I'm curious - does this mean we are supposed to assume her millions of supporters within Pakistan and abroad are completely misguided or have been hoodwinked? I don't dispute what you are saying, but I don't think she can be so easily dismissed as having been completely without purpose or merit in the representation of her people.
It's worth pointing out that one could substitute our current American president in here with this defense. It's dangerous to conflate populism into righteousness, especially with someone as divisive as Bhutto.
Right - but I didn't do that. All I said, which earned me a heap of derision from the usual smug suspects, was that it has to be a bit more complex than either "she's a martyr" or "ding dong the witch is dead!" ... it's easy to sit at your keyboard in the US and quote journalistic facts, it's another thing to live in Pakistan and be forced to either support the opposition, warts and all, or submit to absolute oppression. That is my only point - whether she had the interests of the people in mind or not, a great many had looked to her as a voice of hope and had stood by her, and her murder speaks to a terrible situation that will only get worse, and probably serves to crush that hope even further.
One of the really tragic things about this recent development is that Bhutto created or at least helped to create the monster that killed her. She collaborated with the military and nurtured the Islamists that came up during Zia ul-Haqs reign. She was one of the few popular politicians in the country, but she did not really enjoy mass support from a majority of the people. Almost all the Pakistani people I talked to were rather critical regarding her ambitions to become Pakistani prime minister again and the same goes for Nawaz Sharif. It??s sad, but currently the only parties with a well established structure are the Islamists. Musharraf is certainly not the solution, but there won??t be any solution without him, Now if he will be assassinated, that might cause trouble.
And why all this fuzz about chaos in Pakistan now? The situation has been rather turbulent for some time now. It might sound sarcastic, but in a huge country with 160 Million inhabitants a bomb blast here and there and a small riot here and there simply doesn??t mean chaos. The situation got worse recently as, for example, suicide bombings and riots happened in the capital as well, but most of the people do not really care about these things and want to live their life. They will certainly blame the US for their problems though.
and whoever cares for some well done written account regarding the recent development in Pakistan I recommend this
the woman deserved to go through elections, and if she won, be given a chance to prove herself as opposed to getting shot down in the street.
The only reason she had a chance to return was because she co-authored the National Reconciliation Ordinance with Musharraf, which was a document that breathed new political life into both of them.
Exactly. Bhutto hoped this vile piece of legislation would result in charges being dropped against her in Spain, Switzerland and the UK, as it forgave everybody who'd ever looted the treasury!
Are the naysayers in this thread glad she has died a violent death? That is what I'm sensing.
Regardless of her checkered past, she did give an element of hope to the country. Sharif said it was "the saddest day in Pakistan's history", I believe that sentiment is shared by many of its citizens.
Perhaps not shared by the armchair quarterbacks listening to Placebo on mp3 in the comforts of their American home.
Are the naysayers in this thread glad she has died a violent death? That is what I'm sensing.
Not happy Bhutto died a violent death; not happy the usual craptastic elevation to martyr has begun in the media. I mean, it's not as though she was Princess Diana!
1) Liaquat Ali Khan - Assassinated 2) Khawaja Nazimuddin - Forced To Resign 3) Muhammad Ali Bogra - Forced To Resign 4) Chaudhry Muhammad Ali - Resigned 5) Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy - Poisoned(alledgedly) 6) Ibrahim Ismail Chundrigar - Resigned after 2 months 7) Feroz Noon - Removed by Martial Law after 11 months 8) Mohammad Ayub Khan - Resigned 9) Nurul Amin - Removed by Martial Law after 3 weeks 10) Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto - Executed by Public Hanging 11) Muhammed Junejo - Removed by President 12) Benazir Bhutto - Exiled and later Assassinated 13) Ghulum Jatoi - Resigned after 3 months 14) Nawaz Sharif - Resigned & Arrested 15) Moeenuddin Qureshi - Interim Resigned now lives in U.S.
I mean, it's not as though she was Princess Diana!
Maybe not.
But please post other major figures of which are Muslim women in world politics in the last 30 years.
