b,121That was a trainwreck (on Frum's part.) He tried to sabotage her and she handled herself really well.
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b,121Really? I thought she embarrassed herself. No intelligence person, could possibly believe that some nutbar at a rally with thousands of people is a reflection on McCain's campaign or the conservative movement. I realize that this is a popular opinion these days on the New York Times op-ed page, but it's ridiculous. Should we judge Democratic leaders by the comment section at Daily Kos or the Huffington Post or when Jane Hamsher puts up a picture of Joe Lieberman in black face on firedoglake? Should the Obama campaign be summarized by the poster of Che Guevera at the regional campaign office? And this line of attack is coming in the same breath of democrats defending Obama's association with an ex leader of the weather underground? So serving on a charitable board with Ayers does not reflect on Obama, but a random nutjob at a rally tells you what you need to know about McCain. Balderdash.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121I hate that kind of overly partisan cable tv "journalism". Frum was ready to have a discussion about negative and dirty campaigning. She just wanted to score points. b,121b,121On the other hand I don't think there is 1to1 correlation between comments on dailykos and Palin suggesting that Obama is a terrorist and is dangerous.b,121b,121Nor is there a 1to1 between a poster in a field office and people preselected to ask question at a townhall who then indite Obama as an Arab, a Muslim and a terrorist. b,121b,121Considering McCain's close association with John Singlaub, and Singlaub's close association with Nazis, I would think that you would not want to be playing the association game. McCain actually served on Singlaub's Council's advisory committee so there is no way that McCain did not approve of Singlaub's close association with Nazis. b,121b,121But what ever, if you think an association with a reformed 60s radical is the same as paling around with Nazis who am I to disagree.
b,121 I don't really think this guy got served so much.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121For real - where exactly was the "clock cleaned"? Not like I love dude but I was expecting some Ali-standing-over-Liston pwnage and this just seemed like two pundits engaged in a rather boring convo.
Speaking of Fred Armisen as Obama...... Either he is getting better at it or I'm just getting more used to it. Its hard to say.b,121b,121b,121He is one odd looking dude though.
b,121That was a trainwreck (on Frum's part.) He tried to sabotage her and she handled herself really well.
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b,121Really? I thought she embarrassed herself. No intelligence person, could possibly believe that some nutbar at a rally with thousands of people is a reflection on McCain's campaign or the conservative movement. I realize that this is a popular opinion these days on the New York Times op-ed page, but it's ridiculous. Should we judge Democratic leaders by the comment section at Daily Kos or the Huffington Post or when Jane Hamsher puts up a picture of Joe Lieberman in black face on firedoglake? Should the Obama campaign be summarized by the poster of Che Guevera at the regional campaign office? And this line of attack is coming in the same breath of democrats defending Obama's association with an ex leader of the weather underground? So serving on a charitable board with Ayers does not reflect on Obama, but a random nutjob at a rally tells you what you need to know about McCain. Balderdash.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121"Balderdash"?? b,121b,121Who is this, really....b,121b,121b,121b/wb,121b,121b,121David Frum is super creepy. Kiddie diddler creepy.
vitamin's unwillingness to admit that palin was stoking this kind of creepy sentiment is bizarre. please link to speeches where obama advocates for the heroism of che guevera and ill link you to some where palin asks leading questions like 'what do we REALLY know about barack obama?' to a crowd of ppl who obviously have no f*cking clue about the world around them.
b,121You're fighting a losing battle. When it came to WMD, the U.S. intelligence agencies were in fantasy land.
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b,121is that not what ive been arguing?
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b,121No, they were in fantasy land claiming that Iraq not only had WMD, but that it's programs were all up and running, and that they were larger than before the 1st Gulf war. They also said that the nuclear program was up and running as well and that the Baghdad was activelly trying to buy materials illegally.
