whats happened in the last few days is the media frame has become more clinton friendly - the media is buying 'the media gives obama a free ride' whether its true or not
the nafta story is 100% newsworthy. its a major issue for voters in ohio and goes to his credibility, considering his tone at the debate.
Is there some more information about this Canada-Nafta thing I could read up. The story i just saw sort ended up saying it was a Canadian-Right-Wing conspiracy sort of thing. Trying to influence elections in favor of conservatives over here...
plus got him on the defensive about the nafta thing - which is a short term problem vs. hillary's ACTUAL ENDORSEMENT of NAFTA. Even Ohioans recognize that Hillary is worse on NAFTA than obama is according to polling
you have a real bad habit of editorializing news stories that you haven't even read.
worse on nafta? that's what you think the "nafta thing" is about. go read today's nyt or any other reputable newspaper and then come back and comment.
plus got him on the defensive about the nafta thing - which is a short term problem vs. hillary's ACTUAL ENDORSEMENT of NAFTA. Even Ohioans recognize that Hillary is worse on NAFTA than obama is according to polling
you have a real bad habit of editorializing news stories that you haven't even read.
worse on nafta? that's what you think the "nafta thing" is about. go read today's nyt or any other reputable newspaper and then come back and comment.
you are a retard - im not saying she actually IS worse on nafta (her and obama's opinions are virtually identical - at least today). I'm talking about public perception and public opinion polls have repeatedly shown that voters dont think very fondly of clinton's position on nafta and generally believe that obama has the high ground on the issue
these polls were done before this fake canada bullshit but thats a real short term narrative
Obama talked tough about pulling out at the debate, trying to outdo Hillary. Bad move.
Hillary has absolutely ZERO credibility on this issue. Her record is muddled with pro-NAFTA statements and her husband PASSED IT INTO LAW. And, unless I'm mistaken, her time at the white house doing things like PASSING NAFTA is part of that big experience bat she's swinging.
The conservative Canadians are trying to spin this towards the Republicans. They see both Democrats as being soft on this issue.
Obama messed up AGAIN by telling the Canadians that this was just tough talk - despite being the honest truth, he should've stood up for what he believed in at the debate. Scrapping or renegotiating NAFTA is not the answer for Ohio, it's just an easy target... he said more worthwhile things on this issue earlier in the campaign when it was framed as an immigration issue - stating that loss of jobs wasn't due to the arrival of Mexicans but due to American companies' choices.
So what we have is a backtracking Obama campaign, and cred-less Clinton campaign, and a Republican nominee who's sitting back and laughing.
you are a retard - im not saying she actually IS worse on nafta (her and obama's opinions are virtually identical - at least today). I'm talking about public perception and public opinion polls have repeatedly shown that voters dont think very fondly of clinton's position on nafta and generally believe that obama has the high ground on the issue
these polls were done before this fake canada bullshit but thats a real short term narrative
stop playing yourself. you came in here rambling about how the media is being unfair and "the nafta thing" is not newsworthy, right? this "fake canada bullshit" has nothing to do with what yesterday's polls showed about who the people of ohio think is "worse on nafta". that is completely irrelevant.
are you going to admit that you didn't know anything about the nafta story before you dismissed it as being bullshit?
Is there some more information about this Canada-Nafta thing I could read up. The story i just saw sort ended up saying it was a Canadian-Right-Wing conspiracy sort of thing. Trying to influence elections in favor of conservatives over here...
Not sure what you've seen so far, but this is from today's Globe and Mail
Obama messed up AGAIN by telling the Canadians that this was just tough talk - despite being the honest truth, he should've stood up for what he believed in at the debate. Scrapping or renegotiating NAFTA is not the answer for Ohio, it's just an easy target... he said more worthwhile things on this issue earlier in the campaign when he framed it as an immigration issue - stating that loss of jobs wasn't due to the arrival of Mexicans but due to American companies' choices.
Dude the problems with nafta aren't because of the arrival mexicans, its because american companies move the jobs to mexico - thats what obama's been saying consistently this whole time
and obama never told canadians "btw just chill, i'm totally doing this to win votes" - thats what the manipulation is here. His economic advisor goolsbee was contacted by the canadian consulate because they were inquiring about the obama campaign stance, and he said - as quoted by someone in the meeting, supposedly - that obama's stance on nafta ???should be viewed as more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans.???
???At no point did anyone in our campaign convey to anyone that there had been any backing away from Obama???s position on Nafta,??? a campaign spokesman, Bill Burton, said Monday.
Obama messed up AGAIN by telling the Canadians that this was just tough talk - despite being the honest truth, he should've stood up for what he believed in at the debate. Scrapping or renegotiating NAFTA is not the answer for Ohio, it's just an easy target... he said more worthwhile things on this issue earlier in the campaign when he framed it as an immigration issue - stating that loss of jobs wasn't due to the arrival of Mexicans but due to American companies' choices.
Dude the problems with nafta aren't because of the arrival mexicans, its because american companies move the jobs to mexico - thats what obama's been saying consistently this whole time
I know - I'm agreeing with you.
