Different "Amen Brother" pressings?

akoako https://soundcloud.com/a-ko 3,413 Posts
edited January 2008 in Strut Central
so, i brought this up once before, but tonight i got down and really analyzed this whole thing. basically, and i dont know if this is common knowledge or im just an idiot or what, but there seem to be at least 2 different versions of this 45. i've come across 5 copies in my lifetime, but i only possess 3 right now. here is an audio comparison for you between my 3 copies. youll find that the second version has NO reverb on the drums, and they are panned almost entirely to the right channel, while the first and last are full in the mix and the left channel is drenched with reverb. please listen:so i looked closer, and the first and last copies in the clip, the reverb version, have this number stamped in the dead wax:ZTS 144399-2Awhile the dead-sounding one has this stamped on it, but in handwriting instead of gothic letters:ZTS 144399-1Bnow, and again, maybe im just stupid, but it sort of makes sense if there were multiple dies cast for this particular 45, but i dont understand why they would be different mixes? can somebody explain this to me? which copy do you own? which version are promo copies? (mine are both blue labels) im a bit confused.

  Comments


  • wooshiewooshie 490 Posts
    shot in the dark; is one possibly a mono pressing?

  • your file appears to be 0 bytes. Call for a re-up.

    (oh shit, omar comin)

  • akoako https://soundcloud.com/a-ko 3,413 Posts
    shot in the dark; is one possibly a mono pressing?

    they are all stereo pressings.

  • akoako https://soundcloud.com/a-ko 3,413 Posts
    your file appears to be 0 bytes. Call for a re-up.

    (oh shit, omar comin)

    FIXED IT, sorry dudes!

  • you could try z-share.

    I only have one copy of this 45 and mine actually reads zts 144399-2B

    that's funny. It's different than your two. Is Color Him Father on the other side?

    that side has zts 144398-2C for me. (i don't know why it says c)

  • akoako https://soundcloud.com/a-ko 3,413 Posts
    does it sound different than the ones in the clip? this is strange to me, but maybe this was common practice back then and im just clueless.

    both have "Color Him Father" as the A-side. i've only ever seen one other winstons 45, but i think it had 2 completely different songs on it.

    reverb copy A-side:

    ZTS 144398-2A

    dead copy A-side:

    ZTS 144398-1B

    which is even STRANGER, because one side on each version has the matrix number in handwriting, and the other in stamped letters. this brings in even more to this all. i wonder if there were multiple copies with different sides altogether?

  • akoako https://soundcloud.com/a-ko 3,413 Posts
    i also just noticed that the dead-sounding one is much faster than the reverb one. i did a multi-track layer comparison and while the first and last versions of the break ran about 7.120 seconds long, the middle one was only 6.964 seconds long

    yet, the running time on all the labels is 2:35.......

  • karlophonekarlophone 1,697 Posts
    i also just noticed that the dead-sounding one is much faster than the reverb one. i did a multi-track layer comparison and while the first and last versions of the break ran about 7.120 seconds long, the middle one was only 6.964 seconds long

    yet, the running time on all the labels is 2:35.......

    this smells like a re-mastering, with slightly different run time due to a bit of vari-speed. i bet if you time the two theyll not be the same time, despite the labels.

    maybe someone at the label decided to re-do it for some reason - like to sweeten up the b-side to see if any stations flipped the record?

    its really weird though. good detective work so far.

    wasnt there a big amen brother thing in waxpoetics or something a while back that went into the origins of the track? or was that an article online somewhere...

  • akoako https://soundcloud.com/a-ko 3,413 Posts
    wasnt there a big amen brother thing in waxpoetics or something a while back that went into the origins of the track? or was that an article online somewhere...

    ive read a handful of articles on the track, which are interesting, but none of them bring up anything about re-recording it...both my versions sound like the same recording, just different mixes.

  • BreakSelfBreakSelf 2,925 Posts
    wasnt there a big amen brother thing in waxpoetics or something a while back that went into the origins of the track? or was that an article online somewhere...

    ive read a handful of articles on the track, which are interesting, but none of them bring up anything about re-recording it...both my versions sound like the same recording, just different mixes.