Political discourse is celebrity-driven these days. This is why you missed my (sarcastic) point re Diana, whose myth has grown to absurd and disgusting proportions. You've been conned into believing the whole false structure of adulation and mourning surrounding her is anything other than a media creation. Next up, Perky Pat!
You've been conned into believing the whole false structure of adulation and mourning surrounding her is anything other than a media creation.
Are you and Mad Drama living in Pakistan? Why do you take such an authoritative view on how the people view her? Why is/was her party the leading party in Pakistan?
I've been away from this thread since I last posted, but you and Mad Drama are still just as obnoxious and irrelevant. Whether Bhutto has a flawed political history is obviously irrelevant to her importance there now, or as of a day ago. I'm not trying to sound like a broken record, but you never responded , so i'll repeat: She was challenging Musharef's elimination of civil rights; her party was/is the only democratic party that proposed a secular government; she came back to Pakistan knowing that the extremists (and possibly Mushareff) would want to kill her.
Its great if you want to act like a know it all in regards to Bhutto's history of corruption and other alleged crimes, but the fact that you are trying to twist that into an argument about how we have all been "duped" by the media is pathetic.
You and Drama need to go stroke each other somewhere. The two of you sound like a bunch of douchebags.
for analysis of the actual assassination, and the previous attempt on her life, many recent entries here are interesting .... http://counterterrorismblog.org
I mean, it's not as though she was Princess Diana!
Maybe not.
But please post other major figures of which are Muslim women in world politics in the last 30 years.
Political discourse is celebrity-driven these days. This is why you missed my (sarcastic) point re Diana, whose myth has grown to absurd and disgusting proportions. You've been conned into believing the whole false structure of adulation and mourning surrounding her is anything other than a media creation. Next up, Perky Pat!
I agree with you that people are often raised to sainthood/genius/courageous after death.
This thread has been the opposite. People in this thread have accused Bhutto of murder and torture and lots more. These are not things she is guilty of.
The charges against her are that she accepted kickbacks and used her power to enrich her family.
The other set of charges aginst her are best spelled out in the Al Tariq newstory posted above.
People have even stated in this thread that the majority of Pakistanis don't like her. She was twice elected prime minister in democratic elections.
One thing that has not changed is that Pakistan is balanced between military dictatorship and radical religous zealots.
The one thing that unifys all of the Pakistani leaders that Rock posted is they served at the grace of the military. If the military had supported Bhutto she would have remained PM dispite corruption charges. If they supported her she would not have been assinated. Just this week the NYT has run a series about the billions of dollars we have sent to Pakistan in the last 5 years that can't be acconted.
You've been conned into believing the whole false structure of adulation and mourning surrounding her is anything other than a media creation.
I've been away from this thread since I last posted, but you and Mad Drama are still just as obnoxious and irrelevant. Whether Bhutto has a flawed political history is obviously irrelevant to her importance there now, or as of a day ago. I'm not trying to sound like a broken record, but you never responded , so i'll repeat: She was challenging Musharef's elimination of civil rights; her party was/is the only democratic party that proposed a secular government; she came back to Pakistan knowing that the extremists (and possibly Mushareff) would want to kill her.
Its great if you want to act like a know it all in regards to Bhutto's history of corruption and other alleged crimes, but the fact that you are trying to twist that into an argument about how we have all been "duped" by the media is pathetic.
I'm not a know-it-all. But I know more than you do, as is obvious from your ridiculous account of Bhutto's aims in returning to Pakistan. It was a power-sharing arrangement, you idiot, promoted by Washington because Musharraf's unpopularity is dangerous.
And everybody -including me- is always in danger of being duped by the media.
You've been conned into believing the whole false structure of adulation and mourning surrounding her is anything other than a media creation.
I've been away from this thread since I last posted, but you and Mad Drama are still just as obnoxious and irrelevant. Whether Bhutto has a flawed political history is obviously irrelevant to her importance there now, or as of a day ago. I'm not trying to sound like a broken record, but you never responded , so i'll repeat: She was challenging Musharef's elimination of civil rights; her party was/is the only democratic party that proposed a secular government; she came back to Pakistan knowing that the extremists (and possibly Mushareff) would want to kill her.