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b,121There was never evidence that the intelligence analysts were pressured to exaggerate or re-do intel on Iraq's WMD because they were already way WAYYY out there in their reporting. (More like heads up their asses)
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b,121Everything that Powell said in his U.N. speech for example came from spending days at CIA headquarters and going through report after report. Almost everything that the White House wanted to include in the report, Powell dropped.
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b,121The part you are correct on is that what the White House said about Al Qaeda and Iraq did not match what the intelligence agencies were saying.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121i dont understand this kind of thinking, though. there was no need to distort intelligence because the intelligence was already distorted? this is total chicken-egg logic
vitamin,b,121b,121b,121b,121... i assume this is the kind of thing you're comparing to "lol bush = hitler" dailykos posts right? even if u assume that equivalency is legit (pretty suspect imo) thats a long way off from stoking anti-muslim xenophobia in campaign speeches which is exactly what the veep candidate has been doing. if u dont get how code language works or you want to pretend shes just 'doing the media's job' or whatever other bullshit right wing narrative about lol left wing media then feel free but you're in denial and its really blatant
Christopher Buckley was forced off the National Review for endorsing Obama. b,121b,121This explains why V is defending McCain and Palin.b,121b,121He is job hunting. He is a neo-con. He wants to work at a right leaning paper/magazine. b,121b,121And now there is an opening at the National Review, because the founders son didn't follow the party line. b,121b,121I guess journalistic independence is not important to these people. b,121b,121I have never heard of any other journalist ever being fired for their views. b,121b,121I wonder if this passes V's McCarthyism test.
b,121Christopher Buckley was forced off the National Review for endorsing Obama.
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b,121This explains why V is defending McCain and Palin.
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b,121He is job hunting. He is a neo-con. He wants to work at a right leaning paper/magazine.
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b,121And now there is an opening at the National Review, because the founders son didn't follow the party line.
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b,121I guess journalistic independence is not important to these people.
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b,121I have never heard of any other journalist ever being fired for their views.
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b,121I wonder if this passes V's McCarthyism test.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121. First off all Buckley left NR willingly as i understand it. This notion that he was forced out was some incorrect speculation by the Slate chick blog. Second of all, I am not looking for a job there. Third of all, you'd be surprised at who has offered me jobs, but they are not right leaning magazines. And as best as I can tell it would be to my benefit as a journalist to go along and pretend that John McCain and Sarah Palin are ginning up mobs to do violence to Obama and his supporters, a bizarre slander and smokescreen, than to go on a record forum comment board and refute this. b,121b,121As for Deej, again I am not sure what you are trying to say. If you wish to say that George Packer and I guess you think there is some direct connection between whackadoos at a rally and the rhetoric of Sarah Palin, be my guest. I think the plain meaning of her comment was that Obama has hung out with Bill Ayers, who was a terrorist and has since justified and failed to repent for his crimes in the 1960s and 1970s. Senator Durbin once compared American GIs to Nazis after the revelations of Abu Ghraib, so would we therefore say Senator Durbin is responsible for the lunacy of an an ANSWER rally? That his rhetoric caused their rhetoric or actions. Political movements both left and right contain multitudes. My point was that two can play at this game, and if this is the new standard by which to judge a candidate, then the Democrats stand to lose a lot more.
your 'two can play at this game' point would make a lot more sense if there was no difference between calling torturers "nazis" (sorry but american gi's or not it doesnt matter, comparing a torturer to a nazi should not in any realm qualify as a 'smear') and drawing on racist suspicion of barack obama in order to discredit him. b,121b,121why arent you calling for the annenberg project to apologized for funding ayers projects? shouldnt mrs annenberg be forced to withdraw her money from mccain's campaign since shes been funding a known unrepentant terrorist? well of course not - shes not a black democrat and therefore deserving of rightwing suspicion.b,121b,121your utter denial that palin's "what do we REALLY know about barack obama?" has anything to do w/ race is really disingenuous. why do you think they're using it as a mass campaign tactic - it doesnt make sense. 'some whackadoos at a rally' is a really funny thing to say - how many 'whackadoos' need to be identified (like the guy who put the 'obama' sticker on a stuffed monkey, the old bat who called obama an 'arab', the countless youtubes full of people at rallies repeating untrue smears designed to make obama seem unamerican) do you need before you think, you know what, maybe the rhetoric they're spouting is actually encouraging these people? do you really think there is NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between fearmongering speeches and a bunch of freaked out ignoramuses shouting death threats at rallys? i havent seen footage of any rallies wherein liberal 'whackadoos' call for mccain to be killed, have you?