    I will put this to rest once and for all. Yes, there were at least two different pressings of Amen Brother, both with slightly different types of styrene and one with (very) slightly wider grooves than the other. Metromedia didn't expect Color Him Father to be such a hit, so a second run was ordered.

    The version with the longer break is the original version, but, surprisingly, the writing in the dead wax isn't a reliable indicator (copies of both pressings seem to have both types of writing for some reason). Anyway, to truly tell the difference you actually have to look in the grooves!

    First, you'll need a 15x magnifying glass - if you don't already have one you can buy one pretty cheap at a hobby shop or a hardware store. Second, you'll need a really bright 100-120watt light bulb. Once you've acquired these items, thoroughly clean the copies of the 45 you want to examine. Use either denatured alcohol or a combination of 70% isopropyl alcohol, water, and (a drop of) dish soap. Once the records have been cleaned and dried, take them to a table with a largish surface along with your portable turntable. The cool part is that the difference b/w the two pressings is evident in the grooves at the very start of the break, so you'll have to cue up the 45 so you know where to look. Once the 45 has been cued up, take it off the portable and move it under the 120W bulb - be sure to keep track of where on the record the break starts. When you're ready, position the magnifying glass over the record and look. You'll probably have to move the magnifying glass up and down a bit to get the acuity right. So, anyway, when you're confident that you have the break lined up correctly under the magnifying glass, it should be pretty clear whether you're looking at the first or second pressing. If it's the second pressing, you won't see anything out of the ordinary. BUT, if you're holding an original, when you look into the grooves you will see LeToupt looking back at you and waving.

    hope that helps.

    kthxbai

  • johmbolayajohmbolaya 4,472 Posts
    I don't know about the different pressings of this 45, but there may be a few things at play:

    1) Each one was done at a different pressing plant. If the handwriting is not the same, that might be a clue. Metromedia did get a lot of distribution, and while The Winstons didn't sell as much as Bobby Sherman, the label probably tried to get a lot of coverage on both coasts and everywhere in between. I too have two copies, but they are in storage so I can't check on them.

    2) If they were done at different pressing plants, then there's a possibility that each one was mastered differently for vinyl. It can and did happen quite a bit on 45's, where the first run did well but perhaps the band, the producer, an engineer, or a label exec didn't like how the first version was done, so a bit of tweaking was involved to make it sound "better".

    There's also the issue of "narrow stereo" and "wide stereo" mixes, maybe one of them didn't sound good coming through one channel, so alterations were done.

    3) After listening to the file, I know one of my copies is the second version, with no reverb.

    4) Another possibility. You stated that the one that is machine stamped has the reverb, while the long with the handwritten matrix doesn't. Is it possible that the handwritten one is a 45 that was released by Metromedia proper, while the machine stamped one was one for wider/national distribution, thus the need for "adjustments"? It seems that the only big artist on the label was Bobby Sherman, so it's possible that once his records took off, they decided to go through a major label for distribution, and probably made an attempt to push some of the other records on the label in the hopes of breaking them through.

    For the sake of argument, look at the lettering of this:


    and this:


    The one on the top looks like it was pressed by Columbia, while the second one looks like it was pressed by RCA, at least if you are to judge them from the style of lettering.

    5) Final thought. Is it possible that the one marked with "1B", perhaps the original, was the one meant as a B-side, but because of regional airplay, a second mix was made, but this time to be pushed as the A-side ("2A")?


    Other than that, I have no idea.

  • johmbolayajohmbolaya 4,472 Posts
    when you look into the grooves you will see LeToupt looking back at you and waving.

    Or this option.

    Here's another question. I don't have the album, but are the album and 45 mixes one and the same? I ask because there's an obvious edit at the beginning of the break and I wonder if more of the break exists, if the multi-tracks haven't been destroyed or anything. I'm guessing the actual full break is twice as long.