Its great if you want to act like a know it all in regards to Bhutto's history of corruption and other alleged crimes, but the fact that you are trying to twist that into an argument about how we have all been "duped" by the media is pathetic.
I'm not a know-it-all. But I know more than you do, as is obvious from your ridiculous account of Bhutto's aims in returning to Pakistan. It was a power-sharing arrangement, you idiot, promoted by Washington because Musharraf's unpopularity is dangerous.
And everybody -including me- is always in danger of being duped by the media.
There was no public agreement when Bhutto went back, and even if there was a secret agreement, that is still irrelevant to whether she was risking her life in returning and whether she would have brought a drastic change to Musharef's police state, even if he retained his power. Not to mention whether advocating a secular democratic government was unique to her party and a 180 from the direction Pakistan has been headed.
I never said you were a know-it-all, just that you are acting like one, and a douche, for criticizing everyone in this thread as being sheep. Its not just every editorial in every major newspaper that is calling Bhutto a martyr, flawed or not, its also the people of Pakistan, where her party has a majority of the support.
People have even stated in this thread that the majority of Pakistanis don't like her. She was twice elected prime minister in democratic elections.
One thing that has not changed is that Pakistan is balanced between military dictatorship and radical religous zealots.
"Democracy" and "democratic elections" are rather misleading terms in this context. She gave hope to many Pakistanis and she was a symbol, but she was not that popular. She was certainly more popular than Musharraf though.
And while the military dominated Pakistani politics from the beginning, radical Islamism is a rather new phenomenom of the last 30 years - especially in the context of the Mujaheddin movement in Afghanistan.
You've been conned into believing the whole false structure of adulation and mourning surrounding her is anything other than a media creation.
I've been away from this thread since I last posted, but you and Mad Drama are still just as obnoxious and irrelevant. Whether Bhutto has a flawed political history is obviously irrelevant to her importance there now, or as of a day ago. I'm not trying to sound like a broken record, but you never responded , so i'll repeat: She was challenging Musharef's elimination of civil rights; her party was/is the only democratic party that proposed a secular government; she came back to Pakistan knowing that the extremists (and possibly Mushareff) would want to kill her.
Its great if you want to act like a know it all in regards to Bhutto's history of corruption and other alleged crimes, but the fact that you are trying to twist that into an argument about how we have all been "duped" by the media is pathetic.
I'm not a know-it-all. But I know more than you do, as is obvious from your ridiculous account of Bhutto's aims in returning to Pakistan. It was a power-sharing arrangement, you idiot, promoted by Washington because Musharraf's unpopularity is dangerous.
And everybody -including me- is always in danger of being duped by the media.
There was no public agreement when Bhutto went back, and even if there was a secret agreement, that is still irrelevant to whether she was risking her life in returning and whether she would have brought a drastic change to Musharef's police state, even if he retained his power. Not to mention whether advocating a secular democratic government was unique to her party and a 180 from the direction Pakistan has been headed.
I never said you were a know-it-all, just that you are acting like one, and a douche, for criticizing everyone in this thread as being sheep. Its not just every editorial in every major newspaper that is calling Bhutto a martyr, flawed or not, its also the people of Pakistan, where her party has a majority of the support.
Believe what you wish. I choose to think that Bhutto -a criminal and an autocrat- would have held true to her ideals --enrich oneself at any cost, stifle opposition, and most recently, acquiesce to Washington's every desire in return for personal power... The proof was in the pudding, and the pudding was poisonous.
It's also worth noting that A LOT of countries and politicians either tolerated or actively supported radical Islamic fighters prior to September 11th - not just Bhutto.
I don't disagree with Mark's points but I also feel like heaping blame onto a dead person in reaction to claims of martyrdom is weird. It seems like it's more motivated as a reaction to popular opinion than any deep-seated belief that she was a really bad person. Nothing in this thread has really convinced me that she was much worse than many other politicians the world over.