and i hope your response blames 'the media', the harder you guys work the referees the funnier it is when the poll numbers slide furtherb,121b,121but dont worry, real media arbiters like dan balzsac are out there arguing fake equivalences for you every day - inciting fears of barack obama's foreign origins vs. calling mccain 'erratic,' two peas in a pod amirite?
b,121your utter denial that palin's "what do we REALLY know about barack obama?" has anything to do w/ race is really disingenuous. why do you think they're using it as a mass campaign tactic - it doesnt make sense.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121it makes plenty of sense. the Obama-as-political-debutante-with-no-substantive-voting-record-and-who-has-not-been-properly-vetted has been a GOP staple since before he even entered the race.b,121b,121I don't deny that some racists in the McCain camp hear "what do we REALLY know about barack obama?" and think "dark Muslim terrorist!" nor do I deny that McCain's people realize that such a reaction is to be expected from some of their supporters. and nor do I deny that McCain's people may actually invite such a response in order to further discredit Obama in the minds of some voters (and yes, this is dispicable).b,121b,121but please understand that eliciting such a response is not the *only possible* explanation for Palin's using this line of attack. you must concede that there is a rather more innocuous explanation: that it furthers the McCain-has-been-around-for-25-years-you-can-trust-him vs. this-guy-just-showed-up-out-of-nowhere narrative that has been employed since day one.
yes rather convenient isnt itb,121b,121i also rather love this bit of newsb,121a href="http://www.reason.com/blog/show/129474.html" target="_blank"1http://www.reason.com/blog/show/129474.htmlb,121b,121apparently frank gaffney of the neocon kill-anything-that-moves foreign policy wing has decided to spread some smears of his own about obama's originsb,121b,121now why would he 'believe' this sort of thing? unless he thought that perhaps he was fermenting doubts amongst the socially conservative ...
b,121your 'two can play at this game' point would make a lot more sense if there was no difference between calling torturers "nazis" (sorry but american gi's or not it doesnt matter, comparing a torturer to a nazi should not in any realm qualify as a 'smear') and drawing on racist suspicion of barack obama in order to discredit him.
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b,121why arent you calling for the annenberg project to apologized for funding ayers projects? shouldnt mrs annenberg be forced to withdraw her money from mccain's campaign since shes been funding a known unrepentant terrorist? well of course not - shes not a black democrat and therefore deserving of rightwing suspicion.
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b,121your utter denial that palin's "what do we REALLY know about barack obama?" has anything to do w/ race is really disingenuous. why do you think they're using it as a mass campaign tactic - it doesnt make sense. 'some whackadoos at a rally' is a really funny thing to say - how many 'whackadoos' need to be identified (like the guy who put the 'obama' sticker on a stuffed monkey, the old bat who called obama an 'arab', the countless youtubes full of people at rallies repeating untrue smears designed to make obama seem unamerican) do you need before you think, you know what, maybe the rhetoric they're spouting is actually encouraging these people? do you really think there is NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between fearmongering speeches and a bunch of freaked out ignoramuses shouting death threats at rallys? i havent seen footage of any rallies wherein liberal 'whackadoos' call for mccain to be killed, have you?
