Terry Schiavo is gone...
prof_rockwell
2,867 Posts
just heard it on NPR right now...
prof_rockwell
2,867 Posts
Comments
I still can't decide if it's a shame people were playing with her life to set an example or if there's ultimately a greater good that will result from that...
In any case, Rest In Peace.
I think the greater good is that more people will create living wills and appoint a health care guardian for themselves. Otherwise you may become a cause celebre for right wing nutjobs who have very little conception of what's real and natural.
Indeed, but she was kinda already dead 15 years ago. I hope this helps her family move on with their lives.
Sad day.
But Life is for the Living....have a drink in her honor and start living again.
Sadly, people never move on from stuff like this, they end up dwelling on it and it becomes their cause for the rest of their lives...
peace. [color:green] [/color]
[color:white]* And YES, life is for the living so I see no better place to make that remark...[/color]
Except the lesson that I drew from this episode is that there will always be religious nutjobs--a group which includes the current president, his family and a signficant portion of Congress--that, if they are unwilling to accept multiple court rulings, surely wouldn't respect a living will, either...
Let???s go back to Pinellas Park, where Lisa Daniels is standing by???
Lisa.??
DANIELS:?? Well, Joe, at this point, we are going to delve into the medical aspect of the story.??
I want to bring in Dr. Ronald Cranford.?? He???s a neurologist at Hennepin Medical Center in Minneapolis.??
And, Doctor, before we continue, I want our viewers to understand what your role was in the legal case.?? I understand that Michael Schiavo and his team asked you to examine his wife.?? Is that correct???
DR. RONALD CRANFORD, NEUROLOGIST:?? Yes.?? Yes, they did.??
DANIELS:?? And from my understanding, I just want to be accurate, you examined Terri Schiavo for about 45 minutes.?? Is that right???
CRANFORD:?? I think 42 minutes, but 45 is fine, sure.??
DANIELS:?? All right.?? Well, we want to be accurate here.?? What was your conclusion at the end of...
(CROSSTALK)
CRANFORD:?? Wait a minute.?? You are not accurate on a lot of things here.?? You???re saying a lot of???she???s not starving to death.?? Do you understand that??? She is dehydrating to death.??
DANIELS:?? Well, why do you say that??? Tell us how you came to that conclusion???
(CROSSTALK)
CRANFORD:?? Can I tell you why??? Because I have done this 25 to 50 times.?? I don???t know how many times Joe has done it, but I???ve done it 25 to 50 times in similar situations.?? And they die within 10 to 14 days.??
Nancy Cruzan did not die in six days.?? She died in 11 days, 11.5 hours.?? And Terri Schiavo will die within 10 to 14 days.?? And they are dying of dehydration, not starvation.?? And that???s just a lie.?? And Joe doesn???t have any idea what he is talking about.?? And you don???t have any idea what you???re talking about.??
DANIELS:?? Well...
CRANFORD:?? I have been at the bedside of these patients.?? I know what they die from.?? I have seen them die.?? And this is all bogus.?? It???s all just a bunch crap that you are saying.?? It???s totally wrong.
DANIELS:?? Well, with all due respect, Doctor, it sounds like you think that you know what you are talking about, so let???s ask you about that.??
CRANFORD:?? Sure.
DANIELS:?? Are you 100 percent correct in your opinion that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state??? Do you agree with that???
CRANFORD:?? I am 105 percent sure she is in a vegetative state.?? And the autopsy will show severe reversible brain damage to the higher centers, yes.??
DANIELS:?? Why are you so sure, Doctor???
CRANFORD:?? Because I examined her.?? The court-appointed guardian examined her.?? Four neurologists at the hospital where she was has said she???s carried a diagnosis of vegetative state for 12 years.??
Every neurologist that examined her, except for Dr. Hammesfahr, who is a charlatan, has said she is in vegetative state.?? That???s what the court found.?? Just because you don???t like...
(CROSSTALK)
CRANFORD:?? Doctor, was a CAT scan???Doctor, your critics would ask you, was a CAT scan used??? Was an MRI taken??? Were any of these tests taken???
CRANFORD:?? You don???t know the answer to that??? The CAT scan was done in 1996, 2002.?? We spent a lot of time in court showing the???you don???t have copies of those CAT scans??? How can you say that???
The CAT scans are out there, distributed to other people.?? You have got to look at the facts.?? The CAT scan is out there.?? It shows severe atrophy of the brain.?? The autopsy is going to show severe atrophy of the brain.?? And you are asking me if a CAT scan was done??? How could you possibly be so stupid???