I don't disagree with Mark's points but I also feel like heaping blame onto a dead person in reaction to claims of martyrdom is weird. It seems like it's more motivated as a reaction to popular opinion than any deep-seated belief that she was a really bad person.
Shall we dig up some of the opinions expressed in the "R.I.P. Ronald Reagan" thread?
A politician is a politician -- you are right about that.
It's also worth noting that A LOT of countries and politicians either tolerated or actively supported radical Islamic fighters prior to September 11th - not just Bhutto.
I don't disagree with Mark's points but I also feel like heaping blame onto a dead person in reaction to claims of martyrdom is weird. It seems like it's more motivated as a reaction to popular opinion than any deep-seated belief that she was a really bad person. Nothing in this thread has really convinced me that she was much worse than many other politicians the world over.
Nah, you're probably right, Jonny. Hell, Dick Cheney is worse than Bhutto.. The way political discourse gets muddied by media sentimentality does happen to be a pet peeve of mine. And I have a hangover!
It's also worth noting that A LOT of countries and politicians either tolerated or actively supported radical Islamic fighters prior to September 11th - not just Bhutto.
especially and unfortunately the US...
Bhutto barely had a choice in Pakistan, she had to tolerate them due to external pressure and internal pressure form the military.
I'm curious - does this mean we are supposed to assume her millions of supporters within Pakistan and abroad are completely misguided or have been hoodwinked? I don't dispute what you are saying, but I don't think she can be so easily dismissed as having been completely without purpose or merit in the representation of her people.
It's worth pointing out that one could substitute our current American president in here with this defense. It's dangerous to conflate populism into righteousness, especially with someone as divisive as Bhutto. I think it's terrible she got assassinated but I'm thinking more about the 20 people blown up as well yesterday, not to mention the 100+ massacred when they tried to kill her upon her return. I'm not blaming Bhutto for that but that larger tragedy is worth pointing out, especially as the Western press seems hell bent on beatifying her as a martyr.
but either way the first I heard of her return was when she, over the strong objections of the military and police, decided to have a big motorcade through a confined area where supporters thronged out to see her and provided a perfect opportunity (hence the resistance of the military) for a bombing, which actually did happen, and though it did not kill her, hundreds of her supporters were killed because she wanted to go out and be like "look at how many people love me." This wasn't necessarily a bad plan politically, but to drive a motorcade into an area where they were certain to get gridlocked (i.e. not moving at all) for several hours was her ego costing hundreds of her supporters their lives. More planning might have prevented that if she had kept the route clear, but hey, she's the one that matters.
Believe what you wish. I choose to think that Bhutto -a criminal and an autocrat- would have held true to her ideals --enrich oneself at any cost, stifle opposition, and most recently, acquiesce to Washington's every desire in return for personal power... The proof was in the pudding, and the pudding was poisonous.[/b]
And, apparently, the prose was purple. Ouch.
It's also worth noting that A LOT of countries and politicians either tolerated or actively supported radical Islamic fighters prior to September 11th - not just Bhutto.
I don't disagree with Mark's points but I also feel like heaping blame onto a dead person in reaction to claims of martyrdom is weird. It seems like it's more motivated as a reaction to popular opinion than any deep-seated belief that she was a really bad person. Nothing in this thread has really convinced me that she was much worse than many other politicians the world over.
Agreed.
Look, folks: people are not just notches under corresponding "good" and "evil" columns. The 60+ million people who voted against Bush were not just "liberals," and not everyone in jail truly deserves the condemnatory moniker "criminal." To be frank, all politicians of any international standing have blood on their hands. It's a fact. But it's short-sighted or politically biased to claim that any one man or woman is just black- or white-hatted (martyrs included). Save that shit for the stock Westerns or Michael Bay movies.
Really: It's just tacky to decry an assasinated leader (certainly not a dictator by most folks' criteria) within a funerary thread.
