. This was their only hit as a duo.b,121b,121Whitehead's sons Johnny and Kenny recorded as part of an R&B group called the Whitehead Brothers. (Was this "Forget I Was A G"?)b,121b,121On May 11, 2004, Whitehead was shot to death while he was working on a vehicle in Philadelphia. He was 55.
  • JimsterJimster Cruffiton.etsy.com 6,955 Posts
    I also thought Salsoul was the MFSB guys but with the Vince Montana Jr. doing the arranging, but it seems he did both. This is a good read if you dig that sound:b,121b,121a href="http://www.phillysoundworks.com/about.html" target="_blank"1http://www.phillysoundworks.com/about.html/a1
  • froz1froz1 154 Posts
    Why not include Arctic? Honey & The Bees - Love addict & Baby, Do That Thing have been in constant rotation for the last month or so...
  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    Seriously underrated: the Soul Survivors.b,121b,121Their Crimson album (When The Whistle Blows, Anything Goes With The Soul Survivors) is a classic Rascals-derived soul LP, with weird psychedelic touches. I'll also ride for '70s sides like their self-titled TSOP album and "Happy Birthday America" (a 1976 single on Philadelphia International).b,121b,121They had a really good LP on Atco, too, but I believe that was recorded in Muscle Shoals (Duane Allman is on it) so it's out of the scope of this thread.b,121b,121/font1
    Quote:/font1h,121b,121Why not include Arctic? b,121b,121h,121
    font class="post"1b,121b,121Who said we wouldn't? img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21
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