SCARBOROUGH:?? Wait.?? Wait.?? Wait.?? Wait a second.??
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH:?? Hold on a second, if I can interrupt here.??
CRANFORD:?? Go ahead.?? Joe, interrupt me.
Why don???t you go ahead and tell the rest of the story there??? Why don???t you tell us that the radiologist that looked at the two CAT scans said she showed improvement in 2002 over 1996??? You know, you seem so sure of yourself.?? The Associated Press reported yesterday...
CRANFORD:?? Joe, the judge didn???t believe him.
SCARBOROUGH:?? Hold on a second.?? Hold on a second.??
You are so sure of yourself.?? Respond to this.?? AP had a report yesterday.?? They said seven doctors have looked at her.?? Four said she was in persistent vegetative state.?? You were one of them, hired by Michael Schiavo to do that.?? There were three others that looked at her that disagreed.??
How can you be so absolutely sure that everybody that agrees with you is 100 percent accurate and everybody on the other side is a charlatan???
CRANFORD:?? Joe, Judge???Judge Greer disallowed, didn???t believe what Maxfield said.?? You got your numbers wrong.?? There were eight neurologists saw her.?? Seven of the eight said she was in a vegetative state.?? Only one said she wasn???t.
SCARBOROUGH:?? I am quoting an Associated Press report from yesterday.??
CRANFORD:?? Joe, you???ve got to get your facts straight.??
SCARBOROUGH:?? I have got my facts straight.??
CRANFORD:?? Get your facts straight.?? You???ve got your facts way off.??
SCARBOROUGH:?? Why don???t we talk about???hold on a second.??
CRANFORD:?? Go ahead.
SCARBOROUGH:?? You talked about a 1996 scan.??
CRANFORD:?? Oh, 2002, 2002.??
SCARBOROUGH:?? Let???s talk about it.?? A radiologist told the court that the 2002 scan actually showed improvement over the 1996 scan.?? Is that inaccurate??? Did the AP report that wrong???
(CROSSTALK)
CRANFORD:?? Absolutely.?? Maxfield said it was improved.?? And Judge Greer didn???t buy it, because the others said it wasn???t improved.?? It was probably worse than it was before.??
SCARBOROUGH:?? Is he a charlatan also???
CRANFORD:?? Yes.?? Maxfield said HBO, vasodilator.?? Look it up, Joe.?? See what vasodilator does.?? See what hyperbaric oxygen see???in these cases, and you tell me they are not charlatans.?? Just because you don???t agree with me???I don???t call everybody a charlatan.??
I???m not calling Cheshire a charlatan.?? I think he???s a reputable neurologist.?? I think he examined her.?? He interviewed her.?? So, just because I disagree, I don???t call them charlatans.?? But you have got your facts so far off that it???s unbelievable, Joe.?? You don???t have any idea what you are talking about.?? You???ve never been at the bedside of these patients.
And this will come out in the next three to five years about this condition and starvation.??
SCARBOROUGH:?? You were there 42 minutes, Doctor.??
CRANFORD:?? Yes, I was.??
SCARBOROUGH:?? You are only one doctor that has been there.?? And somehow, in your 42 minutes of observing her, you have all the answers and everybody that disagrees is dead wrong, I guess.
CRANFORD:?? No, that???s just a???you know what??? You got to see what Judge Greer said.?? You have got to see what the appeals court said.?? If you read that, Joe, you will understand why the judge decided the way he did.??
SCARBOROUGH:?? All right.??
CRANFORD:?? He didn???t believe Hammesfahr.?? He didn???t believe Maxfield.?? And it???s not starvation.?? And Nancy Cruzan did not die in six days.?? She died in 11 days and 11.5 hours, 11 days and 11.5 hours.
SCARBOROUGH:?? All right.??
CRANFORD:?? OK?
SCARBOROUGH:?? Thank you, Doctor.??
CRANFORD:?? My pleasure.??
SCARBOROUGH:?? You know what???
This is the disappointing thing.?? You try to have a conversation.?? You t ry to talk about what is going on.?? And I found this as an attorney, too.?? I have been attorneys for plaintiffs.?? I have been attorneys for defendants.?? And what I always find out is, there are certain doctors???I am not claiming that this doctor is a charlatan.?? I don???t know his body of work.?? I am not claiming that he is a hired gun.