Comments
Right - but I didn't do that. All I said, which earned me a
heap of derision from the usual smug suspects, was that it has
to be a bit more complex than either "she's a martyr" or "ding
dong the witch is dead!" ... it's easy to sit at your keyboard
in the US and quote journalistic facts, it's another thing to
live in Pakistan and be forced to either support the opposition,
warts and all, or submit to absolute oppression. That is my only
point - whether she had the interests of the people in mind or not,
a great many had looked to her as a voice of hope and had stood by
her, and her murder speaks to a terrible situation that will only
get worse, and probably serves to crush that hope even further.
And why all this fuzz about chaos in Pakistan now? The situation has been rather turbulent for some time now. It might sound sarcastic, but in a huge country with 160 Million inhabitants a bomb blast here and there and a small riot here and there simply doesn??t mean chaos. The situation got worse recently as, for example, suicide bombings and riots happened in the capital as well, but most of the people do not really care about these things and want to live their life. They will certainly blame the US for their problems though.
and whoever cares for some well done written account regarding the recent development in Pakistan I recommend this
Exactly. Bhutto hoped this vile piece of legislation would result in charges being dropped against her in Spain, Switzerland and the UK, as it forgave everybody who'd ever looted the treasury!
Regardless of her checkered past, she did give an element of hope to the country. Sharif said it was "the saddest day in Pakistan's history", I believe that sentiment is shared by many of its citizens.
Perhaps not shared by the armchair quarterbacks listening to Placebo on mp3 in the comforts of their American home.
Not happy Bhutto died a violent death; not happy the usual craptastic elevation to martyr has begun in the media. I mean, it's not as though she was Princess Diana!
Maybe not.
But please post other major figures of which are Muslim women in world politics in the last 30 years.
1) Liaquat Ali Khan - Assassinated
2) Khawaja Nazimuddin - Forced To Resign
3) Muhammad Ali Bogra - Forced To Resign
4) Chaudhry Muhammad Ali - Resigned
5) Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy - Poisoned(alledgedly)
6) Ibrahim Ismail Chundrigar - Resigned after 2 months
7) Feroz Noon - Removed by Martial Law after 11 months
8) Mohammad Ayub Khan - Resigned
9) Nurul Amin - Removed by Martial Law after 3 weeks
10) Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto - Executed by Public Hanging
11) Muhammed Junejo - Removed by President
12) Benazir Bhutto - Exiled and later Assassinated
13) Ghulum Jatoi - Resigned after 3 months
14) Nawaz Sharif - Resigned & Arrested
15) Moeenuddin Qureshi - Interim Resigned now lives in U.S.
Maybe not exactly how you mean, but worth mentioning is Shirin Ebadi.
Political discourse is celebrity-driven these days. This is why you missed my (sarcastic) point re Diana, whose myth has grown to absurd and disgusting proportions. You've been conned into believing the whole false structure of adulation and mourning surrounding her is anything other than a media creation. Next up, Perky Pat!
Are you and Mad Drama living in Pakistan? Why do you take such an authoritative view on how the people view her? Why is/was her party the leading party in Pakistan?
I've been away from this thread since I last posted, but you and Mad Drama are still just as obnoxious and irrelevant. Whether Bhutto has a flawed political history is obviously irrelevant to her importance there now, or as of a day ago. I'm not trying to sound like a broken record, but you never responded , so i'll repeat: She was challenging Musharef's elimination of civil rights; her party was/is the only democratic party that proposed a secular government; she came back to Pakistan knowing that the extremists (and possibly Mushareff) would want to kill her.
Its great if you want to act like a know it all in regards to Bhutto's history of corruption and other alleged crimes, but the fact that you are trying to twist that into an argument about how we have all been "duped" by the media is pathetic.
You and Drama need to go stroke each other somewhere. The two of you sound like a bunch of douchebags.
for analysis of the actual assassination, and the previous attempt on her life, many recent entries here are interesting .... http://counterterrorismblog.org
I agree with you that people are often raised to sainthood/genius/courageous after death.
This thread has been the opposite. People in this thread have accused Bhutto of murder and torture and lots more. These are not things she is guilty of.
The charges against her are that she accepted kickbacks and used her power to enrich her family.
