California Heads - Thoughts on Indian Gaming?

phongonephongone 1,652 Posts
edited February 2008 in Strut Central
Not that I endorse gambling, but I fully support the initiative to expand Indian gaming in California. Moral issues aside (hey, the lottery is state-endorsed gambling), the initiative is a win-win. The tribes continue to get paid (long overdue) and gambling revenue is taxed and go to the State. And to top it off, smaller tribes who don't have casinos get some revenues.What's crazy is the amount of money being spent by Las Vegas interests and the card rooms in LA to stop this initiative. I counted about 3 anti-indian gaming commercials during the SuperBowl -- that's big money advertisement during the biggest sporting event of the year. And what's a bigger travesty is that these ads supposedly feature members of smaller tribes who are against the expansion (complete with faux-turtle necklaces and feather earrings). Don't believe the hype. Thoughts? Does anyone care?
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  • And what's a bigger travesty is that these ads supposedly feature members of smaller tribes who are against the expansion (complete with faux-turtle necklaces and feather earrings).

    dude I'm pretty sure those are actual members of smaller tribes who are against the expansion. and you seem like quite the expert on turtle and feather jewelry....

  • To be taken on a case by case basis. This one is much more complex than it appears.

  • im not too versed in this whole voting thing but im pretty sure these props will benefit the larger more organized, more established [in the gambling world], tribes. vegas has backed the smaller tribes because it is in their [vegas'] best interest.

    from what i gather the rich get richer the poor get poorer. nothing new.

    im not about to discount the morality issue either, especially since gambling addiction is prolly thee biggest addiction problem [well, save shabu] in the asian community. government sanctoined dopamine.

  • dayday 9,611 Posts
    And what's a bigger travesty is that these ads supposedly feature members of smaller tribes who are against the expansion (complete with faux-turtle necklaces and feather earrings).

    dude I'm pretty sure those are actual members of smaller tribes who are against the expansion.

    What makes you say that?

  • phongonephongone 1,652 Posts
    And what's a bigger travesty is that these ads supposedly feature members of smaller tribes who are against the expansion (complete with faux-turtle necklaces and feather earrings).

    dude I'm pretty sure those are actual members of smaller tribes who are against the expansion. and you seem like quite the expert on turtle and feather jewelry....

    Ah rootlesscoz, i love your relentless need to take the counter position. No doubt, there are some members of smaller tribes who oppose the initiative, but look at the small print on those ads against it -- you'll see that mostly gaming interests are sponsoring the ads, not any specific small tribe.

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,902 Posts
    I think tribes should do whatever the hell they want. I also think as many tribes as possible should come together and take the money they make and set up paid for schools making as many tribe members as possible skilled workers for setting up things like their own banking institutions, tech companies, etc. Making every tribe member part owner in the ventures.

    Tax havens on every reserve across North America would be nice!

  • And what's a bigger travesty is that these ads supposedly feature members of smaller tribes who are against the expansion (complete with faux-turtle necklaces and feather earrings).

    dude I'm pretty sure those are actual members of smaller tribes who are against the expansion. and you seem like quite the expert on turtle and feather jewelry....

    Ah rootlesscoz, i love your relentless need to take the counter position. No doubt, there are some members of smaller tribes who oppose the initiative, but look at the small print on those ads against it -- you'll see that mostly gaming interests are sponsoring the ads, not any specific small tribe.

    hahaha hey I'm not sure where I stand on this one. but those were most likely real Native Americans who are really against this initiative. they may have motives for opposing this prop that you don't happen to agree with, but that's no reason to question their ethnic "credentials."

    if this were purely a "big Vegas casino establishment" versus "depressed Indian communities" battle I don't think there'd be a need for this thread.

    but clearly it isn't that simple.

  • look at it this way. no one is building shit unless the gov says so. the gov lets a few tribes build casinos on their own land. some become very successful. props are passed so that these successful casinos can continue to fluorish under government control and regulation while others are stymied or even not allowed flat out [im not sure about this tho].

    im not sure on the details other than that. but it sounds like government instituted monopolies on gaming.

    like i said earlier, the rich stay rich, the poor get poorer or whatevers.

    its tainted by the hands of even bigger casinos from vegas who dont want this because it would mean competition at a subsidized rate. thats who's bankrolling those commercials.