But renegotiating NAFTA won't bring those jobs back - especially the great majority of them that aren't even on the North American continent anymore.
???On Nafta Goolsbee suggested that Obama is less about fundamentally changing the agreement and more in favor of strengthening/clarifying language on labor mobility and environment and trying to establish these as more ???core??? principles of the agreement.???
Maybe this is the start of the smear campaign against Obama. REPs believe that he's going to be the DEM candidate and they have started.
I love how in the WP article said "the acknowledgment that a top Obama aide had discussed NAFTA with a Canadian official".
Smells of bullshit. The Canadian official works for the conservative party. I somehow doubt a so called "Top Obama aide" is really holding down talks with the conservatives and giving them knowledge into what they have planned.
talking about NAFTA is only a small part in the broader context of whether or not the US Government should have trade protections on manufactured goods. The answer is no. That shit has come and gone. I don't think any president for or against NAFTA could do a damn thing to turn that tide.
Hillary has absolutely ZERO credibility on this issue. Her record is muddled with pro-NAFTA statements and her husband PASSED IT INTO LAW. And, unless I'm mistaken, her time at the white house doing things like PASSING NAFTA is part of that big experience bat she's swinging.
nafta is not a black and white issue...by any stretch, so the fact that she supported it in the 90s and has problems with it in 2008 does not a say a thing about her credibility.
nafta was a good idea but bush f*cked it up. the jobs that we lose via nafta are the shitty, non-skilled jobs. clinton planned to uplift these workers into higher skilled jobs through government assistance, job training, etc. moreover, the idea that the US is/was going to isolate ourselves from an increasing global economy is absurd. is it feasible that we are just going to tax everyone outside of the us just so our non-skilled workers don't get outsourced? how will that bode for our exports that now have higher costs? i'm not saying NAFTA is perfect, but please with the "hillary is a flip-flopper" talk. that is bullshit. the global economy of 2008 does not mirror the global economy of the 90s, nor did we have Bill Clinton to see Nafta through past 2000, and make whatever changes he had to on the fly.
talking about NAFTA is only a small part in the broader context of whether or not the US Government should have trade protections on manufactured goods. The answer is no. That shit has come and gone. I don't think any president for or against NAFTA could do a damn thing to turn that tide.
but pander on...
right, and obama's criticisms of nafta, as articulated both in goolsbee's meeting and on the campaign trail, has been that nafta needs to be altered in order to offer environmental and employment protections
which has also been hillary's position, to the extent that obama cosigned hillary's statements about nafta during the debate!
Smells of bullshit. The Canadian official works for the conservative party. I somehow doubt a so called "Top Obama aide" is really holding down talks with the conservatives and giving them knowledge into what they have planned.
Aren't the Canadian conservatives basically like the middle-left American Democrats? Just curious.
Smells of bullshit. The Canadian official works for the conservative party. I somehow doubt a so called "Top Obama aide" is really holding down talks with the conservatives and giving them knowledge into what they have planned.
Aren't the Canadian conservatives basically like the middle-left American Democrats? Just curious.
Hillary will not win in Tex and Ohio will be extremely close. Party leaders will call on her to step aside to make way for the next POTUS.
Despite a marked shift in the media's tone, on NPR this morning, I was still hearing about lots of empty seats at Hillary rallies this week. I'm hoping the jig is up, and that some more Democratic heavyweights step up tomorrow with unity talk.
She'll still be pretty behind tomorrow morning no matter what right?
Smells of bullshit. The Canadian official works for the conservative party. I somehow doubt a so called "Top Obama aide" is really holding down talks with the conservatives and giving them knowledge into what they have planned.
Aren't the Canadian conservatives basically like the middle-left American Democrats? Just curious.
obama's stance on nafta ???should be viewed as more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans.???
And yes, this is a problem.
and this is no different to the pandering that is done in Iowa about ethonol (i.e. it actually makes very little economic sense, but it wins votes).
Both Obama and Hillary are speaking out of their ass when it comes to NAFTA. They both know it has created more winners than losers across the board, but because it happens that the losers are many in the rust-belt states, we now have to suffer through their horrible economic policies regarding free-trade which I doubt both actually believe.
Here's a pretty solid article in yesterdays FT about the NAFTA/Free-Trade argument. FYI, it sides with Obama.
What is interesting, is that their free-trade speak could really paint them into a corner with the General Election, and had it not been for this ongoing race (i.e. had Super Tuesday actually decided something) this type of politik-speak may not have needed to been brought up.
And that's another problem to this ongoing race for the Dem nomination. The longer these two go at it, the more they will have to pander to certain left ideals and the more that will paint them into a corner when the general election comes around.
Comments
the nafta story is 100% newsworthy. its a major issue for voters in ohio and goes to his credibility, considering his tone at the debate.
The story i just saw sort ended up saying it was a Canadian-Right-Wing conspiracy sort of thing. Trying to influence elections in favor of conservatives over here...