  • holmesholmes 3,532 Posts
    LeToupt looking back at you and waving.
    You had me until here!! It's late here.

  • akoako https://soundcloud.com/a-ko 3,413 Posts

    For the sake of argument, look at the lettering of this:


    and this:


    The one on the top looks like it was pressed by Columbia, while the second one looks like it was pressed by RCA, at least if you are to judge them from the style of lettering.

    5) Final thought. Is it possible that the one marked with "1B", perhaps the original, was the one meant as a B-side, but because of regional airplay, a second mix was made, but this time to be pushed as the A-side ("2A")?


    Other than that, I have no idea.

    good post. columbia was definitely known for the franklin gothic labels while RCA used helvetica. the only problem with the A/B theory, is what controller7 brought up, which is that his copy features the letter "C" at the end of the matrix number. what im guessing is the letter might differentiate the mix, while the number indicates the revision/die number? i dont know. anyway im glad people seem to be expressing interest. it may be trivial and pointless, but stuff like this is pretty interesting to me.

  • johmbolayajohmbolaya 4,472 Posts
    i dont know. anyway im glad people seem to be expressing interest. it may be trivial and pointless, but stuff like this is pretty interesting to me.

    It's all about finding out more information about the actual record, and now that there may be three different mixes of the song, released by the same label, it still brings up the question of why.

    If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll go ask on the SH board and see if anyone knows.

  • johmbolayajohmbolaya 4,472 Posts
    If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll go ask on the SH board and see if anyone knows.

    ...and I did. If anyone cares to check out the thread, here it is:
    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=138515

    I wasn't sure if I'd get an answer on why different mixes were made, I at least wanted to know what the 1B, 2A, and 2B meant. I figured that it simply meant that a different version was made, and I was more or less correct. Here are the responses so far:


    Those ZTS numbers are from Columbias pressing plant they must have produced the finished discs for Metromedia.
    The '1B' and '2A,' are the lacquer/metal master cuttings - where the '1' is the first tape or mix made for that mastering studio (usually NY or LA), and the 'A' or 'B' indicates the actual cutting (the 'B' is the second cutting; a 'J' would be the tenth cut - Columbia has NEVER used 'I').

    =============

    I.I.N.M., the handwritten lacquers designated "1x" were mastered by A&R Recording in New York, and generally went to the Pitman, NJ plant. "2x" lacquers were cut in-house by Columbia's New York studios (they were gung-ho about machine stamping on their dead wax) and were generally found on pressings from Terre Haute, IN and Santa Maria, CA.

    Another difference is in the printing of the label copy. Though all pressings use the same Pitman-based typesetting, generally the type looks a bit thicker on Terre Haute and Santa Maria pressings than on Pitman pressings.

    It would also appear that the channels on the Columbia-cut lacquers were the reverse of A&R's lacquers.

    This same rule is applicable to the "Color Him Father" side (ZTS 144398) as well.


    When it was mentioned in this thread that the emphasis of the break was on the right channel for one pressing and the left channel for another, I also assumed that at some point in mastering, they were simply reversed. Of course, it doesn't explain why there was a need to give it reverb. When I heard it, it reminded me of the same reverb heard on the studio version of Rare Earth's "Get Ready" so that it came off as a live recording, or some of the "live" tracks on James Brown's Sex Machine[/b] album.



    If anything, we at least know about where each master was made, but not a reason as to why they were made in the first place.

  • akoako https://soundcloud.com/a-ko 3,413 Posts

    Those ZTS numbers are from Columbias pressing plant they must have produced the finished discs for Metromedia.
    The '1B' and '2A,' are the lacquer/metal master cuttings - where the '1' is the first tape or mix made for that mastering studio (usually NY or LA), and the 'A' or 'B' indicates the actual cutting (the 'B' is the second cutting; a 'J' would be the tenth cut - Columbia has NEVER used 'I').

    cool, so i wasnt far off on that point at least.

    the reverb issue might remain a mystery. hopefully somebody can solve it!
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