The other set of charges aginst her are best spelled out in the Al Tariq newstory posted above.
People have even stated in this thread that the majority of Pakistanis don't like her. She was twice elected prime minister in democratic elections.
One thing that has not changed is that Pakistan is balanced between military dictatorship and radical religous zealots.
The one thing that unifys all of the Pakistani leaders that Rock posted is they served at the grace of the military. If the military had supported Bhutto she would have remained PM dispite corruption charges. If they supported her she would not have been assinated. Just this week the NYT has run a series about the billions of dollars we have sent to Pakistan in the last 5 years that can't be acconted.
I'm not a know-it-all. But I know more than you do, as is obvious from your ridiculous account of Bhutto's aims in returning to Pakistan. It was a power-sharing arrangement, you idiot, promoted by Washington because Musharraf's unpopularity is dangerous.
And everybody -including me- is always in danger of being duped by the media.
There was no public agreement when Bhutto went back, and even if there was a secret agreement, that is still irrelevant to whether she was risking her life in returning and whether she would have brought a drastic change to Musharef's police state, even if he retained his power. Not to mention whether advocating a secular democratic government was unique to her party and a 180 from the direction Pakistan has been headed.
I never said you were a know-it-all, just that you are acting like one, and a douche, for criticizing everyone in this thread as being sheep. Its not just every editorial in every major newspaper that is calling Bhutto a martyr, flawed or not, its also the people of Pakistan, where her party has a majority of the support.
"Democracy" and "democratic elections" are rather misleading terms in this context.
She gave hope to many Pakistanis and she was a symbol, but she was not that popular. She was certainly more popular than Musharraf though.
And while the military dominated Pakistani politics from the beginning, radical Islamism is a rather new phenomenom of the last 30 years - especially in the context of the Mujaheddin movement in Afghanistan.
Believe what you wish. I choose to think that Bhutto -a criminal and an autocrat- would have held true to her ideals --enrich oneself at any cost, stifle opposition, and most recently, acquiesce to Washington's every desire in return for personal power... The proof was in the pudding, and the pudding was poisonous.
I don't disagree with Mark's points but I also feel like heaping blame onto a dead person in reaction to claims of martyrdom is weird. It seems like it's more motivated as a reaction to popular opinion than any deep-seated belief that she was a really bad person. Nothing in this thread has really convinced me that she was much worse than many other politicians the world over.
Shall we dig up some of the opinions expressed in the "R.I.P. Ronald Reagan" thread?
A politician is a politician -- you are right about that.
Nah, you're probably right, Jonny. Hell, Dick Cheney is worse than Bhutto.. The way political discourse gets muddied by media sentimentality does happen to be a pet peeve of mine. And I have a hangover!
especially and unfortunately the US...
Bhutto barely had a choice in Pakistan, she had to tolerate them due to external pressure and internal pressure form the military.
but either way the first I heard of her return was when she, over the strong objections of the military and police, decided to have a big motorcade through a confined area where supporters thronged out to see her and provided a perfect opportunity (hence the resistance of the military) for a bombing, which actually did happen, and though it did not kill her, hundreds of her supporters were killed because she wanted to go out and be like "look at how many people love me." This wasn't necessarily a bad plan politically, but to drive a motorcade into an area where they were certain to get gridlocked (i.e. not moving at all) for several hours was her ego costing hundreds of her supporters their lives. More planning might have prevented that if she had kept the route clear, but hey, she's the one that matters.
And, apparently, the prose was purple. Ouch.
Agreed.
Look, folks: people are not just notches under corresponding "good" and "evil" columns. The 60+ million people who voted against Bush were not just "liberals," and not everyone in jail truly deserves the condemnatory moniker "criminal." To be frank, all politicians of any international standing have blood on their hands. It's a fact. But it's short-sighted or politically biased to claim that any one man or woman is just black- or white-hatted (martyrs included). Save that shit for the stock Westerns or Michael Bay movies.
Really: It's just tacky to decry an assasinated leader (certainly not a dictator by most folks' criteria) within a funerary thread.