Gotta make the donuts. 11-8. Stuck like Chuck.
you have a real bad habit of editorializing news stories that you haven't even read.
worse on nafta? that's what you think the "nafta thing" is about. go read today's nyt or any other reputable newspaper and then come back and comment.
these polls were done before this fake canada bullshit but thats a real short term narrative
One month ago: "It's a wrap, batches - Obama has this, Hillary fall back."
Today: "Hillary has this on lock."
Obama talked tough about pulling out at the debate, trying to outdo Hillary. Bad move.
Hillary has absolutely ZERO credibility on this issue. Her record is muddled with pro-NAFTA statements and her husband PASSED IT INTO LAW. And, unless I'm mistaken, her time at the white house doing things like PASSING NAFTA is part of that big experience bat she's swinging.
The conservative Canadians are trying to spin this towards the Republicans. They see both Democrats as being soft on this issue.
Obama messed up AGAIN by telling the Canadians that this was just tough talk - despite being the honest truth, he should've stood up for what he believed in at the debate. Scrapping or renegotiating NAFTA is not the answer for Ohio, it's just an easy target... he said more worthwhile things on this issue earlier in the campaign when it was framed as an immigration issue - stating that loss of jobs wasn't due to the arrival of Mexicans but due to American companies' choices.
So what we have is a backtracking Obama campaign, and cred-less Clinton campaign, and a Republican nominee who's sitting back and laughing.
The only winner here is McCain. Let's move on.
stop playing yourself. you came in here rambling about how the media is being unfair and "the nafta thing" is not newsworthy, right? this "fake canada bullshit" has nothing to do with what yesterday's polls showed about who the people of ohio think is "worse on nafta". that is completely irrelevant.
are you going to admit that you didn't know anything about the nafta story before you dismissed it as being bullshit?
do you work at Maxim?
Do you even know what "wizening up" means?
Not sure what you've seen so far, but this is from today's Globe and Mail
and obama never told canadians "btw just chill, i'm totally doing this to win votes" - thats what the manipulation is here. His economic advisor goolsbee was contacted by the canadian consulate because they were inquiring about the obama campaign stance, and he said - as quoted by someone in the meeting, supposedly - that obama's stance on nafta ???should be viewed as more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans.???
i've read everything about that nafta bullshit and its a fake story
incidently if anyone's wondering, Intrade prediction markets are still giving Obama an 80%-20% advantage over hillary for the nomination
I know - I'm agreeing with you.
But renegotiating NAFTA won't bring those jobs back - especially the great majority of them that aren't even on the North American continent anymore.
And yes, this is a problem.
I love how in the WP article said "the acknowledgment that a top Obama aide had discussed NAFTA with a Canadian official".
Smells of bullshit. The Canadian official works for the conservative party. I somehow doubt a so called "Top Obama aide" is really holding down talks with the conservatives and giving them knowledge into what they have planned.
but pander on...
nafta is not a black and white issue...by any stretch, so the fact that she supported it in the 90s and has problems with it in 2008 does not a say a thing about her credibility.
nafta was a good idea but bush f*cked it up. the jobs that we lose via nafta are the shitty, non-skilled jobs. clinton planned to uplift these workers into higher skilled jobs through government assistance, job training, etc. moreover, the idea that the US is/was going to isolate ourselves from an increasing global economy is absurd. is it feasible that we are just going to tax everyone outside of the us just so our non-skilled workers don't get outsourced? how will that bode for our exports that now have higher costs? i'm not saying NAFTA is perfect, but please with the "hillary is a flip-flopper" talk. that is bullshit. the global economy of 2008 does not mirror the global economy of the 90s, nor did we have Bill Clinton to see Nafta through past 2000, and make whatever changes he had to on the fly.
which has also been hillary's position, to the extent that obama cosigned hillary's statements about nafta during the debate!
I understand the underlying issue here, but this is being blown way out of proportion.
Aren't the Canadian conservatives basically like the middle-left American Democrats? Just curious.
NO
Despite a marked shift in the media's tone, on NPR this morning, I was still hearing about lots of empty seats at Hillary rallies this week. I'm hoping the jig is up, and that some more Democratic heavyweights step up tomorrow with unity talk.
She'll still be pretty behind tomorrow morning no matter what right?
Even more so when they do this type of bullshit.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080229.wculture29/BNStory/National/home
and this is no different to the pandering that is done in Iowa about ethonol (i.e. it actually makes very little economic sense, but it wins votes).
Both Obama and Hillary are speaking out of their ass when it comes to NAFTA. They both know it has created more winners than losers across the board, but because it happens that the losers are many in the rust-belt states, we now have to suffer through their horrible economic policies regarding free-trade which I doubt both actually believe.
Here's a pretty solid article in yesterdays FT about the NAFTA/Free-Trade argument. FYI, it sides with Obama.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f24fa1c4-e92b-11dc-8365-0000779fd2ac.html
What is interesting, is that their free-trade speak could really paint them into a corner with the General Election, and had it not been for this ongoing race (i.e. had Super Tuesday actually decided something) this type of politik-speak may not have needed to been brought up.
And that's another problem to this ongoing race for the Dem nomination. The longer these two go at it, the more they will have to pander to certain left ideals and the more that will paint them into a corner when the general election comes around.