Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121(And please spare us the "Big bad predatory lenders that took advantage of the poor ignorant homebuyers" sob stories....it was GREED all the way around....pure and simple) b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121So all those working class families looking for home loans above their credit rating were speculators? b,121b,121 b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121I didn't say they were all speculators...b,121b,121Greed: An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Bingo! If you were going to sum this whole thing up in one sentence, that was it. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121The demand...which has been there forever...isn't the problem. It's that the credit game is a pyramid scheme where: why not dole out fabricated paper loans that you can then sell for cash? b,121b,121You fools trying to blame homebuyers are merely TROLLS. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121So you are saying that people in general are living just as much within their means as people did say 15-20+ years ago?b,121b,121I don't think that you can deny that there has been a cultural shift go on in much of the developed world over the last 10 odd years that has placed increasing importance on material wealth.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121(And please spare us the "Big bad predatory lenders that took advantage of the poor ignorant homebuyers" sob stories....it was GREED all the way around....pure and simple) b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121So all those working class families looking for home loans above their credit rating were speculators? b,121b,121 b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121I didn't say they were all speculators...b,121b,121Greed: An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Bingo! If you were going to sum this whole thing up in one sentence, that was it. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121The demand...which has been there forever...isn't the problem. It's that the credit game is a pyramid scheme where: why not dole out fabricated paper loans that you can then sell for cash? b,121b,121You fools trying to blame homebuyers are merely TROLLS. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121So you are saying that people in general are living just as much within their means as people did say 15-20+ years ago?b,121b,121I don't think that you can deny that there has been a cultural shift go on in much of the developed world over the last 10 odd years that has placed increasing importance on material wealth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121If it was wealth that was growing, we wouldn't be having these problems. b,121b,121The difference from 20 years ago is that banks have been given the go-ahead to more than ever use phoney money filtered through the mortgage industry to turn a profit. b,121b,121Again, noone who initially issued these loans ever expected them to be paid in full. They just expected whatever chunk they could sell them off for...and then off to Aruba. b,121b,121That's why fools need to be taken down.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121I think the culpability is enough to go around but it's like when companies target people with deceptive pitches on credit cards and then, lo and behold, people get in trouble with credit. Sure, the end user owes responsibility but when you're specifically trying to pitch at low financial literacy targets, promising the moon, I think your level of responsibility is rather greater. That's why we (used to) have regulation on this sort of thing; for the safety of the greater system. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121I agree with most of this, except for the ratio of responsibility. Predatory lenders deserve a large portion, but no more than the borrowers. If you're going to borrow what is, in relation to your income, a massive amount of money, it is incumbent upon to you to do your homework in figuring out how the economics of the loan will work.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121(And please spare us the "Big bad predatory lenders that took advantage of the poor ignorant homebuyers" sob stories....it was GREED all the way around....pure and simple) b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121So all those working class families looking for home loans above their credit rating were speculators? b,121b,121 b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121I didn't say they were all speculators...b,121b,121Greed: An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Bingo! If you were going to sum this whole thing up in one sentence, that was it. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121The demand...which has been there forever...isn't the problem. It's that the credit game is a pyramid scheme where: why not dole out fabricated paper loans that you can then sell for cash? b,121b,121You fools trying to blame homebuyers are merely TROLLS. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121So you are saying that people in general are living just as much within their means as people did say 15-20+ years ago?b,121b,121I don't think that you can deny that there has been a cultural shift go on in much of the developed world over the last 10 odd years that has placed increasing importance on material wealth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121If it was wealth that was growing, we wouldn't be having these problems. b,121b,121The difference from 20 years ago is that banks have been given the go-ahead to more than ever use phoney money filtered through the mortgage industry to turn a profit. b,121b,121Again, noone who initially issued these loans ever expected them to be paid in full. They just expected whatever chunk they could sell them off for...and then off to Aruba. b,121b,121That's why fools need to be taken down. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121GREEDY MOFO'sb,121b,121Homebuyers who bet on 5 year low interest ARM'sb,121b,121Bankers who approved loans they knew they couldn't guarantee.b,121b,121Lending Institutions who allowed it to happen.b,121b,121Bail your own asses out.b,121b,121(And please spare us the "Big bad predatory lenders that took advantage of the poor ignorant homebuyers" sob stories....it was GREED all the way around....pure and simple)b,121b,121That is all. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Like all scams from "3 Card Monty" on up, it can't be pulled off unless the "mark" is greedy.b,121b,121They are all complicit.b,121b,121Greedy people taking advantage of other people's greed...eff 'em all.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121(And please spare us the "Big bad predatory lenders that took advantage of the poor ignorant homebuyers" sob stories....it was GREED all the way around....pure and simple) b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121So all those working class families looking for home loans above their credit rating were speculators? b,121b,121 b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121I didn't say they were all speculators...b,121b,121Greed: An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Bingo! If you were going to sum this whole thing up in one sentence, that was it. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121The demand...which has been there forever...isn't the problem. It's that the credit game is a pyramid scheme where: why not dole out fabricated paper loans that you can then sell for cash? b,121b,121You fools trying to blame homebuyers are merely TROLLS. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121So you are saying that people in general are living just as much within their means as people did say 15-20+ years ago?b,121b,121I don't think that you can deny that there has been a cultural shift go on in much of the developed world over the last 10 odd years that has placed increasing importance on material wealth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121If it was wealth that was growing, we wouldn't be having these problems. b,121b,121The difference from 20 years ago is that banks have been given the go-ahead to more than ever use phoney money filtered through the mortgage industry to turn a profit. b,121b,121Again, noone who initially issued these loans ever expected them to be paid in full. They just expected whatever chunk they could sell them off for...and then off to Aruba. b,121b,121That's why fools need to be taken down. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121I'm not arguing that wealth has grown. I'm saying that generally speaking material wealth has become much more important to people over the last 20 years. Once upon a time people didn't see it as so important to have a huge house and a nice car and a big tv.b,121b,121Now that a lot of people see these things as important they are tempted by loans they can't afford.b,121b,121I'm not for one second saying that the fast and loose practices of the banking sector should be condoned. Only that people should have probably thought twice about buying the house/car/tv/holiday they couldn't really afford.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121 Only those that DESERVE homes should own them. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Don't fret. In the post-governmental future, no one will own homes. The nomadic bands of marauders will set up camp around the local oases, sucking the land dry and preying upon those unfortunate enough to cross their paths.
Owing a home and material wealth are two distinct things. b,121b,121Look: we live in a society where home ownership confers any number of privileges, both material and cultural. It's been shoved into my head forever that I should try to buy a home (I'm currently a renter) and especially when it looks like everyone around you is buying, the pressure to join in only grows with that. It's a recipe that's just custom-made for predatory lending. b,121b,121Does that somehow lift the onus of responsibility from the consumer? Of course not; if someone's giving you 500,000 dollars that you know you can't pay off, you should think, "this is not a good idea." b,121b,121But even if responsibility is shared, I don't think it's shared in equal proportions.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121I think the culpability is enough to go around but it's like when companies target people with deceptive pitches on credit cards and then, lo and behold, people get in trouble with credit. Sure, the end user owes responsibility but when you're specifically trying to pitch at low financial literacy targets, promising the moon, I think your level of responsibility is rather greater. That's why we (used to) have regulation on this sort of thing; for the safety of the greater system. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121I agree with most of this, except for the ratio of responsibility. Predatory lenders deserve a large portion, but no more than the borrowers. If you're going to borrow what is, in relation to your income, a massive amount of money, it is incumbent upon to you to do your homework in figuring out how the economics of the loan will work. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Right...if you get into a variable rate loan and market forces work against you. Um, wait...don't the bankers essentially control the prime rate? b,121b,121Or how about, fine print that based upon contingency after contingency...if you fall behind on your payments at all, fees and raised interest rates are likely to keep you from ever catching up?b,121b,121Very clearly it's a losing proposition being pawned off on strapped homebuyers by these mortgage lenders. But when it's the only game in town...