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font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121If your point is that racists in America exist and they are against Obama because he is black, then I agree. If your point is that McCain encourages this racism or that everyone who oppose Obama are racist then that's ridiculous. We've been round and round. Deej, you have a tendency to offer a bunch of lefty pabulum that does not address my point. The supreme leader of Iran applauded the Democrat victory in 2006, does that mean that Democrats encourage the terror masters in Iran to support them? Then why do racists who attend McCain rallies reflect on a deliberate strategy of Republicans? On and on it goes. I stand by my original point. If an abortion clinic bomber served on two charity boards with John McCain, you would all be going on and on about how he doesn't mean what he says and that John McCain really embraces the agenda of abortion clinic bombers. When a bomber of the pentagon serves on such a board with Obama it is racist to bring this up in a free election. Bizarre. Retarded. Whacky. b,121b,121As I wrote on some earlier thread, I think Obama will destroy the American left. I think he will end up waging more war in Afghanistan and Pakistan and likely employ a Reagan doctrine throughout the Islamic world. I think this will happen regardless of the "real Obama" because he will be taking over the White House in the middle of a war and the consensus in the military, foreign service and intelligence agencies will likely prevail upon him. But this is just a guess. I don't know Obama. You don't know Obama. Before he became a national politician, he espoused a lot of views of the hard left and surrounded himself with hard left figures. It is a good thing that we will have a black president, but that accomplishment will be diminished if he did not win a contested election. Asking questions about past associations has been part of our political process since Jefferson's Republican-Democrat party printed pamphlets accusing John Adams of being a royalist because of his stint as a diplomat in France and a few things he wrote after the revolution. It is totally legitimate for McCain's campaign to raise this issue.
b,121your 'two can play at this game' point would make a lot more sense if there was no difference between calling torturers "nazis" (sorry but american gi's or not it doesnt matter, comparing a torturer to a nazi should not in any realm qualify as a 'smear') and drawing on racist suspicion of barack obama in order to discredit him.
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b,121why arent you calling for the annenberg project to apologized for funding ayers projects? shouldnt mrs annenberg be forced to withdraw her money from mccain's campaign since shes been funding a known unrepentant terrorist? well of course not - shes not a black democrat and therefore deserving of rightwing suspicion.
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b,121your utter denial that palin's "what do we REALLY know about barack obama?" has anything to do w/ race is really disingenuous. why do you think they're using it as a mass campaign tactic - it doesnt make sense. 'some whackadoos at a rally' is a really funny thing to say - how many 'whackadoos' need to be identified (like the guy who put the 'obama' sticker on a stuffed monkey, the old bat who called obama an 'arab', the countless youtubes full of people at rallies repeating untrue smears designed to make obama seem unamerican) do you need before you think, you know what, maybe the rhetoric they're spouting is actually encouraging these people? do you really think there is NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between fearmongering speeches and a bunch of freaked out ignoramuses shouting death threats at rallys? i havent seen footage of any rallies wherein liberal 'whackadoos' call for mccain to be killed, have you?
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b,121If your point is that racists in America exist and they are against Obama because he is black, then I agree. If your point is that McCain encourages this racism or that everyone who oppose Obama are racist then that's ridiculous.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121you're confusing things here. 1. the mccain campaign is encouraging racism, although mccain the candidate has been a little more restrained, palin certainly has not, and it is his campaign so if he wanted to stop her he could 2. i never claimed that everyone who opposes obama is a racist but nice attempt to discredit me by assigning me a ridiculous argument that i did not in fact make. in fact my post above about gaffney implies i think gaffney is trading on racist to further his foreign policy ideas, not because he believes obama is from a foreign country but because he believes that repeating it enough will win his candidate of eternal wars some votes.b,121b,121/font1
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b,121We've been round and round. Deej, you have a tendency to offer a bunch of lefty pabulum that does not address my point. The supreme leader of Iran applauded the Democrat victory in 2006, does that mean that Democrats encourage the terror masters in Iran to support them? Then why do racists who attend McCain rallies reflect on a deliberate strategy of Republicans?