  • BsidesBsides 4,244 Posts
    what tribe is larry flynt from?

  • what tribe is larry flynt from?

    thats a card room. not a casino.

  • BsidesBsides 4,244 Posts
    what tribe is larry flynt from?

    thats a card room. not a casino.


    my bad, whats the difference?

  • no "house"

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Sure has been a boom for oldies acts, mid level comedians and CCR cover bands.

  • Sure has been a boom for oldies acts, mid level comedians and CCR cover bands.

    Every new month on my drive home, I get treated to a new has-been on the local casino billboard.

  • waxjunkywaxjunky 1,848 Posts
    gambling revenue is taxed and goes to the State

    Will account for 1% of the state budget. That's either a little or a lot, depending on how you look at it.

  • phongonephongone 1,652 Posts
    I think tribes should do whatever the hell they want. I also think as many tribes as possible should come together and take the money they make and set up paid for schools making as many tribe members as possible skilled workers for setting up things like their own banking institutions, tech companies, etc. Making every tribe member part owner in the ventures.

    Tax havens on every reserve across North America would be nice!


    Hell yeah!

  • dayday 9,611 Posts
    gambling revenue is taxed and goes to the State

    Will account for 1% of the state budget. That's either a little or a lot, depending on how you look at it.

    Considering the current fiscal situation of CA., I'd say million$ of non-taxpayer dollars is a good thing.

    Just so we're clear here, the compacts of these 4 tribes are up for renegotiation. Other tribes will have the same opportunity to do so when the time comes.
    Some of the tribes that oppose these propositions are doing so because it directly competes with their own casino ( Pala/Pechanga).

    If anyone opposes these propositions I'd really like to know why. I'm always baffled when I hear people bitching about what the tribes do when in reality it has almost no direct effect on their lives. I've seen more of a negative effect on some tribal members more than anything. The tribe here (Agua Caliente) donates millions every year to other tribes who are less fortunate and to the city as well.

  • If anyone opposes these propositions I'd really like to know why. I'm always baffled when I hear people bitching about what the tribes do when in reality it has almost no direct effect on their lives. I've seen more of a negative effect on some tribal members more than anything. The tribe here (Agua Caliente) donates millions every year to other tribes who are less fortunate and to the city as well.

    What do you expect? Native Americans have been treated worse than any other race by the hands of white colonialism. A lot of white people see this land as our land.

    You'd be amazed by the bloodshed around my neck of the woods regarding spearfishing and netting rights. Some white outdoorsmen froth at the mouth over the abuse of "their" lakes, waiting at landings with their racist goon squads, threatening to kill Native Americans.

  • If anyone opposes these propositions I'd really like to know why. I'm always baffled when I hear people bitching about what the tribes do when in reality it has almost no direct effect on their lives. I've seen more of a negative effect on some tribal members more than anything. The tribe here (Agua Caliente) donates millions every year to other tribes who are less fortunate and to the city as well.

    honestly, im not voting so it really doesnt concern me either way. but to say that it doesnt directly effect anyone's life is not true.

    let me put it to you this way. have you ever walked into a casino and NOT seen a million and one chinese tourists? there are vietnamese, chinese, pilipino, korean and japanese CHARTER BUSES that go specifically to these casinos on a direct route. im not trying to take any sort of moral high ground here, but those casinos have a huge effect on the asian community and lives are most definitely ruined. does that put these tribes directly at fault? i dont think so. i dont hate the player, i hate the game.

  • phongonephongone 1,652 Posts
    Word to the epidemic of asian gambling. Lots of my peoples are definitely shitting their lives away playing Pai Gow. But hey, like you said, it ain't the indians that are the problem...

    Kind of timely issue because it is close to the Asian New Year and asians will be heading to the casinos in drove. Gong Hi Fat Choy or whatever.

  • haha! i heard kenny rogers' barona now accepts lai see!