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121I think the culpability is enough to go around but it's like when companies target people with deceptive pitches on credit cards and then, lo and behold, people get in trouble with credit. Sure, the end user owes responsibility but when you're specifically trying to pitch at low financial literacy targets, promising the moon, I think your level of responsibility is rather greater. That's why we (used to) have regulation on this sort of thing; for the safety of the greater system. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121I agree with most of this, except for the ratio of responsibility. Predatory lenders deserve a large portion, but no more than the borrowers. If you're going to borrow what is, in relation to your income, a massive amount of money, it is incumbent upon to you to do your homework in figuring out how the economics of the loan will work. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Right...if you get into a variable rate loan and market forces work against you. Um, wait...don't the bankers essentially control the prime rate? b,121b,121b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121It's the "sub-prime" loans and the idiots who either were too lazy or ignorant to look into what the prime rate was(and whether or not they could afford it) or spend 30 minutes at the local library reading up on what they were about to sign their life away on contractually.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121don't the bankers essentially control the prime rate? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121No.b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121Or how about, fine print that based upon contingency after contingency...if you fall behind on your payments at all, fees and raised interest rates are likely to keep you from ever catching up?b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121"Hmmmm, I'm about to borrow $500,000, oh what does this say down the bottom of the contract here. Ah never mind I couldn't really be bothered on reading up on something that is going to affect the next 25+ years of my life."b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121Very clearly it's a losing proposition being pawned off on strapped homebuyers by these mortgage lenders. But when it's the only game in town... b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121Yes and no. I think that there is most certianly blame to lay on both sides of this.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121(And please spare us the "Big bad predatory lenders that took advantage of the poor ignorant homebuyers" sob stories....it was GREED all the way around....pure and simple) b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121So all those working class families looking for home loans above their credit rating were speculators? b,121b,121 b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121I didn't say they were all speculators...b,121b,121Greed: An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Bingo! If you were going to sum this whole thing up in one sentence, that was it. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121The demand...which has been there forever...isn't the problem. It's that the credit game is a pyramid scheme where: why not dole out fabricated paper loans that you can then sell for cash? b,121b,121You fools trying to blame homebuyers are merely TROLLS. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121So you are saying that people in general are living just as much within their means as people did say 15-20+ years ago?b,121b,121I don't think that you can deny that there has been a cultural shift go on in much of the developed world over the last 10 odd years that has placed increasing importance on material wealth. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121People need to understand the mortgage system, and there are a lot of propgrams out there that help explain the system while helping people into home ownership, programs like NACA (http://www.naca.com/index_main.jsp) which STILL provides a low interest 30 year loan with no money down. It's a non-profit organization that works with lenders like BoA, but the rub is people have to qualify based on the same criteria as you would with other loans, plus it is for folks who otherwise don't own any other property and you have to live in the home you buy. In other words, you have to have decent credit, a job, solid history of paying bills,etc, you can get into a home without a $10-20k down payment. b,121b,121I knew people who went through some of the program when I did(through whom I bought my first house in 2002) and decided they would rather go with mortgage brokers who told them they could afford a $200-300k house on a single $45-60k a year salary combined with $10k in credit card and maybe a bit of a student loan. Well, guess what? That's nuts, you can't afford it, but lots of folks went that way in 2001-2004 because it was being done all over. It is a two way street, but I think it's worse for the brokers and bankers to offer what they KNOW people can't afford, than the people who of course are eager to hear that they CAN afford it, despite what they know not to be true. Some of these folks are probably still in their homes, but struggling, while others let the banks take them already.b,121b,121For those of you who do not own, but eventually want to buy, I cannot recommend NACA strongly enough. It will take a bit of time and effort on your part, but it is worth it. My first mortgage was a whole point below the going rate the day I signed, so I was paying 5% on a 30 year fixed loan. Look into it, but anyone buying a home in the next few years needs to get their credit game TIGHT no matter who you go with, and be real about what is affordable.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Owing a home and material wealth are two distinct things. b,121b,121Look: we live in a society where home ownership confers any number of privileges, both material and cultural. It's been shoved into my head forever that I should try to buy a home (I'm currently a renter) and especially when it looks like everyone around you is buying, the pressure to join in only grows with that. It's a recipe that's just custom-made for predatory lending. b,121b,121Does that somehow lift the onus of responsibility from the consumer? Of course not; if someone's giving you 500,000 dollars that you know you can't pay off, you should think, "this is not a good idea." b,121b,121But even if responsibility is shared, I don't think it's shared in equal proportions. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121Seriously??? So when Bubba goes down and put's 5 grand down on a Corvette that get's repossessed in 6 months when he can't make the payment you place most of the blame on the car salesman.....really??