But too many doctors out there can be bought off by attorneys on either side.?? And then they come out, instead of telling you the facts, you get into debate like you are talking to an attorney.?? It is very, very disappointing.??
I want to apologize to Lisa for interrupting her, but the thing is, Lisa was getting attacked because of what I said.?? I think that is unfair.??
When we come back, we are going to be talking to the Reverend Jesse Jackson live.?? That???s right after the break.??
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Its amazing to me that these people who claim to be so religious have such a pronounced fear of death. R.I.P. Terry Schiavo, may her spirit now be free to continue on its journey.
I found it equally repulsive that our president took the oportunity to mouth off about establishing a "culture of life" while americans are being shipped back daily in flag draped coffins.
Disturbing to say the least. But i mean, what do you expect from fucking snake people?
THANK YOU.
This is just the start of this skirmish, people...hold on, and brace yourselves. This will look like a reasonable debate compared to what's gonna go down once the Supreme Court openings are up for grabs.
And Jesse 'Rainbow' Jackson
WHich is exactly why this was being beat into the ground. Anytime something like this takes center stage you can bet something far worse is going on that some one doesn't want to be the headline.
The Daily Show made the exelant point that congress and the pres can't ever show up for work enough to get health care for everone or anything else productive, but they shure as hell had all the time in the world to debate this bullshit. Not to mention that Bush passed a law in Texas that is was OK to let some one die IF THEY COULDN'T PAY THE MEDICAL BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (In that case a 6 year old boy)
Also, this is exactly the kind of stuff the Rebublicans used to say should be left to the states to descide. But of course they didn't have control of the federal government then!!!!!!!! Now suddenly everything should be descided by the federal goverment for everyone nation wide. Fuck you right wing bastards.
For Christsakes the women killed herself with a eating disorder, what else is there to talk about after that.
Plus, all these pathetic people on the news crying like they knew her.
People fucking suck!
My mom had life long diabetes and though she never filled out any paper work she told us more than once that she did not want to be kept alive by machines when her body started shutting down. We actually let her be on machines for about a week in the hopes that she would come back. But the doctors made it clear that she was only going downhill. So we unhooked the machines and let nature take it's course and it was only a matter of minutes. It was the hardest fucking thing we've ever done as a family but it was the right thing. So it makes me fucking sick to see people go after Terry's husband. Bush has taken more vacation that any other pres in history and he wants to go after a husband that's been working FOR his wife for 15 years!!!!!!
Fuck everybody that thinks Terry should have been kept alive. Get you ass to a homeless shelter and actually help someone instead of your armchair angel babbling bullshit.
V, I agree with pretty much everything you just said. But I do have to take issue with Michael Shiavo over one thing. I think that pragmatically at a certain point, when he realized he was dealing with completely irrational people(the Shindlers), IMO he should have signed off, having won every conceivable meaningful court case, and let his parents keep his wife's body to vainly pine over for the rest of their(and their children's lives). By continuing to fight it, he inadvertantly allowed these flood gates to be opened. Precedents like the stuff that happened in the Congress would never REALLY had been at issue if he'd just won, then stepped aside. He was being just as stubborn as his former in-laws, right or wrong.
I know, people say that it was fighting for a greater principle, and I can't really disagree...but all of us are here arguing that the issue is practicality, she's no longer really Terri,etc, but we are willing to back up his actions that helped put the rights of every American in distress, because it ended up galvanizing this completely irrational base of activist"culture of life" freaks. And unfortunately we live in a time when these people have the ear of the most powerful institutions in the world. And if HE could have let go, and found SOME sort of solution with her side of the family, maybe the "culture of life"-ers wouldn't have their martyr, but just another sad story.
Not trying to piss in anyone's cheerio-s, just some food for thought. I feel for the guy(I mean, I would seriously think about taking MYSELF out if I knew I was staring down 10+ years of endless litigation and lawyers in my life-so I respect his stamina) and I think he was certainly on the right side of the argument, but sometimes wisdom knows when to let go and settle for knowing[/b] you were right, and letting the less wise to follow their own path of self-destruction. Now, all he's got is a life that is demonized and polarized and edited for the mass media. Truly sad.
That's an great point. I'm not sure how you would play that out. I'm sure he witnessed her weight stuggle more than anyone so he was just as emotionally charged/stubborn about letting her die. I guess if he really wanted to make a hard core statment he could have divorced her and told the parents/pundants "OK she's yours, have fun showing up to the hospital everyday to babysit and pay the bills." That would be a pretty crazy/cool fuck you.