  • haha! i heard kenny rogers' barona now accepts lai see!



    This post made my day.

  • from what i gather the rich get richer the poor get poorer. nothing new.
    it's also really troubling to me that these props make exemptions for california environmental protection laws. and the labor unions oppose them bc there's nothing to guarantee rights for the casino workers. no money is guaranteed for the schools and there's no language in the propositions that says how much money goes to the state.

  • dayday 9,611 Posts
    from what i gather the rich get richer the poor get poorer. nothing new.

    it's also really troubling to me that these props make exemptions for california environmental protection laws.

    I don't know about other tribes, but AC (Agua Caliente) has Environmental Impact Studies that are done openly with the city.

    and the labor unions oppose them bc there's nothing to guarantee rights for the casino workers.

    The Union are glorified extortionists. They've been trying to get people to unionize since '95 when the casinos first opened and have gone so far as to harass employees by phone and show up to their homes uninvited. All they're concerned with is getting dues from the largest employer in the city. I won't say the tribe is perfect (some employees reviews for a raise were a year overdue when I worked there), but overall they go far beyond what most employers do. They pay for workers to go to school, to learn English and/or advance in whatever trade they're in, they have one of the best insurance set ups I've ever seen, etc.

    no money is guaranteed for the schools and there's no language in the propositions that says how much money goes to the state.

    Doesn't that responsibility fall on the state? And as far as how much money goes to them, I think it's 25% of annual revenue. It should all be laid out in the propositions.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Collective bargaining insures better working conditions, benefits and pay. The dues are to cover the costs of organizing, collective bargaining and lobbying.

    I would consider delayed raises a bigger intrusion on my life than some one calling me on the phone.

  • dayday 9,611 Posts
    Collective bargaining insures better working conditions, benefits and pay. The dues are to cover the costs of organizing, collective bargaining and lobbying.

    I would consider delayed raises a bigger intrusion on my life than some one calling me on the phone.

    I understand what you're saying, but the Union issue has nothing to do with the election so it's kind of a moot point.
    There were problems with poor management in a certain department that led to some people not getting their reviews on time. I wouldn't say that's a rallying cry to bring in the Union. Comparing that to the oversimplification of a phone call isn't very accurate either. They did some seriously underhanded things.
    My feeling is, if it really is that bad and you are that unhappy working there - leave.
    That said, a lot of the people I worked with are still there to this day so that says something IMO.

  • dayday 9,611 Posts
    from what i gather the rich get richer the poor get poorer. nothing new.
    it's also really troubling to me that these props make exemptions for california environmental protection laws.

    I forgot to add this quote

    ???These agreements contain strict new environmental safeguards for tribal gaming projects, including provisions that mirror the California Environmental Quality Act.??? ???Linda Adams, Secretary, California Environmental Protection Agency


    b/w

    what's good Diane!

  • JimBeamJimBeam Seattle. 2,012 Posts
    no money is guaranteed for the schools

    there's no place in this issue for schools, and i really think this stance reeks of the "what about the children???" tactic. Any of the tax revenue increases directly related to these casinos will increase the state general fund, which is not how schools are funded.
    personally, (in terms of overall school funding) i realize CA public schools are garbage, but the state has a long track record of throwing money at schools, and nothing has changed for the better. i believe that future public school funding initiatives need to focus on incentives which will encourage the schools to actually achieve results (not "no child left behind" crap, but actual results) through more efficient spending of tax dollars- not just increasing their budget pool.

    [color:white] *cue dj anna choking me* [/color]

  • (not "no child left behind" crap, but actual results)

    Um, I'm not sure you know what NCLB is because the goal of NCLB is to measure actual results.

  • well, in defense of the tax revenues thing, our state is in such a miserable state that even money in the general hopper is good.

    but hey!

    THE PLOT THICKENS[/b]

    as soon as school let out today, the block was bombed with these prop 94,95,96,97 fliers. oh, btw, this is a predominantly african american neighborhood. so the fliers have the full endorsement of the african american community. or so the flier would have you believe. some very vague factoids are listed on the pamphlet.
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