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121I think the culpability is enough to go around but it's like when companies target people with deceptive pitches on credit cards and then, lo and behold, people get in trouble with credit. Sure, the end user owes responsibility but when you're specifically trying to pitch at low financial literacy targets, promising the moon, I think your level of responsibility is rather greater. That's why we (used to) have regulation on this sort of thing; for the safety of the greater system. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121I agree with most of this, except for the ratio of responsibility. Predatory lenders deserve a large portion, but no more than the borrowers. If you're going to borrow what is, in relation to your income, a massive amount of money, it is incumbent upon to you to do your homework in figuring out how the economics of the loan will work. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121In an ideal world? Sure. In a world where the consumer sees the lender as an equal, rather than an authority figure? Sure. But we don't live in that environment. b,121b,121Look: we can go back and forth on the "ratio of responsibility" and disagree on where that marker should be set. I think what we can say is that the difference here is that banks and mortgage lenders were certainly MORE INFORMED that their loans were bunk as Fusk. They can't claim ignorance in the way that a borrower can. So while it's true that a society of more financially literate people wouldn't take on loans they don't have confidence they can pay back, it also stands that the people who actually know what they are doing in this equation shouldn't be trying to get over either. We're not talking about equal players in the relationship.b,121b,121Regardless, this is all some chickens-coming-home-to-roost shit. Except now we're all paying for this bullshit. b,121b,121Thanks Phil Gramm!
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
For many, the contract being signed is too involved not to have it broken down by a lawyer/expert. b,121b,121Of course this is the fault of the homebuyers, especially those who are uneducated or even speak a foreign language to begin with.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121Owing a home and material wealth are two distinct things. b,121b,121Look: we live in a society where home ownership confers any number of privileges, both material and cultural. It's been shoved into my head forever that I should try to buy a home (I'm currently a renter) and especially when it looks like everyone around you is buying, the pressure to join in only grows with that. It's a recipe that's just custom-made for predatory lending. b,121b,121Does that somehow lift the onus of responsibility from the consumer? Of course not; if someone's giving you 500,000 dollars that you know you can't pay off, you should think, "this is not a good idea." b,121b,121But even if responsibility is shared, I don't think it's shared in equal proportions. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121Seriously??? So when Bubba goes down and put's 5 grand down on a Corvette that get's repossessed in 6 months when he can't make the payment you place most of the blame on the car salesman.....really?? b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,1211. Shit happens. 2. Don't loan money you can't afford to lose.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121 Only those that DESERVE homes should own them. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Don't fret. In the post-governmental future, no one will own homes. The nomadic bands of marauders will set up camp around the local oases, sucking the land dry and preying upon those unfortunate enough to cross their paths. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121b,121That's off the fusking chain grid, yo.b,121b,121b,121why doesn't my strikethrough work?b,121b,121how cans i amke jokes?b,121b,121b,121jokes
Quote:/font1h,121b,121For many, the contract being signed is too involved not to have it broken down by a lawyer/expert. b,121b,121Of course this is the fault of the homebuyers, especially those who are uneducated or even speak a foreign language to begin with. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121I won't argue with you that, yes there are many people in this boat - and that the support systems for people like this to get good independent advice are dubious at best. But I wouldn't say it is a stretch to assume that at least as many, and probably more fall into the category were greed trumps common sense.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,1211. Shit happens. 2. Don't loan money you can't afford to lose. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121The reason for this whole mess lies a large degree to the fact that the institutions didn't know they were loaning money they couldn't afford to lose; due to the structural deficiencies in the system. If you believe that all of the debts you hold are good, then you can feel confident in holding some more. Then when all of a sudden it is revealed that many of the debts you hold are no good, then you are in the shit.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121For many, the contract being signed is too involved not to have it broken down by a lawyer/expert. b,121b,121Of course this is the fault of the homebuyers, especially those who are uneducated or even speak a foreign language to begin with. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Every city I've ever lived in had free legal help for first time home buyers.b,121b,121I'm sure they have this in Austin as well....b,121b,121b1One of the City of Fort Worth's housing goals is to help residents realize the American dream of homeownership. To achieve this goal, the City's Housing Department, through its Housing Services and Information Division (HS&I), has provided comprehensive housing counseling services and homeownership training since 1994. HS&I has been a HUD-approved housing counseling agency since 1997. This program compliments the City's Homebuyers' Assistance Program which provides closing cost and down payment assistance to first-time homebuyers. In 2005, HS&I provided 1,866 one-on-one counseling services and homeownership training to 507 homebuyers. [/b]
Quote:/font1h,121b,121The reason for this whole mess lies a large degree to the fact that the institutions didn't know they were loaning money they couldn't afford to lose; due to the structural deficiencies in the system.mental and moral compasses. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21b,121b,121I like the thesis that it was a massive state of denial caused by blinding greed.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121The reason for this whole mess lies a large degree to the fact that the institutions didn't know they were loaning money they couldn't afford to lose; due to the structural deficiencies in the system.mental and moral compasses. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21b,121b,121I like the thesis that it was a massive state of denial caused by blinding greed. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/snapgraem26wuch9.gif" alt="" 21b,121b,121but were the structual deficiencies not a product of deficiences in the mental and moral compass?!!