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font class="post"1b,121b,121this parallel is absurd. im talking about republicans exploiting rightwing fears of difference in order to win an election. there is no parallel between that and whatever the leaders of iran think about our internal politics.b,121b,121/font1
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b,121On and on it goes. I stand by my original point. If an abortion clinic bomber served on two charity boards with John McCain, you would all be going on and on about how he doesn't mean what he says and that John McCain really embraces the agenda of abortion clinic bombers. When a bomber of the pentagon serves on such a board with Obama it is racist to bring this up in a free election. Bizarre. Retarded. Whacky.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121actually, i dont believe that mccain is much of a religious conservative at all, or cares one way or another about abortion, so no, i probably would not be going 'on and on' about that. nice attempt at a parallel though. you're getting better.b,121b,121i honestly cant imagine that an abortion clinic bomber who served his time in jail, then served on a board with a conservative politician, would be a good comparison to this situation. What would the left do with it - argue that the conservative politician wants to get rid of roe v. wade? well, duh - pretty much any serious conservative politician (claims) to want to do this. so being on a board with an abortion clinic bomber, who bombed an abortion clinic in the late 60s, would definitely be brought up - but it wouldnt resonate for very long. how could it? abortion-bomber or not, we all know this guy wants to overturn roe v wade as thats essentially the majority position of the republican party. i cant see a serious democratic candidate accusing the republicans of 'palling around with terrorists' as a result, although they might accuse the right of hypocrisy in that situation.b,121b,121/font1
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b,121As I wrote on some earlier thread, I think Obama will destroy the American left. I think he will end up waging more war in Afghanistan and Pakistan and likely employ a Reagan doctrine throughout the Islamic world. I think this will happen regardless of the "real Obama" because he will be taking over the White House in the middle of a war and the consensus in the military, foreign service and intelligence agencies will likely prevail upon him. But this is just a guess. I don't know Obama. You don't know Obama. Before he became a national politician, he espoused a lot of views of the hard left and surrounded himself with hard left figures. It is a good thing that we will have a black president, but that accomplishment will be diminished if he did not win a contested election. Asking questions about past associations has been part of our political process since Jefferson's Republican-Democrat party printed pamphlets accusing John Adams of being a royalist because of his stint as a diplomat in France and a few things he wrote after the revolution. It is totally legitimate for McCain's campaign to raise this issue.
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font class="post"1b,121b,121there was nothing wrong with 'raising' it. it was raised. no meaningful connection was found. obama disagrees with his methods and believes that they were wrong. he was eight years old when ayers committed those crimes. what more is there to say about it, other than to remind everyone that OBAMA KNOWS SCARY PEOPLE? what is it you want to know, that you think will be 'found out' with more time spent mentioning ayers over and over and over?b,121b,121will you just admit that ayers is a TACTIC and not a legitimate argument against obama, please?
object width="425" height="344"1param name="movie" value=""1/param1param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"1/param1embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"1/embed1/object1b,121b,121are these 'whackadoos' just 'a few bad apples'?
b,121b,121Yes, it's real and the shit is about to hit le fan. AP just picked up the article. b,121b,121Feel free to let the creator of Obamabucks know how you really feel.b,121 b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121Chaffey Community Republican Women, Federatedb,121P.O. Box 974b,121Upland, CA 91785b,121Diane Fedele (President) [email]diane1354@mindspring.com[/email]b,121Phone: (909) 981-0493b,121Fax: (909) 982-6880b,121b,121h,121 b,121b,121
Oh, my peoples, it gets better: b,121b,121"Diane Fedele, the organization's president, took responsibility for the image and apologized "if it offended anyone."b,121b,121She meant it "to represent food, nothing else. I'm not a racist. I'm a German Jew whose (grandparents) had to leave Germany. Why would I be racist?"
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