This was not thought out well - at least the part about it being "cool". This is very simply typifying exactly how the religious right was acting out in this issue - objectifying Shiavo into twisted martyrdom. BTW, didn't Michael Shiavo receive/will receive some money due to his wife's condition? I do however agree with your point that he perhaps was too stubborn - I mean, he had after all romantically moved on to another woman, started a family, etc.
Well you can't really blame the guy for moving on. There are plenty of people who have loved ones in, say, prison for 5 years or so and can't/won't wait. She would've never been a regular person even if she miraculously woke up - I can't fault the guy for wanting closure after 15 years[/b].
Birdman Nueva,
I hear you on all this but I'm not convinced that the Schiavo case has really done a great harm to anyone except for Congressional opportunists who've ended up looking very bad in this situation.
I don't have precise polling, but I think most Americans supported Michael. I think a high %, if not a majority, of Amerians thought the Schindlers - while sympathetic - were overzealous and attached their son-in-law too harshly.
Most of all, this case demonstrated that the concept of due process is alive and well in America. Even the Bushes, who are quick to kiss the ass of the Religious Right when it serves them, basically said, "I'm not going against a court order." They, for once, respected the institution of checks and balances that America is supposed to operate on. That's what bolstered Michael's case so well: EVERY JUDGE involved was basically like, "there's nothing to argue about here." I think the Schiavo case was an important affirmation of that...unlike, say, the MJ case which is pure spectacle in the worst way.
Joe Scarborough is a stupid fuck[/b] and that doctor handed him his head. And what the fuck is the deal with Jesse Jackson?
There were plenty of things to be angry about during this ordeal but Jesse Jackson was laugh-out-loud ridiculous.
I mean, first off, he shows up AFTER doctors say that there's no way she can be restored to the level of health she had when they removed the tube. A day before she dies. I mean, what, he was real busy and this was the first opportunity he had to get down to Florida? He was camping in the jungle and just happened to catch the news on the airplane home? He himself was in a coma, and woke up just in time to see someone of similar circumstance?
And who, at this point, cares what the hell Jesse Jackson has to say. I am really interested to know. I don't know anyone - white, black, or otherwise - who considers him a relevant figure today. Maybe I am missing something, though...
You're not missing anything. The fall of Jesse Jackson is one of the sadder events of the last ten years. I saw him speak when I protested the first Gulf War way back when and was genuinely moved. Now he just looks like a chump scrambling for Al Sharpton's table scraps (and who ever saw the day coming when Sharpton would be taken more seriously than Jesse Jackson?!?!?).
O-dub, you are right, the courts were pretty crystal clear, and I guess in the end these folks were on a runaway train that would not be stopped. But litigation like this takes two to tango, and I DO resent all parties for allowing this to be manipulated and dragged through endless, repetitious, and IMO scurrilous litigation.If you were in his shoes, I guarantee at some point, you would ask your attorneys "How do I make this end?".What they say to that, I don't know, but the only winners in this were the lawyers and the Randall Terry's of the world who logged millions of dollars worth of free pub. The fact that Michael Shaivo was right does not mean that the greater good was served, it mostly means that the crazy folks are now going to do their best to alter WHO is upholding those laws, but I guess that's their perogative as Americans too.
And now that crazy sector is energized and organized, while the rest of us just want to get back to reality. It really makes me nervous for the kind of bone this Administration is gonna throw them the NEXT time around. It's far from over.
Yeah, there's no way Jeb was going to jump in at the last minute. 2008 or 2012 he's going to make his own presidential run, no doubt. Technically, florida is one of the few states that gives its governors that kind of privlige, but he was right to back off.
It really ended up being a far-right issue (even for the crazy crap that goes on in Florida). All the polls I've seen put people siding with the husband at around %66-75. Including a majority of christians.
What it really came down to is: will the government allow the person left to make decisions on removing life support go through with his/her decision? Georgy came back from vacation to ink a bill and the republicans rushed it through. They did everything they could to circumvent the law, but they couldn't get around the judicial system.
It definitely makes me feel good, too, there is that process, but the good guys definitely made it by the skin of their teeth. It also upsets me that this issue can get so much airtime on the merit of being a pro-life issue, but an issue like nationalized health care will never even be on the table.
I was wondering if any of these Christards actually read the Bible? I mean, not that I agree with the above passage, but just sayin'
Well there's also stuff in there about how foul 'usery' is, y'know, but most Christian Republicans have no problem letting banks and credit card companies write legislation to essentially give usery the big OK.