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121For many, the contract being signed is too involved not to have it broken down by a lawyer/expert. b,121b,121Of course this is the fault of the homebuyers, especially those who are uneducated or even speak a foreign language to begin with. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121I won't argue with you that, yes there are many people in this boat - and that the support systems for people like this to get good independent advice are dubious at best. But I wouldn't say it is a stretch to assume that at least as many, and probably more fall into the category were greed trumps common sense. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Okay, if you really want to talk cultural ish. It's really less greed and more perceived birthright. As Oliver mentioned, it's just something that gets hammered into your head growing up in America...owning a home is one of the incidental details of how you are supposed to conduct yourself as an adult in America. And if you don't fit the bill, you've got some explaining to do. b,121b,121But again, is this something that the public hammers into its own heads? Or is it something that is taught in institutions and supported by predatory banks/the backbone of our society.b,121b,121And yes, the bankers do artificially sway the markets here. The Federal Reserve isn't even a government institution. It's a bunch of consultants who always seem to know exactly how to keep their own pockets fat at the expense of others.b,121b,121For real, America is every bit the meat grinder to its own citizens as it is to those overseas. Certains kids are tracked straight to prison. And while you could say that the crimes they eventually commit are indeed their own responsibility, if everything is funneling them towards doing that bad, as if its a fate that could never be averted, then it becomes very difficult to place the blame on that now-criminal when in reality he never had much of a chance to do otherwise.b,121b,121To buy a home nowadays, you gotta go through a mortgage company. And they are a bunch of sheisters by definition. Internalizing any fall-out from a bad relationship with them is unnecessary. They are scum...you just happened to fall into their trap...end of story. b,121b,121Ain't no fairness here sliding downhill, so there damned straight ain't going to be any passed uphill, especially not for the benefit of snakes and career vacationers.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121The reason for this whole mess lies a large degree to the fact that the institutions didn't know they were loaning money they couldn't afford to lose; due to the structural deficiencies in the system.mental and moral compasses. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" 21b,121b,121I like the thesis that it was a massive state of denial caused by blinding greed. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121now i finally know how to strike
I hate to tell you, but it is like that in most of the developed world to one degree or another.b,121b,121The debate over how a culture of consumerism that reinforced the 'need' to own a home is a complex one that is beyond the scope of this thread. But at least we agree that it does exist, and that it is a factor in current crisis.b,121b,121In regards to the Federal Reserve not being a government institution. It is like that most everywhere in the world. The last thing that you want is a central bank that is controlled by the government; an independent central bank is crucial to a functioning economy. If you don't have that then you just end up with a government adjusting rates for political purposes, rather than for what is best for the economy/country.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121I hate to tell you, but it is like that in most of the developed world to one degree or another.b,121b,121The debate over how a culture of consumerism that reinforced the 'need' to own a home is a complex one that is beyond the scope of this thread. But at least we agree that it does exist, and that it is a factor in current crisis.b,121b,121In regards to the Federal Reserve not being a government institution. It is like that most everywhere in the world. The last thing that you want is a central bank that is controlled by the government; an independent central bank is crucial to a functioning economy. If you don't have that then you just end up with a government adjusting rates for political purposes, rather than for what is best for the economy/country. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121But the Fed doesn't typically do what's best for the economy. It does what's best for its own private agenda. Plus, when you are dealing with fiat money...it gives a non-elected institution far too much power to essentially play economic god.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Owing a home and material wealth are two distinct things. b,121b,121Look: we live in a society where home ownership confers any number of privileges, both material and cultural. It's been shoved into my head forever that I should try to buy a home (I'm currently a renter) and especially when it looks like everyone around you is buying, the pressure to join in only grows with that. It's a recipe that's just custom-made for predatory lending. b,121b,121Does that somehow lift the onus of responsibility from the consumer? Of course not; if someone's giving you 500,000 dollars that you know you can't pay off, you should think, "this is not a good idea." b,121b,121But even if responsibility is shared, I don't think it's shared in equal proportions. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121The pressure is incredible. If I had a nickel for every time someone said I was throwing money away renting, I???d be in a mansion now. I have never wanted to be a homeowner ??? always saw it as a yoke and am a great believer in not having anything you can???t afford. I also hate the idea that my life would be directly linked to a bank. But I have finally caved and unless it all falls apart, we start moving into a supercute bungalow in an amazing neighbourhood at the end of the month. It finally came down to it being the lesser of two evils (the other being us killing our fellow tenants).b,121b,121I tried to stay on the thin line of trusting my account manager to do his best for me and knowing the bank is not my friend - even though I have been with them since I was a kid and have all my other accounts (RRSPS and credit card) there. After numerous fights for the best rate and them trying to get me to reduce my down-payment when the house came in at a much lower price than the original mortgage, it is clear I am going into every conversation with them on my own. During one of the rates negotiations, the account manager actually had the balls to look me in the eye and say that the bank also has to break even. I lost my shit and told him to not even say those words to me given the billions they make every year. I got terms that make it so I can switch to another instituiton without any penalites or fees as soon as I find a better rate.b,121b,121I am lucky to have the knowledge of my parents as a guide and having an idea of what questions to ask and actually having the time to do the homework. Not everyone has these luxuries.b,121b,121I have nothing but ill feelings about banks and credit companies and even I went in optimistic and thinking someone would be on my side. I can see how less suspicious people with no support and greater aspirations of owning a home could get into a very ugly situation.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121But the Fed doesn't typically do what's best for the economy. It does what's best for its own private agenda. Plus, when you are dealing with fiat money...it gives a non-elected institution far too much power to essentially play economic god. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Is the lack of transparency that bad that the Fed can follow it's own private agenda though? (this is a serious question, as i don't really know that well)b,121b,121I guess you could argue that a central bank is elected by proxy (in that it is appointed by the government - is this the case in the US?). But that said, would you prefer the govt controlling interest rates, or an independent body? I'll go for independent body every time - I don't want to see situations where lowing interest rates in the lead up to elections in order to buy votes starts happening.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121But the Fed doesn't typically do what's best for the economy. It does what's best for its own private agenda. Plus, when you are dealing with fiat money...it gives a non-elected institution far too much power to essentially play economic god. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Is the lack of transparency that bad that the Fed can follow it's own private agenda though? (this is a serious question, as i don't really know that well)b,121b,121I guess you could argue that a central bank is elected by proxy (in that it is appointed by the government - is this the case in the US?). But that said, would you prefer the govt controlling interest rates, or an independent body? I'll go for independent body every time - I don't want to see situations where lowing interest rates in the lead up to elections in order to buy votes starts happening. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121For the US at this point, forget private vs. central. Anyone with even a small smattering of ethics would do.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121The debate over how a culture of consumerism that reinforced the 'need' to own a home is a complex one that is beyond the scope of this thread. But at least we agree that it does exist, and that it is a factor in current crisis.b,121 b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Exactly. I don't want to overstate that point but c'mon - most of how any society, especially non-dictatorship ones, dominate is through IDEOLOGY, not through the barrel of a gun. And ideologically, we live in a society where historically, I>property ownership was practically a pre-requisite to citizenship[/i]. Think about the numerous, material privileges that come with home ownership, not to mention social privileges. Lenders know this; they I>bank on it[/i] except, in this case, they over-reached. b,121b,121By the way, this was posted before, but I thought this was a good primer for non-economists on how we go to where we are. a href="http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=355" target="_blank"1http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=355/a1
Comments
chaingrid, yo.b,121b,121b,121why doesn't my strikethrough work?b,121b,121how cans i amke jokes?b,121b,121b,121jokesnow i finally know how to strike